A "perfect" world. Can it exist?

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If there is no freewill, we will be like animals.

If there is no desires, then why freewill

If the world is perfect, our cells will never die, thus we don’t need any food. If we don’t eat, there is no “refuse” to recycle, thus no need for any “good bacteria” for there is nothing to “recycle”

I do not know what’s the problem in such a world. May be a little bit boring? Nothing to argue about, no internet debate. Imagine that.
 
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Hitetlen:
No, I was not thinking about heaven at all. What I said refers strictly to the world as we know it.

The basic tenet is that individuality creates scarcity, which is the source of “lacking” something that the individuals value. Nothing else was on my mind.
I have a tendency to believe something else was on your mind, but I don’t want to be accused of psychoanalizing you again.

There will be no perfect world in the temporal sense. This is the atheist/communist theory of utopia without God that is rearing its ugly head here. When times are good, fallen-man is wastefull. When times are bad, fallen-man is greedy; especially if the obtaining of power is in the offing.

There is no point for God to supply a perfect physical world to people with imperfect souls as they would corrupt the perfect world into imperfection, and eventually ruin, in no time. When God has perfected the faithful, and forever seperated the wheat from the chaff, (heaven and hell) then He will “make all things new again” supplying a perfect material world for perfect and incorruptable souls. Then you will have your perfect world.

But I fear that the atheist will never see it.

Thal59
 
The reason I can not take your post seriously is that the same power that would allow you to construct a world without all of the causes of suffering that you have removed would also be sufficient to remove the source of scarcity. That even conflict caused by individuality where more than one individual wants a given resource can be removed by replicating the specific resource.
Why does God not do that to remove that source of suffering, scarce resources? Because, though it would not remove free will, it would nullify it.
The potential for conflicts over scarce resources must exist in order to give individuals the choice to excercise free will to resolve the conflict.

Sorry that you conveniently disallowed a discussion of free will, especially when you are incorrect.

To make what I am saying clear. To remove the posibility of murder, wars, rapes and on and on… from the world, leads to the nullification of free will if you take things to the extreams you did in your post.
True, we would still be free to choose between McDonalds or Burger King for breakfast, but those acts of will are not the point of free will, they are a benifit. Free will exists so that humans are placed into a position to choose the moral life, to choose to be in a loving relationship with God.

Sorry to not please you by not mentioning free will.
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Hitetlen:
One of Liberian’s remarks started an interesting process in my mind. I was only talking about the fact that disallowing wars, murders and rapes would significantly decrease the amount of pain and suffering in the world. (Neither he nor I think that somehow preventing such atrocities would diminish our free will. So please don’t bring this up.)

He said, that there would be other causes for pain and suffering. I wonder if this is really correct. Let’s try to put together a “perfect” world, where the “free will” of humans is intact, but some natural laws would prevent such acts as murders, rapes and generally violent acts. What else can be problematic, which cannot be solved by omnipotence?

First, the “perfect” world could not contain carnivores. If only plants and herbivores would exist, there would be a lot less pain and suffering. Plants do not feel pain when herbivores eat them. Having carnivores immediately introduces pain and suffering. That is no big deal, there are vegetarian humans, and they function just fine. So carnivores are “out”.

The next problem is the microbes which are responsible for diseases. Most microbes are not harmful to ther hosts, they are very beneficial. We could not survive without the symbiotic relationship with millions of microbes in out digestive system. Actually, only a very small percentage (about 2%) of microbes is harmful, and essentially they are the unsuccessful ones - especially if they kill their host. A mutually beneficial relationship is better than a parasitic one. Therefore harmful microbes are also “out”.

What else can be problematic? Weather? No big deal: a uniformly comfortable weather is a piece of cake. Availability of food? No problem for an omnipotent being. Overcrowding and its result: scarcity of food can be easily remedied, by assuring that only a proper amount of births can occur. Most of the worlds problems occur due to scarcity of something, food and other resources.

There is one stumbling block, which is the result of individuality: different desires. As long as different individuals exist with individual desires, there will be conflicts, if no other time then during the selection of a mate. Imagine the Garden of Eden with two males and one female, or one male and two females. Assuming monogamy, it is unavoidable that someone will be “left out”, his or her biological needs will be left unfulfilled. But even with lack of monogamy, someone may be “undesirable” to a prospective partner, and thus unfulfilled desires may happen - which may not result in actual “pain”, but definitely in “discomfort”.

So my final conclusion: even without a desire to kill (although even herbivores sometimes engage in in lethal fights when selecting mates) and abundance of natural resources, as long as there is individuality, there will be conflicts and thus some kind of “suffering”. Therefore a “perfect” world, without any pain and/or suffering cannot exist as long as there are individuals with possibly conflicting desires.

