A personal relationship with Jesus

[CopticChristian]

Forgot to include this from the article:
What does it mean to have a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ”?
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Slinger,

It is late and this is lots of reading. I found difficulty understanding the thought process. I will analyze this and get back to you. It is not in my opinion an article that I would say is satisfactory.

In the meantime I found something that was interesting and makes sense. It confirms my suspicion about this Personal relationship paradigm…I am more in tune with a Corporate relationship that includes a personal relationship, a family relationship, kind of like Jesus is my older brother, God is father and we are all part of a family…this sounds more like what I read about Covenants and the plan of the Kingdom…did anyone in the OT have a personal relationship with David or Solomon…I believe that the people were part of the Kingdom and related to the King as subjects.

catholicapologetics.org/ap100000.htm

The term “personal relationship” is, first of all, not biblical. Neither word nor the compound phrase is found in the Bible. But then, neither are such terms as “Trinity”, “Incarnation”, “Eucharist”, “Lord’s Supper”, etc., found in the Bible.

The expression “personal relationship” comes neither from the language of the Bible nor from the history of Christian faith. **The expression comes from the humanist psychology of the last hundred years, principally that of Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers and Eric Fromm. It also has its roots in over emphasis on the attitude of rugged individualism of the early development of America. **

In using the expression “personal relationship” there is a danger in attempting to harmonize the formulas of the Bible with the formulas of psychology, psychiatry, and/or American nationalism. The language of the Bible and the languages of psychology, psychiatry, and nationalism reflect divergent perceptions and conceptualizations. Attempting to treat them as identical can only be artificial.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Do not cut and paste long articles from other websites.

 

[Randal796]

Hi there,

The whole personal relationship thing can actually become a way or form of isolation. I don’t need anyone else, it’s just me and Jesus. The main issue I have with it is that they package it with OSAS and make it seem like you finish as soon as you start. What I mean is, not only did you get on your favorite NFL team, you already won the Superbowl.

Ever notice most letters/epistles are written to churches not to individuals? There is something bordering on selfishness in the personal relationship only attitude. You fail to see how you can affect the whole group because there ceases to be a group.

You can become your own Pope and if someone says something to correct a wrong behavior or attitude, forget 'em. It’s just me and Jesus.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am curious about the meaning of a personal relationship with Jesus, I have been asked about mine, and while I feel I have a relationship with Christ it may not be the same thing. As a little background, I have worked with a member of a local Assembly of God who professes a deep personal relationship with Jesus, he is well versed in scripture and he speaks about the lord with fire and enthusiasm. Anyway, I understand that this is a very charismatic congregation, (speaking in tongues, discernment, prophesy, etc), and I think through that he has formed a somewhat invincible mentality when it comes to anything he “knows” from his personal relationship. Over the past 18 months working together I have seen and discussed some very uncharitable and prideful behavior which make me wonder about his relationship with the Lord. He feels he is absolutely guided by the Holy Spirit and has even conversed with Jesus, yet his behavior is contrary to what I would expect. (ie, no virtue of patience,wisdom, or charity) So my question is: Is there a danger in promoting the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus too strongly. When not properly formed, might it lead to a certain amount of hubris that can easily lead a person astray, especially if its not measured against anything but personal belief?

Sullia,

I see that my reference to a website is gone and for that reason I will post it again…I did not click and paste a long article, just an excerpt…

catholicapologetics.org/ap100000.htm

The expression “personal relationship” comes neither from the language of the Bible nor from the history of Christian faith. The expression comes from the humanist psychology of the last hundred years, principally that of Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers and Eric Fromm. It also has its roots in over emphasis on the attitude of rugged individualism of the early development of America.

In using the expression “personal relationship” there is a danger in attempting to harmonize the formulas of the Bible with the formulas of psychology, psychiatry, and/or American nationalism. The language of the Bible and the languages of psychology, psychiatry, and nationalism reflect divergent perceptions and conceptualizations. Attempting to treat them as identical can only be artificial.

This is one point of view that may answer some questions. In the long run the relationship is corporate and not individual…as part of the body of Christ you are members of one body with your older brother and with each other…this is what is missing in the Personal relationship…me & Jesus is confused with me & Jesus…Christ is head of the Church, The Body of Christ is the Church…to have that relationship you must incorporate yourself as directed…take two aspirins and call me in the morning…

 

[AlwaysCurious]

Hi there,

The whole personal relationship thing can actually become a way or form of isolation. I don’t need anyone else, it’s just me and Jesus. The main issue I have with it is that they package it with OSAS and make it seem like you finish as soon as you start. What I mean is, not only did you get on your favorite NFL team, you already won the Superbowl.

