A positive view of Mao's legacy?

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Did you read the linked articles? Do you have any concrete argument against thesis of Mao has a great leader and revolutionary comparable to Abraham Lincoln on the former respect?
Yes, I read the article, and as I said I found it devoid of scholarship, or more properly, possessing pseudo-scholarship in the interests of sanitizing Mao Zedong’s legacy - in other words intolerable propaganda. Is there a virtue in complexity I have overlooked?

My mind is not sufficiently open (as a chasm is open) to Dialectic Materialism to allow me to see the world from its confines. It is simply false to deny that anti-religious atheism is inherent in Communism. No way exists to reconcile the two world views. Religion and dialectic materialism cannot coexist. Neither, no matter the conditions in China, was Communism a necessary result, nor is Communism born of the culture there. Mao Zedong brought that to China.

Anita Dunn found points of intersection between Mao Zedong and Mother Theresa. Your Liu substitutes Abraham Lincoln. Ron Bloom, Obama’s car czar says:
We know this is largely about power, that it’s an adults only no limit game. We kind of agree with Mao that political power comes largely from the barrel of a gun. And we get it that if you want a friend you should get a dog.
Was the Communist revolution in China the moral equivalent of the American Revolution? the Union effort in the Civil War? What about the crusades? Seems Mao and his Communists can be whatever someone can say he is with a straight face.

There is a perpetual infatuation with Communism among certain intellectual and political elites in this country dating back to its origins. Unfortunately for them, history is an obstacle and the work of rewriting history laborious.
 
I am constantly surprised that anyone can look at a man like Mao and think that he is good. Many many people have died under him. To try to paint him in a positive light is outrages. We need to remember what he and those like him have done with the knowledge that it was wrong in all ways.
 
We should also remember he was a serial rapist. The fact he had his aides provide forcibly provide young women for him does not lessen the crme.
 
" But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you aint going to make it with anyone anyhow"

John Lennon
 
Yes, I read the article, and as I said I found it devoid of scholarship, or more properly, possessing pseudo-scholarship in the interests of sanitizing Mao Zedong’s legacy - in other words intolerable propaganda. Is there a virtue in complexity I have overlooked?
As I stated before, Liu is not exactly unbiased because he omitted some unsavory aspects of Mao’s rule but one could argue that the West’s vilification of Mao is also propaganda that served a useful purpose in during the Cold War. When I say complex, I mean the depiction of Mao as an evil, remorseless dictator with no redeeming characteristics. I still see him as a slightly negative person but not the moral equivalent of Adolf Hitler.
Neither, no matter the conditions in China, was Communism a necessary result, nor is Communism born of the culture there. Mao Zedong brought that to China.
Yes, you are correct as one could image a scenario where Chiang Kai-shek and the KMT did not flee to Taiwan in 1949 after the CCP won the Chinese Civil War and acquired political power to direct the affairs of the Republic of China (not People’s Republic). I do not see the CCP’s triumph as a necessary event but a contingent outcome of history. And yes, if one read the article, one would learn that revolutionary Communism is not harmonious with Confucian culture that instilled a deference to authority.
Anita Dunn found points of intersection between Mao Zedong and Mother Theresa. Your Liu substitutes Abraham Lincoln.
Liu simply wanted to draw an analogy comparing Mao Zedong with Abraham Lincoln so people with a rudimentary understanding of American history can relate to. They overlap because they were dictator-like figures assuming autocratic control of the state as a means to pursue the ends of grand idealism. Liu’s assessment of Abraham Lincoln seems historically accurate and reasonable to me despite its cynical tone, but he did not intend to castigate him.

