A Plea for Atheists

[tGette]

Atheists,

Let all of us religious and God-believing folk pretend that you are right and that there is no God.

My questions for you are:

What is the purpose?
Why are we here?
Where did evolution get its intelligence from?

You claim to be so smart that you have proven billions of people wrong about God and the meaning of life. So certainly you can answer these questions.

Thank you!

 

[dok]

Hmmm … not many atheists on CAF. Go figure.

I’m not an atheist, but I’ll play one on the forum: Just because you would like to have a purpose to life doesn’t mean there is one. Yes, we would all like to think that this isn’t all there is, that there is something eternal and grand to look forward to, but wishing for it doesn’t make it so.

Why couldn’t intelligence evolve from random processes? We certainly see evolution happening before our eyes in the natural world. The universe has all the time in the world, so to speak.

 

[Paul2274]

"And in this corner…"

you sound angry?

Paul

 

[reen12]

I think that there are some human beings who cannot
wrap their minds around a deity who would even threaten
‘flames that never quench.’

flames that never quench = out of control, barbaric deity?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Fear rather Him who can throw both body and soul into Hell.

More of the same?

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev. 20:14

Yet human beings work themselves to near exhaustion, trying to
relieve the terrible suffering of a burn victim.
Human beings are more merciful than deity?

reen12

 

[notsmart]

I dont claim I am “so smart” (see my name) and I am so far, still an unbeliever, but slowly open to the idea of exploring christianity.

I dont know if I would have called myself an atheist like my parents did, I just looked at it as I did not care, whereas they were what you would call “millitant atheists” (thats what their friends who were christian called them anyway)

I dont recall giving any care as to what or why christians did what they did, or their “arguments” to prove anything because in my personal experience (anecdotal evidence is not worth much) I never met a single christian who was any better a person than anyone else. This caused me to deduce, maybe wrongly, that it wasn’t “working” so, it therefore, was not worth investigating.

Finally I got to the point of seeing it another way, that failures of individuals are just that.

This, is everywhere in and out of religion of course.

I am not sure I care about the kind of provocative argument presented here, but my intent for posting is that you realize you may have been painting non believers into a sterotype mold, one size fits all, and are coming off a bit condescending with your starting out with a slam like this.

If I was not already interested in my investigation, and this was what I thought all christians thought about people like me, I would most definately never persue it farther.

Just letting you know, and dont worry I am not offended or anything.

Sincerely,

Monica

 

[tGette]

Paul2274, notsmart, reen12,and dok,
I appreciate your replies!

First, I am not angry. I have realized now I need to put a little more thought into starting a thread because I forget that over the internet a lot of a conversation (body language, voice, etc.) is lost and certain words can come off as sounding rude, arrogant, etc.

For that I apologize!

I was not trying to convey any hatred or anger. I was more simply trying to gain a bit more of an understanding as to the thought process of different atheists (having been one myself). I was not trying to clump them into one generic category as to stereotype them; I was merely posing a question in hopes that some would answer.

dok,
I do know for sure there are a least a handful of atheists on the CAF and I figured if I could at least get a few opinions it would be a start.

Also, (which I forgot to convey) was that I was not necessarily trying to get an atheist to look at a Christian perspective, more just at the general perspective of belief in a higher power (religion aside).

Anyways…I apologize if my post seemed rude or anything. It was a healthy reminder that I need to think more about how I word threads when I start them.

Thanks

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think that there are some human beings who cannot
wrap their minds around a deity who would even threaten
‘flames that never quench.’

flames that never quench = out of control, barbaric deity?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/FlamesforOTstory2-3.jpg

Fear rather Him who can throw both body and soul into Hell.

More of the same?

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev. 20:14

Yet human beings work themselves to near exhaustion, trying to
relieve the terrible suffering of a burn victim.
Human beings are more merciful than deity?

reen12

‘What the hell are you getting so upset about?’ he asked her bewilderedly in a tone of contrite amusement. ‘I thought you didn’t believe in God.’

‘I don’t,’ she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. ‘But the God I don’t believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He’s not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be.’

Yossarian laughed and turned her arms loose. ‘Let’s have a little more religious freedom between us,’ he proposed obligingly. ‘You don’t believe in the God you want to, and I won’t believe in the God I want to. Is that a deal?’