Ever notice most letters/epistles are written to churches not to individuals? There is something bordering on selfishness in the personal relationship only attitude. You fail to see how you can affect the whole group because there ceases to be a group.

You can become your own Pope and if someone says something to correct a wrong behavior or attitude, forget 'em. It’s just me and Jesus.

In my evangelical Protestant days, this is also what I noticed, or at least I noticed it in retrospect. Very individualistic. And the connection to OSAS is apt–there is essentially no need for growth in holiness when you “know” your relationship is your unfalsifiable, unassailable ticket to heaven. Everything on earth becomes a twiddling of the thumbs, and Jesus becomes an imaginary friend who looks, acts, and thinks a lot like…me.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi there,

The whole personal relationship thing can actually become a way or form of isolation. I don’t need anyone else, it’s just me and Jesus. The main issue I have with it is that they package it with OSAS and make it seem like you finish as soon as you start. What I mean is, not only did you get on your favorite NFL team, you already won the Superbowl.

Ever notice most letters/epistles are written to churches not to individuals? There is something bordering on selfishness in the personal relationship only attitude. You fail to see how you can affect the whole group because there ceases to be a group.

You can become your own Pope and if someone says something to correct a wrong behavior or attitude, forget 'em. It’s just me and Jesus.

Randal,

This is a remnant of the notion that you don’t need the OHCAC and if that is true and all you need is a Bible…it is a self fulfilling prophesy of no authority but me…

Then when you read that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth, the means by which Gentiles are fellow heirs with Jews and it is the mystery hidden for all ages through which the manifold wisdom of God is known…you have to ignore it or address it…when you address it you then realize that it is not me and Jesus all by myself.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

I know what you mean. I went to a more charasmatic church as well. I went through a period when I felt God wanted me to do more with my Faith. Share it, live it out better for others to see by acts of love and charity. They told me it was wrong to want to feel you needed to do more “good works.” I explained I felt people were not saved by acts alone, but that faith and works were practically inseperable. Can you have one without the other? And if you had works without faith, would they be genuine good works or just a human sinners best attempt?
Anyways, they did not accept this view well at all. They spoke against Catholicism, which I feel is probably a more valid church than that one in it’s teachings. Everything is about salvation, but they have no belief that salvation needs to be life changing.
I think you NEED to measure where your relationship is with Christ, but part of finding that out is asking yourself, “How well do you follow Christ’s lead?” Do you believe what He said and try to live it out? A relationship with Christ cannot be “Cut and paste.” I’ve learned that I need to believe all of Christ’s words to be His follower. You cannot just say, “Okay, I like this verse, so I’ll follow that.”
There are points where you grow deeper into a relationship with HIm, but I don’t believe you need to be “dancing on a chair” to have that. You need something a lot deeper.

 

[losh14]

This is such a good conversation! I agree with much of what is said here and I’ll add a point.

I think that Christ calls us to a faith that is personal and not just institutional. That is to say, we must take our faith with us and live it out all week, not just go through the motions at Mass or pay service to a creed or recite a prayer. All that the Church does is a model for life with Christ and that model is meant to be incorporated fully into your walk with the Lord.

Consider the Our Father - a prayer that all of us says at least weekly if we attend Mass, and hopefully more often. Think of what you ask when you pray it - “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”. What a profound declaration of trust, as if to say “I submit to you my day, my world, my being, my thoughts, my habits and I ask that you rule them”. To take this statement of our faith internally is to really surrender ourselves to the Lord.

Please don’t take me to demean the communal aspect of our faith, which bmullins states very well:

EVERY relationship is a personal relationship. But Christianity is not just a personal relationship but a communal one. It’s a family bond. Reducing it to just ‘me and God’ removes the entire family of God that is given you when you come under the covenant.

We are called to worship and live as family, and also as individuals. Having a personal relationship with the Lord means recognizing and living this dual experience of Christ approaching us:

God has commanded us to love Him above all. And to love God is to love our parents, our neighbors, the least of our brethren, even our enemies. So how is that personal?

Another personal aspect of our faith is that we may directly approach Christ - in the Eucharist, in the Word, in prayer, in imitation, in silence, in service, and always in love. If you feel like you’re not celebrating this direct access to the Lord that we have enough, include a devotion to Christ in your daily prayers, or some songs that praise Him, but whatever barriers you feel you have between you and Him, let go of them.

