A possible deep hole

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feltmeanings23

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I’m confused. I’m either already consigned to hell, in which case all is futile, or I am far into a hole. Basically, some childhood trauma and sin (and maybe an innate or developed social anxiety) corrupted my–if theism is true–moral/spiritual apparatus or–if atheism is true–my natural feelings. I guess the tramau/sin (the former may or may not have led to the latter, though it is definitely possible) started when I was 6, 7, or 8. Aside from the tramua and sin just alluded to, there was also a case in which I stole something from my cousin and never admitted it till many years later (just recently in fact). Basically, I became a slave to sin, a hardened atheist (which I may or may not still be), and a socially awkward clinical depressive (although the last part may be partially(?) innate, as said before).

I am 20 years old. Recently I was put on antidepressants at the suggestion of a girl from college who noticed my disposition. Citalopram 20mg. The drug has really helped null my pain and I felt a joy that I “never”(?) felt before. It has helped me stop the sin. It was almost like a beatific vision. But here’s where the dark side comes in:

-How do I know that any ‘newfound’ happiness is genuine and not just drug-induced & short-lived, or even evil? What if I am actually in hell already, and God, by his grace, is letting me experience some joy before I go there permanently? If I became a theist/Christian/Catholic again, how could I be sure that it isn’t out of selfishness? Self-preservation? Fear? Stupidity? To satisfy a religious conscience? A pharaisic conscience? How do I know that as soon as something bad happens, like temptation, that I wouldn’t just go back to being a hardened atheist/agnostic again?

Basically, my fear is that my real self (my self not on drugs) is my true self–my true soul–and that it’s already in hell (a slave to the sin), but by some satanic force or just godly force, my pain is being nulled temporaly as part of some divine scheme, of which antidepressants play a part. Is it cheating to use antidepressants…running away from God?

There’s also the doubts. Problem of evil. If Satan was in heaven, and heaven is a place of joy, how did prideful thoughts (or any negative thoughts or feelings whatsoever) enter into his mind/psyche/soul? If I am in a state of joy, why would I care about someone else being more powerful? Why did God create anything in the first place, is not he enough on His own, with His Son and the Holy Spirit? Why create what would (potentially) become a huge mess, with so much pain and suffering? Of course the Holocaust always comes up, but there’s also terrible cases where a child or somebody is locked up and battered/tortured, for days, months, years, possibly a decade. How could that possibly be part of God’s plan? Why would God need that horrific pain to take place; couldn’t he give children paradise without letting them die in agony first? Why does God seem so detached–if seems like if a god would be able interact easily…

There are three more key things. The doctrine of hell. Why forever? Surely even our worst crimes don’t deserve that much punishment, and in a fallen world where God is/seems absent, how could people be blamed for disbelief, whether it leads to sin or not? God had the power to create a spirit, put it in a material body, and material bodies can be put to sleep. So why couldn’t God put the lost souls into a body somewhere, and just let them sleep forever? Could I be a Catholic and not accept the traditional doctrine of Hell?

(Now I’ve heard at least theist say that ‘god is not all-powerful’. If so, then how can a believer be sure that good will triumph over evil in the end.)

And euthanasia. Very big issue. There is a lot of pain/misery in the death process…why not let people gracefully go?

Finally, antinatalism. In a world as fallen/sinful/unempathetic as this one, how could procreation possibly be a good thing? How could it possibly be a good thing to expose an innocent person to this mess? Look at how broken families are–lonely kids, drunken fathers, abandonment, antidepressant use, other types of drug use, infidelity, etc.

That is all. There’s much more I could say, but that is the basic outline. Thank you for any clarifications.

(I’m new to this site, and didn’t know exactly where to post this. Should I ask an apologist too/would that be better? If you need to move this, do so, but send me a message/email.)
 
feltmeanings23 said:
I’m confused. I’m either already consigned to hell, in which case all is futile, or I am far into a hole. Basically, some childhood trauma and sin (and maybe an innate or developed social anxiety) corrupted my–if theism is true–moral/spiritual apparatus or–if atheism is true–my natural feelings. I guess the tramau/sin (the former may or may not have led to the latter, though it is definitely possible) started when I was 6, 7, or 8. Aside from the tramua and sin just alluded to, there was also a case in which I stole something from my cousin and never admitted it till many years later (just recently in fact). Basically, I became a slave to sin, a hardened atheist (which I may or may not still be), and a socially awkward clinical depressive (although the last part may be partially(?) innate, as said before).