Mao’s maxim about political power coming from the barrel of a gun is correct, but it should not be interpreted as Mao endorsing Machiavellian principles to secure political power nor Mao’s affirmation of contemporary libertarian criticism of government. In fact, the maxim was his criticism of Western imperialism influencing China through military superiority enabled by advanced weapons technology. One poignant example was Matthew Perry’s insistence of Japan to open to markets to trade by threatening the Tokugawa shogunate with their military superiority (which is the standard textbook example of “gunboat diplomacy”.)
Gunpowder remained unknown in the West until the late 10th century. However, Europeans abandoned outmoded rules of chivalry after the Middle Ages and enthusiastically incorporated firearms and artillery into the lexicon of their military arts after the late 15th century. In contrast, thanks to the Confucian aversion to technological progress, Chinese military planners did not modernize their martial code, basing foreign policy on the principle of civilized benevolence. They continued to suppress development of firearms as immoral and dishonorable up to the 19th century, much to China’s misfortune.
As a result, European armies arrived in China in the 19th century with superior firearms. They consistently and repeatedly scored decisive victories with their small but better-armed expeditionary forces over the numerically superior yet technologically backward, sword-wielding Chinese army of the decrepit Qing Dynasty (1636-1911).
China’s most influential revolutionary, Mao Zedong, proclaimed in modern times his famous dictum: “Political power comes from the barrel of a gun.” He was in fact condemning the obsolete values of Confucianism (ru jia) as much as stating a truism in barbaric modern realpolitik.
Confucian ethics notwithstanding, morality and honor failed to save China from Western imperialism, because morality and honor require observation from both opponents. It was not a clash of civilizations, but a clash between civilization and barbarism. Militarism is a race toward barbarism camouflaged by technology as modernity.
atimes.com/atimes/China/EG09Ad01.html
 
"Two days after the last visit, the guard appeared in my cell and handed me four pieces of bread for four days’ food. I figured that I would be sent to a farm that would take four days of travel. Most likely, it would be the White Lake Farm in Anhui Province. Not long after, the cell’s door was opened. I was handcuffed with another female inmate, my left hand restrained with her right hand. We were transported to a ship dock and boarded on a cargo ship. We were put in the bottom deck with no window. About five hundred female inmates had to sit and lie on the floor like sardine fish. There was no bathroom or toilet facility. In the middle of the room, there was a large container for our human disposals. We had to step on bodies to get to the middle, and the waiting time was at least twenty minutes. The container was filled very soon. Human waste was spilled and soaked into the comforters of those unfortunate ones who slept next to the container. Each of us had only four pieces of hardened and molded bread. I wanted to eat the bread with water, but I tried my best to limit my water intake in order to avoid going to the toilet. In addition to starvation, thirst, and exhaustion, I finally experienced the suffering of controlling the urge to go to the toilet. I literately had to crawl over layers of human bodies to reach the disposal container. I can only find one way to describe living with five hundred inmates without bathing for days as being in hell. "

Rose Hu, “Joy in Suffering”

"I didn’t want to give Ah Fang another opportunity to escape, so I had her taken directly to the storeroom; where I locked her up with a new group of a dozen or so holdouts. The other women in the group behaved as I had come to expect.** Separated from their husbands, bullied into submission, so distraught that they were often unable to eat or sleep. I let them one by one into the clinic as they wept.** . . “No exceptions to the one-child quota are allowed.”

“The universities were pacified by Mao Zedong Thought Propaganda Teams. The team that took control of my school consisted of thirty soldiers and was commanded by a retired army lieutenant who had risen through the ranks.”

“In reflecting on the first two years of the Cultural Revolution, Mao must have been pleased with how many of his Jovian shafts had struck home. The teenage Red Guards he had incited to anarchy in mid-1966 had destroyed his enemies outside the Party. … The Rebels of early 1967 had attacked his enemies within the Party,** torturing and imprisoning **tens of thousands of so-called capitalist-roaders.”

“The Shenyang provincial Party newspaper had even reported cases of cannibalism in the countryside. . . Had Chairman Mao admitted China faced a serious food shortage, I later realized, and asked for emergency assistance from international agencies, millions of lives could have been saved. Yet rather than reveal China’s problems – and his own incompetence as a leader – he tried to cover up the famine, in effect condemning many of his countrymen to a slow agonizing death. Mao was not only inept, he was cruelly indifferent to the sufferings of my people.”

"According to figures later published by the State Statistical Bureau, the population of China declined from 672 million in 1959 to 658 million in 1961, but the actual number of deaths was more than twice as high. Millions of children were stillborn or died and never entered on the census lists. Millions more perished in 1962 and 1963, weakened by years of progressive malnutrition. In 1963 the median age of those dying was only 9.7 years old, down from 17.6 years old before the Great Leap Forward. To put it another way, more than half of those who died in China that year were children under ten."