There are certainly Scriptural supports to the above kind of personal faith - a really good treatise (one that has received an imprimatur) is “The Born-Again Catholic” by Boudreau. He makes the case that Christ wants us to approach Him personally, though he doesn’t posit it as a requisite for or proof of salvation, merely an indication that we are maturing in faith and on the road of Grace.

Where relying upon a “personal relationship” as a model of faith can be dangerous:

• If it breaks away from the familial aspect of faith:

The whole personal relationship thing can actually become a way or form of isolation. I don’t need anyone else, it’s just me and Jesus.

• If it is the exclusive means of salvation (ignoring all the mandates in Scripture to live a holy and self-denying life pleasing to God):

…In a nutshell, it is faith alone that saves, and nothing we can actually do has any effect on salvation…I do have problems with the emphasis on a personal relationship with Christ. Though I have a relationship with him, I feel that it is a over simplification on salvation.

• When the leap from “faith alone” to “personal relationship” to “Jesus is my best friend” becoming the rule of discipleship. To echo Jesusismyfriend, Christ said “you are my friends if you keep my commands”

I think you NEED to measure where your relationship is with Christ, but part of finding that out is asking yourself, “How well do you follow Christ’s lead?” Do you believe what He said and try to live it out?

And it’s often difficult to have conversations with our self-described “Bible-believing” brethren because terms like “Born-Again” and “personal relationship” are not defined in Scripture and so are very open to interpretation:

You can ask your friend to point out in the Bible where it says anything about having a personal relationship with Jesus, and what that means, or how to achieve it.

The Lord loves us passionately - “I am a jealous God” He says, and there is no jealousy without passionate love, and He wants us to be with Him in Heaven eternally, so much so that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life (Jn 3:16) - and that belief is no mere mental assent but our obedience and love, turning our whole being towards our God.

 

[losh14]

One more thought - if Scripture describes our bodies as a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19), then why do we never hear the phrase “personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?” It would seem that, Biblically at least, the relationship with the Spirit would be even MORE personal.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

Yeah. It is very individualistic. Most people who say they have a “relationship with Christ” tend to look down their noses on Christians who struggle with sins. People who struggle with sins, such as homosexuality, are told they are not “true believers.” The Bible says “all temptations… are common to man.” This causes me to think that it is a sin that anyone can struggle with. The question is, is it temptation, or are they living that as a lifestyle? I was told by many people that Christians cannot struggle with that temptation. If you do, you are not really “saved.”
And it’s all about Satan’s lies. A person can be convicted of sin by the holy spirit and have a Christian tell them the devil was lying to them. So they are being led to believe that “an act of God was an act of the devil.” Really confusing.
The one thing that stands out, is it is all about feelings. If you feel you are saved, you are. If you feel you are living a good life, you are. What about facts and reality?

 

[JustaServant]

Hi there,

The whole personal relationship thing can actually become a way or form of isolation. I don’t need anyone else, it’s just me and Jesus. The main issue I have with it is that they package it with OSAS and make it seem like you finish as soon as you start. What I mean is, not only did you get on your favorite NFL team, you already won the Superbowl.

Ever notice most letters/epistles are written to churches not to individuals? There is something bordering on selfishness in the personal relationship only attitude. You fail to see how you can affect the whole group because there ceases to be a group.

You can become your own Pope and if someone says something to correct a wrong behavior or attitude, forget 'em. It’s just me and Jesus.

Let’s not forget the Epistle to Philemon.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is such a good conversation! I agree with much of what is said here and I’ll add a point.

**I think that Christ calls us to a faith that is personal and not just institutional. **That is to say, we must take our faith with us and live it out all week, not just go through the motions at Mass or pay service to a creed or recite a prayer. All that the Church does is a model for life with Christ and that model is meant to be incorporated fully into your walk with the Lord.

Consider the Our Father - a prayer that all of us says at least weekly if we attend Mass, and hopefully more often. Think of what you ask when you pray it - “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”. What a profound declaration of trust, as if to say “I submit to you my day, my world, my being, my thoughts, my habits and I ask that you rule them”. To take this statement of our faith internally is to really surrender ourselves to the Lord.

Please don’t take me to demean the communal aspect of our faith, which bmullins states very well:

We are called to worship and live as family, and also as individuals. Having a personal relationship with the Lord means recognizing and living this dual experience of Christ approaching us:

Another personal aspect of our faith is that we may directly approach Christ - in the Eucharist, in the Word, in prayer, in imitation, in silence, in service, and always in love. If you feel like you’re not celebrating this direct access to the Lord that we have enough, include a devotion to Christ in your daily prayers, or some songs that praise Him, but whatever barriers you feel you have between you and Him, let go of them.