I am 20 years old. Recently I was put on antidepressants at the suggestion of a girl from college who noticed my disposition. Citalopram 20mg. The drug has really helped null my pain and I felt a joy that I “never”(?) felt before. It has helped me stop the sin. It was almost like a beatific vision. But here’s where the dark side comes in:

-How do I know that any ‘newfound’ happiness is genuine and not just drug-induced & short-lived, or even evil? What if I am actually in hell already, and God, by his grace, is letting me experience some joy before I go there permanently? If I became a theist/Christian/Catholic again, how could I be sure that it isn’t out of selfishness? Self-preservation? Fear? Stupidity? To satisfy a religious conscience? A pharaisic conscience? How do I know that as soon as something bad happens, like temptation, that I wouldn’t just go back to being a hardened atheist/agnostic again?

Basically, my fear is that my real self (my self not on drugs) is my true self–my true soul–and that it’s already in hell (a slave to the sin), but by some satanic force or just godly force, my pain is being nulled temporaly as part of some divine scheme, of which antidepressants play a part. Is it cheating to use antidepressants…running away from God?

There’s also the doubts. Problem of evil. If Satan was in heaven, and heaven is a place of joy, how did prideful thoughts (or any negative thoughts or feelings whatsoever) enter into his mind/psyche/soul? If I am in a state of joy, why would I care about someone else being more powerful? Why did God create anything in the first place, is not he enough on His own, with His Son and the Holy Spirit? Why create what would (potentially) become a huge mess, with so much pain and suffering? Of course the Holocaust always comes up, but there’s also terrible cases where a child or somebody is locked up and battered/tortured, for days, months, years, possibly a decade. How could that possibly be part of God’s plan? Why would God need that horrific pain to take place; couldn’t he give children paradise without letting them die in agony first? Why does God seem so detached–if seems like if a god would be able interact easily…

There are three more key things. The doctrine of hell. Why forever? Surely even our worst crimes don’t deserve that much punishment, and in a fallen world where God is/seems absent, how could people be blamed for disbelief, whether it leads to sin or not? God had the power to create a spirit, put it in a material body, and material bodies can be put to sleep. So why couldn’t God put the lost souls into a body somewhere, and just let them sleep forever? Could I be a Catholic and not accept the traditional doctrine of Hell?

(Now I’ve heard at least theist say that ‘god is not all-powerful’. If so, then how can a believer be sure that good will triumph over evil in the end.)

And euthanasia. Very big issue. There is a lot of pain/misery in the death process…why not let people gracefully go?

Finally, antinatalism. In a world as fallen/sinful/unempathetic as this one, how could procreation possibly be a good thing? How could it possibly be a good thing to expose an innocent person to this mess? Look at how broken families are–lonely kids, drunken fathers, abandonment, antidepressant use, other types of drug use, infidelity, etc.

That is all. There’s much more I could say, but that is the basic outline. Thank you for any clarifications.

(I’m new to this site, and didn’t know exactly where to post this. Should I ask an apologist too/would that be better? If you need to move this, do so, but send me a message/email.)
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You have a lot of questions. Had you ever tried going to the “Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults”, RCIA? Well, it’s for people who are both discerning their faith, exploring, have questions, and those who have already converted to Catholicism.

If you honestly and truly care to find out what the Church believes, then just drop in to the Church, and ask them about RCIA and/or talk to a priest.

You can attend the classes, ask questions. They are prepared to answer these, and other, questions you might have.
 
It sounds to me that you have problems of the psyche and the body that need to be dealt with a combination of medical and spiritual approaches. Often one problem causes the other.

I am not a certified apologist, but I know this- at least as long as you have life you have a choice and a chance at unity with God (salvation, heaven, etc.) So no Catholic would agree that you are condemned to hell because of your past doings or what you are going through.

Seek spiritual counseling from a Catholic psychologist if that is the faith you seek. Behaviorist psychology and neurological science is not enough for you. You clearly seek to be fed spiritually as well, a need which a lot of modern society does not recognize, to destructive ends.
 