Comrade Chi An, “A Mother’s Ordeal”

“As the violence escalated and the scope of the Cultural Revolution expanded to include an ever increasing number of class enemies, a new slogan was coined to emphasize the undesirability of children of capitalist families. . . In short, since the parents were class enemies, the children would naturally be class enemies too.”

“We go by the teachings of our Great Leader Chairman Mao. His words are our criteria. He says a certain type of person is guilty, and you belong to that type, then you are guilty. It’s much simpler than depending on a law book.” he said.

"One young man had arranged a set of four Kangxi winecups in a row and was stepping on them. I was just in time to hear the crunch of delicate porcelain under the soul fo his sow. . . The young ma whose revolutionary work of destruction I had interrupted said angrily, “You shut up! These things belong to the old culture.”. . . Another Red Guard Said, “The purpose of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution is to destroy the old culture. You cannot stop us!”

“In 1956 Mao Zedong launched the campaign “Let a Hundred Flowers Bloom and Let a Hundred Schools of Thought Contend.” The Party secretaries in every organization, and even Mao himself, urged people to offer frank and constructive criticism of the Communist Party. Believing the Party sincere. . . tens of thousands of intellectuals and more than a million Chinese in eveyr walk of life poured out their grievances and suggestions. But Winnie and Henry refrained form speaking out. They escaped persecution when Mao swung his policy around in 1957 and initiated the anti-Rightist Campaign. Many of them lost their jobs, becoming nonpersons, and were sent to labor camps; others had their pay reduced or were demoted in rank. The treachery of Mao Zedong in repeatedly inviting frank and constructive criticism and then harshly punsihing those who gave it completely cowed the Chinese intellectuals, so that China’s cultural life came to a virtual standstill.”

Nien Chang, Life and Death in Shanghai
 
Yet there are always people ignorant and who believe the propaganda of the madman and his apologists today. The above is the tip of the iceburg of torture, murder, suspicion, hate, villainy incited and guided by that man… The amount of human suffering he caused is incomparable.

Children against parents, parents against children, neighbors and friends against one another, in desperation and suspicion, denouncing, hiding, lying, killing, torturing, destroying, stealing… all at the behest of Chairman Mao.

The only people who do not wish to see it are the people who -do not wish- to see it, in other words, do not want the truth because they want to believe in Communism, which is an evil system.
 
“Under the watchful eyes of the guards, I could not pray openly in the daytime. The only way I could be certain of being left alone with my prayers was to bend my head over a volume of Mao Zedong’s books while I prayed to God from my tormented heart. As I spoke of my daughter, I relived the precious years from the time of her birth in Canberra, Australia, in 1942 until our forcible separation on the night of September 27,1966, when I was taken to the struggle meeting and arrested. I felt again and again the joy she had given me at each stage of her growth and knew I was fortunate to have received from God this very special blessing of a daughter. Day after day I prayed. More and more I remembered the days of her living, and less and less I dwelled on the tragedy of her dying. Gradually peace came to me, and with it a measure of acceptance. But there was something more. While I could no longer cling tenaciously to the hope I would see her alive and well on the day I walked out of the No. 1 Detention House, I knew that there was much I still had to do both before and after my release. It was up to me, if I could, to find out what had happened to my daughter and, if I could, to right the wrong that had been done to her. My life would be bleak without Meiping. But I had to fight on.”

“You probably have hepatitis. There is a lot of it going around in this detention house. I’ll examine a specimen of your blood.”

I was astonished. Any ignoramus with no special medical knowledge would know I had bronchitis, possibly verging on pneumonia, not hepatitis, an inflammation of the liver with symptoms entirely different from mine. What sort of “doctor” was this young man? I bent down to look at him through the opening in the small window. I saw a country lad no more than twenty years of age in a soldier’s uniform. I realized he was not a trained doctor at all but had been given the job because Mao Zedong had said, “We must learn swimming from swimming,” when referring to appointing unskilled workers who were politically reliable to do technical jobs. The young man was simply carrying out Mao’s order to “learn to be a doctor by being one.”

**There were many reports in the newspaper of cases where untrained hospital coolies were said to have performed operations successfully after mastering Mao’s quotations. **During the operation, Revolutionaries anxious to prove the magic of Mao’s words remained in the operating room reciting quotations from the Little Red Book while the untrained “doctor” struggled with the patient. However, when Mao himself or one of the other radical leaders needed medical attention from experts other than their own personal doctors, those experts, trained in Western universities before the Communist Party took over China, were bundled into special planes and flown to Beijing, often hastily removed from the countryside where they had been exiled to perform hard labor."