There are certainly Scriptural supports to the above kind of personal faith - a really good treatise (one that has received an imprimatur) is “The Born-Again Catholic” by Boudreau. He makes the case that Christ wants us to approach Him personally, though he doesn’t posit it as a requisite for or proof of salvation, merely an indication that we are maturing in faith and on the road of Grace.

Where relying upon a “personal relationship” as a model of faith can be dangerous:

• If it breaks away from the familial aspect of faith:
• If it is the exclusive means of salvation (ignoring all the mandates in Scripture to live a holy and self-denying life pleasing to God):
• When the leap from “faith alone” to “personal relationship” to “Jesus is my best friend” becoming the rule of discipleship. To echo Jesusismyfriend, Christ said “you are my friends if you keep my commands”

And it’s often difficult to have conversations with our self-described “Bible-believing” brethren because terms like “Born-Again” and “personal relationship” are not defined in Scripture and so are very open to interpretation:

The Lord loves us passionately - “I am a jealous God” He says, and there is no jealousy without passionate love, and He wants us to be with Him in Heaven eternally, so much so that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life (Jn 3:16) - and that belief is no mere mental assent but our obedience and love, turning our whole being towards our God.

I agree with doing both personal and insitutional, not one or the other or one at the expense of the other. I am part of my family and relate to them however relate to those individuals differently than the group.

 

[Holly3278]

I am a devout Roman Catholic and I am also an orthodox Roman Catholic. I consider myself to have a very strong personal relationship with Jesus Christ. My relationship with Him is strengthened every time I receive Him in the most holy Eucharist.

 

[sulliaa8]

I am a devout Roman Catholic and I am also an orthodox Roman Catholic. I consider myself to have a very strong personal relationship with Jesus Christ. My relationship with Him is strengthened every time I receive Him in the most holy Eucharist.

Could you expand upon that? I am curious from an orthodox view what a personal relationship is to you. I know there is no formula to a relationship with the Savior, but I am very interested in how you define it against what others may feel.

Sullia,

I see that my reference to a website is gone and for that reason I will post it again…I did not click and paste a long article, just an excerpt…

catholicapologetics.org/ap100000.htm

Thank you for the link, I really liked this:
"This new life of the Christian is directly a participation in the life of Christ, is the life of a member, joined with the Head, in the Body of Christ which is the Church. "

Another personal aspect of our faith is that we may directly approach Christ - in the Eucharist, in the Word, in prayer, in imitation, in silence, in service, and always in love. If you feel like you’re not celebrating this direct access to the Lord that we have enough, include a devotion to Christ in your daily prayers, or some songs that praise Him, but whatever barriers you feel you have between you and Him, let go of them.
.

Yes, Yes! Maybe we are speaking past each other on this issue (not you and me) but that is my idea of a relationship. While I do partake of him individually, my relationship is no more or less blessed than anyone else. I don’t know if that comes across right but I think as his Church we do this individually and communally.

Yeah.
And it’s all about Satan’s lies. A person can be convicted of sin by the holy spirit and have a Christian tell them the devil was lying to them. So they are being led to believe that “an act of God was an act of the devil.” Really confusing. The one thing that stands out, is it is all about feelings. If you feel you are saved, you are. If you feel you are living a good life, you are. What about facts and reality?

Exactly where I think the problems can arise. Sometimes it seems the idea of a personal relationship means being impervious to sin. Even when you commit one, it is ok because Jesus or the HS would have prevented it had it truly been wrong.

I really am enjoying the discussions here, thank you to everyone.

 

[CopticChristian]

This is such a good conversation! I agree with much of what is said here and I’ll add a point.

I think that Christ calls us to a faith that is personal and not just institutional. That is to say, we must take our faith with us and live it out all week, not just go through the motions at Mass or pay service to a creed or recite a prayer. All that the Church does is a model for life with Christ and that model is meant to be incorporated fully into your walk with the Lord.

Consider the Our Father - a prayer that all of us says at least weekly if we attend Mass, and hopefully more often. Think of what you ask when you pray it - “Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven”. What a profound declaration of trust, as if to say “I submit to you my day, my world, my being, my thoughts, my habits and I ask that you rule them”. To take this statement of our faith internally is to really surrender ourselves to the Lord.