Isn’t that interesting?

(Edited to add: By the way: mate selection is just an example; there could be other conflicts of interest)
 
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scm:
True, we would still be free to choose between McDonalds or Burger King for breakfast, but those acts of will are not the point of free will, they are a benifit. Free will exists so that humans are placed into a position to choose the moral life, to choose to be in a loving relationship with God.
Your post merely indicates that you have a different concept of “free will”, which is not necessarily shared by all believers, much less by atheists. Obviously you are “free” to define it as you please, we just shall not be able to reach a consensus. But that is hardly news. 🙂 Still, thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
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Hitetlen:
Your post merely indicates that you have a different concept of “free will”, which is not necessarily shared by all believers, much less by atheists. Obviously you are “free” to define it as you please, we just shall not be able to reach a consensus. But that is hardly news. 🙂 Still, thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Sorry, wrong. All of the belivers I am in contact with share my concept of “free will” and so do external references.

Somtimes when a person feels their position slipping away in a discussion they resort to the “we can not agree on the meaning of words” tactic. I did not expect you to do that.

I agree consensus is hopeless with you on this, but for another reason. I am not posting to reach a consensus with you. Sorry.
 
we had a perfect world. It is called Eden. We were created to live in a perfect world. Sin entered the world through the free will cooperation in evil by Adam and Eve, our first parents. When people stop sinning, the world will again be perfect. It will be called Heaven, the Kingdom, the Reign of God.
 
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scm:
Sorry, wrong. All of the belivers I am in contact with share my concept of “free will” and so do external references.
Not on this board. I could find examples.
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scm:
Somtimes when a person feels their position slipping away in a discussion they resort to the “we can not agree on the meaning of words” tactic. I did not expect you to do that.
That can be a tactic, or it is serious. Even basic concepts are defined differently by me and believers: like “good” and “evil”. Almost everyone (believers) define “evil” as an absence of “good”, which is sheer nonsense - if one considers that the absence of “good” entails “neutrality”, too. That is why there is so much miscommunication here.
 
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francisca:
If there is no freewill, we will be like animals.
leave animals in peace. i’m much closer to animals than to atheists.
 
Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. If we all did the Will of God, Earth could be like Heaven. Who could always do the Will of God? We would have to be in Heaven to do that! 😃
 
Hitetlen,

You seem so quiet. Is something the matter? That scm person has a point you know. You’re not a philosopher giving knew definitions to words. Look up freewill in the philisophical dictionary.

Adam
 
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adamlsp:
Hitetlen,

You seem so quiet. Is something the matter? That scm person has a point you know. You’re not a philosopher giving knew definitions to words. Look up freewill in the philisophical dictionary.

Adam
Nothing is the matter. The definition of free will is not really esoteric. As long as there are two choices, and one is free to select either one of them, it is free will. Of course, not all decisions are equally important, some have much more serious consequences than others. That is important, but does not affect the basics. As long as I have the freedom to choose chocolate ice-cream over vanilla, I have free will. That is all there is to it. It is not sensible to assert that only some choices matter, while others do not. That is truly redefining concepts to suit one’s agenda.

If you wish, show me a dictionary which assert that only certain decisions “qualify” as “true” free will, while other, equally free decisions do not.
 
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Hitetlen:
Nothing is the matter. The definition of free will is not really esoteric. As long as there are two choices, and one is free to select either one of them, it is free will. Of course, not all decisions are equally important, some have much more serious consequences than others. That is important, but does not affect the basics. As long as I have the freedom to choose chocolate ice-cream over vanilla, I have free will. That is all there is to it. It is not sensible to assert that only some choices matter, while others do not. That is truly redefining concepts to suit one’s agenda.

If you wish, show me a dictionary which assert that only certain decisions “qualify” as “true” free will, while other, equally free decisions do not.
Hitetlen,

You are absolutely right. No disagreement with anything you said. Choosing between chocolate and vanilla is as much a free choice as choosing between good and evil, though less important as you say. I think what we may be arguing is sufficient over insufficient freedom. If you can only choose choco or vanil then you have pretty limited freedom.

Another example is when someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do something. Yeah, you are free to do what they say or get shot but that’s not much freedom. It is insufficient freedom for everyday simple choices to be “choose one thing or die”. Though we do risk our life everyday in a different way. Socrates tells us that. And Blaise hammers it home.

These examples aren’t all inclusive. Try and make up your own counter examples for your wn argument to test its reliability. Try and se it from the other person’s point of view.

Adam
 
Why do I get the feeling that this is a set-up?

Atheist proof:
  1. God is supposed to be all powerful and all good, and therefore there should be no evil
  2. Evil exists
  3. Because evil exists there cannot be an all good, all powerful God.
    –3a. Either God could make a “perfect” world and doesn’t (in which case He’s not “all good”)
    –3b. Or God cannot make a “perfect” world (in which case He’s not all powerful)
Does that about sum it up?