. . Several days passed; my fever got so high that I no longer felt the cold in the cell. I slept most of the time, in a state of semiconsciousness. . .

Nien Cheng, “Life in Death in Shanghai”

[Correctly spelled ‘Cheng’]
 
Yet there are always people ignorant and who believe the propaganda of the madman and his apologists today. The above is the tip of the iceburg of torture, murder, suspicion, hate, villainy incited and guided by that man… The amount of human suffering he caused is incomparable.

Children against parents, parents against children, neighbors and friends against one another, in desperation and suspicion, denouncing, hiding, lying, killing, torturing, destroying, stealing… all at the behest of Chairman Mao.

The only people who do not wish to see it are the people who -do not wish- to see it, in other words, do not want the truth because they want to believe in Communism, which is an evil system.
Just wanted this on the thread twice. I hope we are paying attention.
 
I also found this from Liu written in 1999 about Pol Pot:

marxmail.org/archives/July99/propaganda_about_pol_pot.htm

He said:
Even though international audiences were horrified by the Hollywood propaganda movie about Pol Pot’s rule, (The Killing Fields), the Khmer Rouge was offered support from the United States because of its opposition to America’s main enemy: Vietnam. That support required the demonization of Pol Pot.

But to blame the death and destruction caused by foreign invasion and embargo during 1975-79 on Pol Pot’s controversial revolutionary policies is merely reactionary propaganda.
Another excerpt:
Ironically, puritanical Protestant ethics celebrating the virtues of thrift, industry, sobriety and responsibility, would be identified by many sociologists as the driving force centuries later behind the success of modern capitalism and industrialized economy.
Which also appears word for word in:

atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/KK14Cb03.html
atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GA08Dj02.html

But there is nothing wrong with self-plagiarism since it is your work. It is hard to write original content in Liu’s style (saturated with factoids of history and complex sentences) so it is understandable that he would copy and paste from his previous work as long as it was relevant to the new article.

I am not going to defend Pol Pot, but I found that post somewhat surprising.
 
“Under the watchful eyes of the guards, I could not pray openly in the daytime. The only way I could be certain of being left alone with my prayers was to bend my head over a volume of Mao Zedong’s books while I prayed to God from my tormented heart. As I spoke of my daughter, I relived the precious years from the time of her birth in Canberra, Australia, in 1942 until our forcible separation on the night of September 27,1966, when I was taken to the struggle meeting and arrested. I felt again and again the joy she had given me at each stage of her growth and knew I was fortunate to have received from God this very special blessing of a daughter. Day after day I prayed. More and more I remembered the days of her living, and less and less I dwelled on the tragedy of her dying. Gradually peace came to me, and with it a measure of acceptance. But there was something more. While I could no longer cling tenaciously to the hope I would see her alive and well on the day I walked out of the No. 1 Detention House, I knew that there was much I still had to do both before and after my release. It was up to me, if I could, to find out what had happened to my daughter and, if I could, to right the wrong that had been done to her. My life would be bleak without Meiping. But I had to fight on.”

“You probably have hepatitis. There is a lot of it going around in this detention house. I’ll examine a specimen of your blood.”

I was astonished. Any ignoramus with no special medical knowledge would know I had bronchitis, possibly verging on pneumonia, not hepatitis, an inflammation of the liver with symptoms entirely different from mine. What sort of “doctor” was this young man? I bent down to look at him through the opening in the small window. I saw a country lad no more than twenty years of age in a soldier’s uniform. I realized he was not a trained doctor at all but had been given the job because Mao Zedong had said, “We must learn swimming from swimming,” when referring to appointing unskilled workers who were politically reliable to do technical jobs. The young man was simply carrying out Mao’s order to “learn to be a doctor by being one.”