Please don’t take me to demean the communal aspect of our faith, which bmullins states very well:

We are called to worship and live as family, and also as individuals. Having a personal relationship with the Lord means recognizing and living this dual experience of Christ approaching us:

Another personal aspect of our faith is that we may directly approach Christ - in the Eucharist, in the Word, in prayer, in imitation, in silence, in service, and always in love. If you feel like you’re not celebrating this direct access to the Lord that we have enough, include a devotion to Christ in your daily prayers, or some songs that praise Him, but whatever barriers you feel you have between you and Him, let go of them.

There are certainly Scriptural supports to the above kind of personal faith - a really good treatise (one that has received an imprimatur) is “The Born-Again Catholic” by Boudreau. He makes the case that Christ wants us to approach Him personally, though he doesn’t posit it as a requisite for or proof of salvation, merely an indication that we are maturing in faith and on the road of Grace.

Where relying upon a “personal relationship” as a model of faith can be dangerous:

• If it breaks away from the familial aspect of faith:
• If it is the exclusive means of salvation (ignoring all the mandates in Scripture to live a holy and self-denying life pleasing to God):
• When the leap from “faith alone” to “personal relationship” to “Jesus is my best friend” becoming the rule of discipleship. To echo Jesusismyfriend, Christ said “you are my friends if you keep my commands”

And it’s often difficult to have conversations with our self-described “Bible-believing” brethren because terms like “Born-Again” and “personal relationship” are not defined in Scripture and so are very open to interpretation:

The Lord loves us passionately - “I am a jealous God” He says, and there is no jealousy without passionate love, and He wants us to be with Him in Heaven eternally, so much so that He gave His only Son, Jesus, that whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life (Jn 3:16) - and that belief is no mere mental assent but our obedience and love, turning our whole being towards our God.

If Jesus wanted to teach us about a personl relationship he would have spoken the Our
Father this way…

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give me this day my daily bread.

12‘And forgive me my debts, as I also have forgiven my debtors.

13‘And do not lead me into temptation, but deliver me from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]

and He did not…

 

[CopticChristian]

One more thought - if Scripture describes our bodies as a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 6:19), then why do we never hear the phrase “personal relationship with the Holy Spirit?” It would seem that, Biblically at least, the relationship with the Spirit would be even MORE personal.

Iosh,

In particular because Jesus said He would send another Paraclete…Paraclete is here…ain’t no one acknolwedging that?

 

[CopticChristian]

Yeah. It is very individualistic. Most people who say they have a “relationship with Christ” tend to look down their noses on Christians who struggle with sins. People who struggle with sins, such as homosexuality, are told they are not “true believers.” The Bible says “all temptations… are common to man.” This causes me to think that it is a sin that anyone can struggle with. The question is, is it temptation, or are they living that as a lifestyle? I was told by many people that Christians cannot struggle with that temptation. If you do, you are not really “saved.”
And it’s all about Satan’s lies. A person can be convicted of sin by the holy spirit and have a Christian tell them the devil was lying to them. So they are being led to believe that “an act of God was an act of the devil.” Really confusing.
The one thing that stands out, is it is all about feelings. If you feel you are saved, you are. If you feel you are living a good life, you are. What about facts and reality?

Paul had a thorn in his side.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am a devout Roman Catholic and I am also an orthodox Roman Catholic. I consider myself to have a very strong personal relationship with Jesus Christ. My relationship with Him is strengthened every time I receive Him in the most holy Eucharist.

Holly,

Have you ever gone to communion alone? Just wondering.

 

[Randal796]

Let’s not forget the Epistle to Philemon.

This is why I said most. There is also Jude and Titus and 1 & 2 Timothy

 

[TarkanAttila]

It’s not that I’m not thankful for God’s love for me, and it’s not that I don’t want to follow Him. I do, even though the world drags me down.

But this phrase… ueeegh. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know we are to be thankful for God’s goodness, and love His goodness by obeying Him. But is that really the same thing as a “personal relationship”? To me it comes off as being Christ’s “buddy”, and Christ is your “buddy”. (If you’ve ever seen the “Buddy Christ” statue from Dogma, maybe you understand why I grimace in disgust at the idea.)

I get seeing God as a father. Yes, you can enjoy your time with God. No, you don’t always have to be in abject fear and terror and solemnity. Or say the Rosary or the Liturgy of the Hours. I get that. At the same time… I don’t see my God or my father the way I’d see my friends. A father is a person you listen to, respect, and obey out of gratitude and a desire to serve. I would die for my father.

A “personal relationship” seems too informal to me. I need a guide. A director. A father. Not a “personal relationship”.