(Catch-22, by Joseph Heller)

 

[cheddarsox]

Atheists,

Let all of us religious and God-believing folk pretend that you are right and that there is no God.

My questions for you are:

What is the purpose?
Why are we here?
Where did evolution get its intelligence from?

You claim to be so smart that you have proven billions of people wrong about God and the meaning of life. So certainly you can answer these questions.

Thank you!

What is the purpose of what?

We are here because the conditions were such that life forms like ours arose.

Intelligence evolved because sentience proved to be a useful factor for some critters to get their biological needs met. Some critters don’t need it, they have other adaptations that help them get their needs met. It evolved the same way other brain functions did, by mutations, the ones that proved useful stuck around. Brain function is a factor of physiology.

I don’t recall ever crowing about being “smart” and I have not sought to prove billions wrong about God. What’s with the attitude?

I am atheistic in that I do not believe in a personal deity, but I do recognize the Universe as the ultimate reality and practice the religion of Natural pantheism.

I think many “why” questions that people ask…on an ultimate level, are based on confused theology. On one hand, people claim that there is a perfect and complete source, but then they posit that it has why’s and reasons like us mortal, finite, relatively powerless humans have…as if it has the same issues, needs, etc.

Purpose, and whys motivate us to do what it takes to get our needs met, but a complete and perfect source wouldn’t need reasons, it wouldn’t need motivation.

It is what it is. The questions keep us busy, but I think they are our questions, not ultimate questions. We make up answers that inspire and motivate us to do what we need to meet the challenges of life, and that is fine, but that doesn’t mean those answers reflect ultimate truth, even though they meet human need.

 

[cheese_sdc]

I’m not an atheist, I’m in a more of “I really don’t know and I’m okay with that” place right now.

What is the purpose?

Of life? Whatever you choose for it to be.

Why are we here?

See above.

Where did evolution get its intelligence from?

I like Cheddarsox’s explanation.

 

[tGette]

Though I did not intend for it to sound rude, my comment about atheists being “smart” most likely came from my exposure to so many atheists who belittle believers (of any religion) and claim we are simple minded and stupid because we believe such fantasy. A lot claim they are intellectually superior to those of us who hold a belief in God…especially religion…and in turn are bigots about it. (I know this is not the case for every atheist)

It is quite amazing the amount of people who have an open disdain for religion and belief in God.

I do, however, sympathize with people who do not believe (again I used to be one). Especially because you see how Christians and those among different religions treat each other and it can be a very big turn-off.

 

[Sideline]

What is the purpose?

I don’t believe that there was a purpose for my life, or a purpose for life in general. Human beings aren’t tools created for some specific purpose. We are living beings.

We have the ability to find meaning, however. Most of us find meaning in the choices we make. We chose a certain path because it fits our concept of the type of people we are, or seems like it will lead us where we want to go.

Why are we here?

Because our parents had sex, and we won the lottery. The same thing goes for our ancestors and their ancestors.

I wasn’t there when life started, but I can only assume it started because conditions were favourable.

Where did evolution get its intelligence from?

Evolution is intelligent? This is news to me.

You claim to be so smart that you have proven billions of people wrong about God and the meaning of life. So certainly you can answer these questions.

Who are you talking about? Certainly not me.

Atheists don’t believe in god, but we don’t all think we are smarter than believers. St. Thomas Aquinas was clearly more intelligent that I am. So was Newton, but that doesn’t mean that he was right about time being absolute. (I really know nothing about physics, so if I made a mistake there, just substitute in something else about which Newton was wrong.)

Being right about whether there is a god isn’t an intelligence test.

 

[Sideline]

Though I did not intend for it to sound rude, my comment about atheists being “smart” most likely came from my exposure to so many atheists who belittle believers (of any religion) and claim we are simple minded and stupid because we believe such fantasy. A lot claim they are intellectually superior to those of us who hold a belief in God…especially religion…and in turn are bigots about it. (I know this is not the case for every atheist)

I said in an earlier post that disbelieving in a god doesn’t make people smarter, but I would add that atheism certainly doesn’t make people more tactful either.

 

[tGette]

Sideline,
I appreciate your reply!