**There were many reports in the newspaper of cases where untrained hospital coolies were said to have performed operations successfully after mastering Mao’s quotations. **During the operation, Revolutionaries anxious to prove the magic of Mao’s words remained in the operating room reciting quotations from the Little Red Book while the untrained “doctor” struggled with the patient. However, when Mao himself or one of the other radical leaders needed medical attention from experts other than their own personal doctors, those experts, trained in Western universities before the Communist Party took over China, were bundled into special planes and flown to Beijing, often hastily removed from the countryside where they had been exiled to perform hard labor."

. . Several days passed; my fever got so high that I no longer felt the cold in the cell. I slept most of the time, in a state of semiconsciousness. . .

Nien Cheng, “Life in Death in Shanghai”

[Correctly spelled ‘Cheng’]
Shin, Hi hao.

Many many thanks for your posts, quoting biographical material in opposition to the notion of Mao’s “positive” legacy.
Mao left no postive legacy. He left a nation soaked by the blood of millions.
He was a destroyer of Christians and Christian churchs.
He killed others out of personal enmity, not for broken laws.
Again, xiexie for your posts on this thread.
 
Originally Posted by Shin
Yet there are always people ignorant and who believe the propaganda of the madman and his apologists today. The above is the tip of the iceburg of torture, murder, suspicion, hate, villainy incited and guided by that man… The amount of human suffering he caused is incomparable.

Children against parents, parents against children, neighbors and friends against one another, in desperation and suspicion, denouncing, hiding, lying, killing, torturing, destroying, stealing… all at the behest of Chairman Mao.

The only people who do not wish to see it are the people who -do not wish- to see it, in other words, do not want the truth because they want to believe in Communism, which is an evil system.
Just wanted this on the thread twice. I hope we are paying attention.
Some are.
Some aren’t.
 
I found this argument months ago that Mao’s legacy was dishonestly tainted by the anti-communist West as he is often characterized as a malicious murder. Yes, I do admire Henry CK Liu has I did enjoy reading his in depth articles written for the Asia Times that put contemporary issues in historical context supplementing them with his mastery of oriental and occidental history. I am not entirely convinced by Liu’s arguments, but I do belief that Mao has been unjustly demonized and his culpability for the Great Leap Forward fiasco has been exaggerated for ideological purposes during the Cold War.

henryckliu.com/page115.html (Mao and Lincoln)
henryckliu.com/page116.html (Great Leap Forward not all bad)

On the Great Leap Forward: Not Entirely Mao’s fault but a disaster caused by bad weather and a US trade embargo.

On Mao’s legacy:
Sadly, Mao was a malicious murderer. Religion was greatly persecuted under Mao’s rule and much dissension and freedom of expression was suppressed. Many executions took place without anything even resembling due process and whether his intent was malicious or not, his mismanagement of the Great Leap Forward cost millions of people their lives.
 
I found this argument months ago that Mao’s legacy was dishonestly tainted by the anti-communist West as he is often characterized as a malicious murder. Yes, I do admire Henry CK Liu has I did enjoy reading his in depth articles written for the Asia Times that put contemporary issues in historical context supplementing them with his mastery of oriental and occidental history. I am not entirely convinced by Liu’s arguments, but I do belief that Mao has been unjustly demonized and his culpability for the Great Leap Forward fiasco has been exaggerated for ideological purposes during the Cold War.
You can’t be serious?! I suppose Che was misunderstood as well! It’s amazing how people can just make up any history they want and though completely lacking in historical facts, yet some people will buy into them, especially if it mentions blaming the USA! Mao WAS A SICK MURDERING BASTARD! or perhaps 70 million dead isn’t enough proof for you!
:banghead:
 
Shin, Hi hao.

Many many thanks for your posts, quoting biographical material in opposition to the notion of Mao’s “positive” legacy.
Mao left no postive legacy. He left a nation soaked by the blood of millions.
He was a destroyer of Christians and Christian churchs.
He killed others out of personal enmity, not for broken laws.
Again, xiexie for your posts on this thread.
Ni hao!

Bu keqi!

I was very moved so I had to reply! Communism is so much about writing an untrue history! They do it regarding religion, they do it regarding their leaders and governments! And it has done so much harm throughout the world today still with its ideas.

North Korea is an example of what Communists strive for. Soviet Russia. So many terrible regimes with so much suffering and vice, lies and theft everywhere.

O Holy Virgin of Sheshan pray for us!
 
Ni hao!

Bu keqi!