Welcome to the forums, feltmeanings! You’ve talked about many profound things here. I’ll take a first stab at it, and we’ll see where it goes!

First, on the question of being doomed to hell because of slavery to sin: No one is doomed to hell. In 1 Timothy 2:4, St. Paul tells us that God wills all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. God will not abandon you to hell and withhold his grace from you. He has revealed himself to be a God of love. He gave his own life in love for us. So we can trust that he will help us to grow and overcome our failings.

Here’s the thing about sin. There are any number of reasons why we might choose to sin. In many cases, it’s a desire for instant gratification. We want something right now. We don’t want to put in the effort to do the right thing. We all have weaknesses like that. If we keep making sinful choices, we start to build a habit of sin. There are so many reasons why we can end up in a place like that. In my life, I can certainly say that loneliness, discouragement, and depression have made me more inclined toward sin (specifically sexual sin) than I otherwise would be, so the fact that you suffer from depression may play an important role in the choices you’ve made.

Depression is a real illness. It’s not a cop-out to say that you’re clinically depressed. I haven’t had a lot of personal experience with it, but I know how debilitating mental illness can be. Sometimes, you can’t get out of the hole you’re in. That’s where modern medication can be such a blessing. I’m so happy to hear that you feel joy again. That joy isn’t fake. It isn’t an alien thing. It’s just that your brain tends to get stuck on the more negative aspects of life, and you don’t experience joy as often as you’d like. It’s awesome to hear that you’ve been able to experience it now!

With respect to your motivations for becoming a theist or Christian, I think you can safely be at peace with yourself. Everyone has mixed motivations in life. We might have selfish and altruistic motivations at the same time. You don’t need to over-analyze your motivations in this respect. Try to focus on what you believe, and act accordingly. Do you believe in God? Does the Christian faith appeal to your sense of what’s true and just in life? Those are the kinds of questions that will help you decide how to proceed. If you have selfish motivations, they may change over time as you grow and mature in your faith. Don’t sweat it too much.

Overall, please don’t let yourself be defined by your struggles. Your depression is not your deepest level! It’s a part of how your brain works – a painful thing, that’s for sure. There’s not a wall between how you think now and your real-self. They’re both a part of you, but they don’t define your deepest self. You influence your deepest self by the choices you make and the values you have.

Moving on to your questions about faith:

The problem of evil is something I don’t have an answer for. The Catholic Church admits that the origin of evil is a great mystery. We don’t understand it. How did Satan and the angels decide to reject God and oppose him? Where did pride come from? It’s impossible to answer those questions in a truly satisfying way. At some point, it becomes a question of trust. God has only revealed limited information to us about the very beginning and the fall from grace. Beyond a certain point, it’s simply speculation on our part.

I also can’t answer why God seems so detached. It’s a question I’ve struggled with in my own life. People explain it by saying that God wants us to be free to accept or reject him, but doesn’t seem satisfying to me. I’m free to accept or reject other people I meet, but I never question whether they exist or not. Their existence is self-evident. So why would God be so hidden that it is quite possible for a sincere person to deny his existence? It’s a great mystery. I see substantial evidence that points to something greater than matter alone. So I believe that God is real. But I don’t understand why he isn’t more obvious.

Hell: This is another difficult one. I believe the key is that time may not work the same way in eternity. People often use the word “eternity” as a synonym for “forever”. But it may be more accurate to say “timeless”. I think it’s highly possible that eternity is a timeless state, or at least a state where time works very differently than it does here on earth. In such a case, it is not something that can change. A change would imply a passage of time. In that sense, I believe hell and heaven both make more sense, although it leaves a lot more mystery than it solves.

Euthanasia: Suffering sometimes seems unbearable, but if we persevere, we can learn from it. Life is also a sacred gift. Throwing it away before your natural death is a sad choice.

Procreation: There are indeed a lot of broken families and troubled marriages, but there is an ideal to aspire to, and it’s beautiful! The failures should not detract from the beauty of the real thing!
 
You are being way to hard on yourself. One, trauma due to abuse, or what ever you have endured is not your fault. Any sin you may have committed may be less serious as a result of poor or improper teaching, raising and understanding. That you are struggling with belief tells me that something in you does believe in God.