I know my OP has caused people to think I was being rude or mad and again I know I need to be more careful about how I word things.

My intention was to provoke some thought and not to sound condescending.

I appreciate you giving your two cents!

One thing I think about though is:
You said we are all here because our parents chose to have sex and so on and so on down the line through history. Meaning none of us actually chose to be here. And something would have had to come into existence without the use of sex…right? So…with regards to evolution…at what point did inanimate objects begin to become independant beings? I guess this would lead into a big evolutionary discussion, one I do not feel like expounding upon because it would involve some speculation…Just a thought!

 

[Sideline]

Sideline,
I appreciate your reply!

Thanks.

I know my OP has caused people to think I was being rude or mad and again I know I need to be more careful about how I word things.

I caught that… unfortunately, I caught it after I posted.

One thing I think about though is:
You said we are all here because our parents chose to have sex and so on and so on down the line through history. Meaning none of us actually chose to be here. And something would have had to come into existence without the use of sex…right?

Yuppers!

So…with regards to evolution…at what point did inanimate objects begin to become independant beings? I guess this would lead into a big evolutionary discussion, one I do not feel like expounding upon because it would involve some speculation…Just a thought!

I touched on that very, very briefly. As far as we know, between 4.4billion years ago and 2.7 billion years ago, the conditions were favourable for life to start on the planet. How this happened, no one knows for sure. There are many theories, and I have my favourite, but like you said that will derail this conversation faster than you can say abiogenesis.

 

[tGette]

I guess that is where atheism confuses me. Because there is this clear belief that there was matter and somehow it turned into living things all because certain conditions were perfect for it. (I am not trying to disprove evolution, by the way.)

Yet…(religion aside)…people cannot accept that a “higher power” put that matter there and caused the conditions to be just right?
I guess I am partly asking for myself because I used to be an atheist and I cannot even remember how I rationalized the belief.

Though, because of this, I know it is possible and I always have to remind myself that people do genuinely disbelieve in God (again, religion aside).

Sideline, et me ask you:
Since you are not religious…are you a deist or a theist?

 

[Sideline]

I guess that is where atheism confuses me. Because there is this clear belief that there was matter and somehow it turned into living things all because certain conditions were perfect for it. (I am not trying to disprove evolution, by the way.)

Well, I know that life had to begin somehow. I know, through various experiments that have been conducted, that non-organic chemicals can combine to form organic compounds under the right conditions. I also know that it is quite likely that these conditions match conditions found on Earth during the period I described.

I know that the odds were stacked against it happening in any particular location on Earth, or indeed on any particular planet. But the universe, as vast as it is, has a lot of laboratories. And the odds of at least one of them turning up life in such a manner seems pretty good.

Put it this way. The odds of me being conceived seem pretty slight when we consider all of the things that had to happen. Not only did I have to win that lottery, there had to be a lottery. Which means that all of my ancestors had to win the lottery was well. The odds of me being me are so slight, it seems impossible. But if it had gone another way, all it would mean is that different people would have existed instead or this entire line of humanity wouldn’t have existed at all.

If things hadn’t turned out this way, they would have been another way. There isn’t any preordained reason it should be this way. This just happens to be the way that leads to people asking why it was this way.

Yet…(religion aside)…people cannot accept that a “higher power” put that matter there and caused the conditions to be just right?
I guess I am partly asking for myself because I used to be an atheist and I cannot even remember how I rationalized the belief.

I wouldn’t argue that there could not have been a god who determined things would be this way. I just don’t see any reason to suppose there was. I used to be a Catholic and I found it very upsetting trying to reconcile the idea of a loving god with the way I saw the world working. The world makes a lot more sense for me if I assumed there is no god, than if I assumed a god. It’s not that I deny God could exist. I just don’t think He*** does*** exist.

Though, because of this, I know it is possible and I always have to remind myself that people do genuinely disbelieve in God (again, religion aside).

So I take it the world doesn’t make much sense to you if you were to take out the idea that there is a god?

Sideline, et me ask you:
Since you are not religious…are you a deist or a theist?

I don’t believe there is a god, but I find that people are generally nicer to you if you say you aren’t religious, rather than you are an atheist. I’m not sure if I’ve misread your question, do you consider atheist a religion?