I was very moved so I had to reply! Communism is so much about writing an untrue history! They do it regarding religion, they do it regarding their leaders and governments! And it has done so much harm throughout the world today still with its ideas.

North Korea is an example of what Communists strive for. Soviet Russia. So many terrible regimes with so much suffering and vice, lies and theft everywhere.

O Holy Virgin of Sheshan pray for us!
I do not want to say that about Liu’s other work, but the goal of Chinese Communism is not to imitate North Korea but to free themselves from foreign imperialism and to resist the international trend towards neoliberalism. I am more interested in reversing the harm neoliberalism has inflicted throughout the world than hindering communism as the former is currently powerful while the latter was rendered otiose from the denouement of the Cold War.

But if I weren’t a Catholic, I would probably be a extremely sympathetic to the Chinese New Left (wikipedia page) who advocate Maoist ideas, Chinese nationalism, and reversing Deng Xiaoping’s economic reforms and are generally opposed to the free market, democracy, and constitutional government. I would be interested in remaking China into a strong bastion against global plague of neoliberalism showing the embracing socialism is the only true antidote to the pathology. But Catholicism is opposed to communism’s religious intolerance and its materialism so I cannot advocate such a position without going against the Church.
 
I also cannot let fervent adherence to ideology trivialize the harm that has been inflicted on millions of Chinese thereby disrespecting those who did suffer and die under Mao. (couldn’t add due to time limit with editing posts)
 
From the safety of the New World, where a biased news media is our greatest tormentor, it is astounding to think that the age of persecution is not yet over. In the world’s largest country, which current trends indicate will also be the world’s most important, Catholic Christians are routinely persecuted, as we were in the Roman Empire at the time of Nero.

But I very much doubt those current trends will continue. The Chinese communists abandoned their rusting juggernaut of Marxism for the luxurious cruise ship of capitalism, but their shiny new vessel is leaking like a sieve! I will explain: the new Chinese capitalism is entirely based on globalization, as it consists of buying cheap raw materials and reselling them at a profit in the form of industrialized products. But for all that abundant, inexpensive energy is required. As energy, especially oil, is becoming gradually more scarce and expensive, the Chinese economy is bound to collapse.

That will be the time when I believe the Chinese people will see the folly of materialism, both the left-wing and the right-wing kinds, and at long last embrace the One True Faith.
 
But I very much doubt those current trends will continue. The Chinese communists abandoned their rusting juggernaut of Marxism for the luxurious cruise ship of capitalism, but their shiny new vessel is leaking like a sieve! I will explain: the new Chinese capitalism is entirely based on globalization, as it consists of buying cheap raw materials and reselling them at a profit in the form of industrialized products. But for all that abundant, inexpensive energy is required. As energy, especially oil, is becoming gradually more scarce and expensive, the Chinese economy is bound to collapse.
The RMS Titanic launched its maiden voyage on April 10, 1912 from Belfast en route to New York. Much like an unequal capitalist society, its passengers are segregated in classes, according to their ability to pay. When the ship sank on early April 15, 1912, just four days after it left port, after it impacted an iceberg in the North Atlantic, those who had first class accommodation had a much better chance of survival than those in the third class, who were locked out from the top decks. Those who were not placed on lifeboats froze to death in the Atlantic, unable to withstand the frigid waters while waiting for the RMS Carpathia to pluck them out, or went down with the ship.

I have my own pet theories why Chinese capitalism (socialism with Chinese characteristics) would fail if they embrace globalization.
That will be the time when I believe the Chinese people will see the folly of materialism, both the left-wing and the right-wing kinds, and at long last embrace the One True Faith.
This sounds similar to my own “conversion” story (although my current interest in Catholicism is tentative which is why I put conversion in scare quotes).
 
I have a very good friend who grew up in China in the 60s and early 70s. I had read Warren Carrol’s “Rise and Fall of the Cummunist Revolution” and thought it was very good. I gave it to my friend, a non-catholic BTW, to read and tell me what he thought. He thought it was the best book on describing communism he had read since coming to America in 1982.
To say the least, Warren Caroll does not think highly of Mao.
As bad as we think communism was, it was worse. So many people think of it as simply an economic system “that didn’t work”. That is revisionist history by the left and intelligensia to sooth their consciences of decades and decades of supporting such a terrible scourge on humanity.
 
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