If you have been baptized or are under instruction please know if you confess your sins honestly they will be forgiven, and you should not concern yourself about them afterwards, other than to avoid repeating them.

Finally, depression is a medical disorder, and is not a reflection of who you really are. Depression keeps people from living fully and with some amount of hope, success or inspiration. If the medication has helped you, view this as a gift from God. I know that taking medications for depression has helped me. I have a clinical depression due to chronic pain from another medical condition.

Without the meds for depression I could not function. I am not some sort of depraved devil or more prone to sin because I have to use these medications. You might even say that it takes more humility and grace to admit this “weakness” than to deny that there is a problem. Please give yourself a chance to have time to heal, seek counseling and continue your search for God.

You are not automatically condemned to Hell because of your past sins. God came to us through Jesus so we could be forgiven of our sins, not forgotten and abandoned in a “deep hole.” God loves you. He really does.
 
feltmeanings23 said:
I’m confused. I’m either already consigned to hell, in which case all is futile, or I am far into a hole. Basically, some childhood trauma and sin (and maybe an innate or developed social anxiety) corrupted my–if theism is true–moral/spiritual apparatus or–if atheism is true–my natural feelings. I guess the tramau/sin (the former may or may not have led to the latter, though it is definitely possible) started when I was 6, 7, or 8. Aside from the tramua and sin just alluded to, there was also a case in which I stole something from my cousin and never admitted it till many years later (just recently in fact). Basically, I became a slave to sin, a hardened atheist (which I may or may not still be), and a socially awkward clinical depressive (although the last part may be partially(?) innate, as said before).

I am 20 years old. Recently I was put on antidepressants at the suggestion of a girl from college who noticed my disposition. Citalopram 20mg. The drug has really helped null my pain and I felt a joy that I “never”(?) felt before. It has helped me stop the sin. It was almost like a beatific vision. But here’s where the dark side comes in:

-How do I know that any ‘newfound’ happiness is genuine and not just drug-induced & short-lived, or even evil? What if I am actually in hell already, and God, by his grace, is letting me experience some joy before I go there permanently? If I became a theist/Christian/Catholic again, how could I be sure that it isn’t out of selfishness? Self-preservation? Fear? Stupidity? To satisfy a religious conscience? A pharaisic conscience? How do I know that as soon as something bad happens, like temptation, that I wouldn’t just go back to being a hardened atheist/agnostic again?

Basically, my fear is that my real self (my self not on drugs) is my true self–my true soul–and that it’s already in hell (a slave to the sin), but by some satanic force or just godly force, my pain is being nulled temporaly as part of some divine scheme, of which antidepressants play a part. Is it cheating to use antidepressants…running away from God?

There’s also the doubts. Problem of evil. If Satan was in heaven, and heaven is a place of joy, how did prideful thoughts (or any negative thoughts or feelings whatsoever) enter into his mind/psyche/soul? If I am in a state of joy, why would I care about someone else being more powerful? Why did God create anything in the first place, is not he enough on His own, with His Son and the Holy Spirit? Why create what would (potentially) become a huge mess, with so much pain and suffering? Of course the Holocaust always comes up, but there’s also terrible cases where a child or somebody is locked up and battered/tortured, for days, months, years, possibly a decade. How could that possibly be part of God’s plan? Why would God need that horrific pain to take place; couldn’t he give children paradise without letting them die in agony first? Why does God seem so detached–if seems like if a god would be able interact easily…

There are three more key things. The doctrine of hell. Why forever? Surely even our worst crimes don’t deserve that much punishment, and in a fallen world where God is/seems absent, how could people be blamed for disbelief, whether it leads to sin or not? God had the power to create a spirit, put it in a material body, and material bodies can be put to sleep. So why couldn’t God put the lost souls into a body somewhere, and just let them sleep forever? Could I be a Catholic and not accept the traditional doctrine of Hell?

(Now I’ve heard at least theist say that ‘god is not all-powerful’. If so, then how can a believer be sure that good will triumph over evil in the end.)

And euthanasia. Very big issue. There is a lot of pain/misery in the death process…why not let people gracefully go?