Silly atheists…never any new arguments…😉

God Bless,
RyanL
 
im not perfect my chidre are not, y dog is not, my hme is not,God IS.
 
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adamlsp:
Hitetlen,

You are absolutely right. No disagreement with anything you said. Choosing between chocolate and vanilla is as much a free choice as choosing between good and evil, though less important as you say. I think what we may be arguing is sufficient over insufficient freedom. If you can only choose choco or vanil then you have pretty limited freedom.

Another example is when someone holds a gun to your head and tells you to do something. Yeah, you are free to do what they say or get shot but that’s not much freedom. It is insufficient freedom for everyday simple choices to be “choose one thing or die”. Though we do risk our life everyday in a different way. Socrates tells us that. And Blaise hammers it home.

These examples aren’t all inclusive. Try and make up your own counter examples for your wn argument to test its reliability. Try and se it from the other person’s point of view.

Adam
I cannot find anything incorrect about your post. I am somewhat confused what counter-arguments do you expect me to constuct? All I said that freedom to choose is to be able to select one of two or more options. We agree that not all choices are equally important, some may be trivial, some very important. To choose whether to kill someone is a very important choice, to choose one ice cream over another one is trivial. Even if someone would be able to choose to attempt to kill someone, but something would prevent him from doing so, the choice was there, but not the intended result.
 
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Hitetlen:
I cannot find anything incorrect about your post. I am somewhat confused what counter-arguments do you expect me to constuct? All I said that freedom to choose is to be able to select one of two or more options. We agree that not all choices are equally important, some may be trivial, some very important. To choose whether to kill someone is a very important choice, to choose one ice cream over another one is trivial. Even if someone would be able to choose to attempt to kill someone, but something would prevent him from doing so, the choice was there, but not the intended result.
Hitetlen,

If our choices never had any effect on others or the world in general our choices wouldn’t pack much if any power. The fact is in this world, choices have consequences and affect others’ choices. Causality is important. You cannot be something in “theory,” your actions reveal your character. Aristotle can fill you in further if you wish.

The reason why you may not see philosophers going on and on about really great worlds is the fact that we don’t live in those worlds and it is impracticle to have theory without practical use. There is no way you anyone can prove your world is the best or the worst. Our world cannot be proved this way or that either. Your question about the existence of a perfect world is pointless. What if the answer was yes then what does that help? And if the answer was no?

Adam
 
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adamlsp:
Hitetlen, Your question about the existence of a perfect world is pointless.
Hitetlen, Your life is pointless.
i mean, a life without God is pointless…
 
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adamlsp:
If our choices never had any effect on others or the world in general our choices wouldn’t pack much if any power.
Yes, but so what? Not all choices are equally important, we already agreed on that.
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adamlsp:
The fact is in this world, choices have consequences and affect others’ choices.
Well, some of our choices affect some other people. That is true again. I cannot see any action on my part which would have an effect on you - unless I could convince you that religion is nonsense, and you would abandon your faith. But that is hardly a probable outcome.
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adamlsp:
There is no way you anyone can prove your world is the best or the worst.
You speak in extremes again. What you say is true, but does not address the point: even without being able to prove whether this world is the best or the worst, we can easily prove that it is neither the best nor the worst - somewhere inbetween.
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adamlsp:
Your question about the existence of a perfect world is pointless. What if the answer was yes then what does that help? And if the answer was no?
Not pointless for me. If this is not the best possible world, which it is not, then God, if exists, is in some way deficient. Either he does not know, or cannot fix it, or does not care. If he knows it, and cares about it, but finds it impossible to fix it, then he is guilty of creating a lousy product, when he could have abstained from creating anything at all. Sometimes refraining from action is the best solution. This is one of those cases.
 
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Hitetlen:
Not pointless for me. If this is not the best possible world, which it is not, then God, if exists, is in some way deficient. Either he does not know, or cannot fix it, or does not care. If he knows it, and cares about it, but finds it impossible to fix it, then he is guilty of creating a lousy product, when he could have abstained from creating anything at all. Sometimes refraining from action is the best solution. This is one of those cases.
Ever read a book where all the characters are always happy and there’s no conflict, no twists and turns, no injustice followed by justice, and no sorrow turned to joy? Would that be considered to be a “perfect” book? Would the author of such a book be more or less respected than, say, Dostoyevsky?

Separate but related question…

Who do you respect more: a man who inherreted $50 million and has spent his life in luxury, existing entirely on something that was given to him and never actively trying to manage it in any way…or…a man who started with nothing and worked his way to $50 million?

God Bless,
RyanL
 
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