 

[tGette]

In my question I meant to say: " are you atheist, deist, or theist"
I certainly do not consider atheism a religion.

No, the world does make no sense to me without a belief in God.

Now…with religion out of the picture…this is not to say that said God is not the “evil genius” and also created evil. When I pulled out of my atheistic beliefs years ago this was loosely what I held my belief in God to be.

Just because we do not like the state of the world is no reason for me to disbelief in a “higher power”. For example…just because someone had abusive parents does not cause them to not exist…whether you want to believe it or not.

I equate the idea of a loving God to that of a loving parent. A loving parent is going to let their child make mistakes and though they offer unconditional love to their child there is a certain point when the parent has to let the child live their own life without being their to tend to their every need. Though, if the child came back after having failed at life, a loving parent would also do what is in their power to care once again for their child.

I sympathize with people who reject religion for this very reason. I know I find myself in prayer expressing to God how unfair I think it is that none of us chose to be here and yet we are born into a world with such terrible things occuring.

 

[Sideline]

I certainly do not consider atheism a religion.

Some people do. Personally I don’t get it. Just thought I’d ask.

Just because we do not like the state of the world is no reason for me to disbelief in a “higher power”. For example…just because someone had abusive parents does not cause them to not exist…whether you want to believe it or not.

Well no… but you would be mistaken if you thought an abusive parent was loving while they were abusing you.

I equate the idea of a loving God to that of a loving parent. A loving parent is going to let their child make mistakes and though they offer unconditional love to their child there is a certain point when the parent has to let the child live their own life without being their to tend to their every need. Though, if the child came back after having failed at life, a loving parent would also do what is in their power to care once again for their child.

This probably won’t surprise you, but I’ve heard this argument before… repeatedly. I don’t find it the least persuasive. If God were a parent, he would be carted off for neglect. Imagine a parent that allows their children to rape, and kill, and steal from each other without the slightest interference.

Tend to every need? How about tend to any need?

Just to save everyone the trouble, I’ve heard all the rebuttals to that one too: God knows more than I do. There is a master plan which is for a greater good. It’s up to us to make the world a better place. God died for us which is the ultimate act of love.

None of it makes as much sense as the simple idea that he just doesn’t exist.

 

[tGette]

I guess I did get a little preachy there, that has become my nature now. Doing so also made me stray from the main point I was making.

That point being that there is a God. Even if this God is a neglectful, spiteful being. Forget that I am a Christian, forget any religion. My point was…if you had an abusive parent, that parent still exists whether you like the way your life is or not.

So…even if we like they way this world is or not or why God has let it be this way, the truth is…there is a God who has let it be this way.

It is just a reality that everything that exists was put here by something beyond us. I know the classic argument of “then what created God?” (I used to think I made it up). I guess it seems illogical to me that when it comes to our existence there was no “creator” involved. (I do not mean creator as Creationists mean it.)

I understand the ‘typical’ atheist response to everything I am saying and feel free to offer your individual spin on it, that is why I started the thread after all. Also, I am trying to remember the mind-frame of when I was so thoroughly convinced there was no God.

An atheist could still have all the same views of how they live their life and still accept that something indeed caused us to be. They do not have to like it, but it is true. I sometimes wonder if it is the too often religious perspective of God that causes people to disbelief rather than mere reason. (I am not saying you do not use your ability to reason.)

 

[cheddarsox]

I don’t deny that there is a higher power, in my understanding it’s the Universe.

Clearly there is something in control, ordering things, and it’s not me. None of the deities that I’ve read about or been told about fit the bill either.

And I find no reason to think that what is in charge of all this is a being of any sort. Nothing I see about the way the Universe is or operates leads me to think there is a being behind it.

I have also “argued” the point you are making, that if there is a God, He doesn’t appear to be the loving parent who cares more about us than anything else.

In my non-theistic faith, humanity is NOT the focus of the Universe, the reason for its existence. That right there changes the way we look at things. Many religions start with the assumption that it is all about humanity, but when you don’t make that assumption, a lot of pieces fall into place. It certainly allows me to function in a very different way, as a piece of a magnificent whole, rather than as the focus of a demented deity.