Finally, antinatalism. In a world as fallen/sinful/unempathetic as this one, how could procreation possibly be a good thing? How could it possibly be a good thing to expose an innocent person to this mess? Look at how broken families are–lonely kids, drunken fathers, abandonment, antidepressant use, other types of drug use, infidelity, etc.

That is all. There’s much more I could say, but that is the basic outline. Thank you for any clarifications.

(I’m new to this site, and didn’t know exactly where to post this. Should I ask an apologist too/would that be better? If you need to move this, do so, but send me a message/email.)
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SSRIs don’t make you happy; when they work, they help to make the brain stop feeling sad (very much a simplification).
 
Cricket2 said:
You are being way to hard on yourself. One, trauma due to abuse, or what ever you have endured is not your fault. Any sin you may have committed may be less serious as a result of poor or improper teaching, raising and understanding. That you are struggling with belief tells me that something in you does believe in God.

If you have been baptized or are under instruction please know if you confess your sins honestly they will be forgiven, and you should not concern yourself about them afterwards, other than to avoid repeating them.

Finally, depression is a medical disorder, and is not a reflection of who you really are. Depression keeps people from living fully and with some amount of hope, success or inspiration. If the medication has helped you, view this as a gift from God. I know that taking medications for depression has helped me. I have a clinical depression due to chronic pain from another medical condition.

Without the meds for depression I could not function. I am not some sort of depraved devil or more prone to sin because I have to use these medications. You might even say that it takes more humility and grace to admit this “weakness” than to deny that there is a problem. Please give yourself a chance to have time to heal, seek counseling and continue your search for God.

You are not automatically condemned to Hell because of your past sins. God came to us through Jesus so we could be forgiven of our sins, not forgotten and abandoned in a “deep hole.” God loves you. He really does.
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These are words of wisdom.
 
Perhaps you wish to remain anonymous, but if you share where you are some of us might be able to offer you some more concrete suggestions on where/who to go to for someone to talk to…
 
Sacred scripture is full of redemptive parables, offered by the Grace of our Lord. You have a free will and a choice. You can either keep listening to the temptations of those evil spirits or turn to Jesus and keep facing him and don’t look back.

I’m on anti-depressants as well. A drifted Catholic who has returned to the faith. Jesus has been my best friend since then and ever more! Am I still a sinner, yes. We all are less than perfect. You are nothing different. So REJECT all that nonsense and do what your heart has lead you. You came here for a reason. We all love you. Pray for me! I pray for you, my good neighbor!
 
(Part 1, to be continued)

To reiterate what others have posted,

Your questions are filled to the brim with misinformation regarding the beliefs taught by the Church. You seem to say you were at one point Catholic. Whoever was responsible for your catechism ought to be found a different job, because they failed miserably in that one. None of this is your fault, and I hope you will continue to frequent Catholic.com and also read and study the Catechism of the Catholic Church to correct the many misunderstandings you currently have.

Point one: It is not possible to be doomed to Hell.

Hell is not a punishment. Hell is a choice. After death (and for most of us, Purgatory) we join our Creator in perfect holy communion. God loves you infinitely and desires you to live forever in perfect happiness and communion with Him. He is also all-powerful; He can help you to join Him in heaven no matter what the obstacles. However, because He loves you, He will not force you to do something you refuse to do. If you don’t want to be join Him in the perfect happiness of communion in heaven, He isn’t going to force you. Satan is in hell for the same reason anyone else is: he chose to be there.

We talk about Heaven and Hell as “places” but of course these are spiritual; they are not physical locations. Still, your soul is eternal so it has to exist in some spiritual “state” (as in state-of-mind). If you choose, of your own free will, not to go to Heaven - then Hell is the alternative. It’s not a lake filled with fire and torture; it’s just not the perfect blissful happiness that is Heaven. And the only way that anyone ever ends up in the state of “Hell” is that they freely and with complete knowledge of the consequences choose hell over the alternative.

Now, we might feel iffy about sharing heaven with mass murderers. But God is more powerful than a mass murderer, and He has the power to change that person and heal them of all that sin - not just forgive them but in fact make them a new and holy person.

So really, when you say that you think you are “doomed” to Hell, you’re denying God’s infinite power. That’s kinda heresy.
 
(Part 2, continued from part 1 and to be continued in part 3)

Point two: Who do you think created the chemistry that makes your helpful medication helpful?

All things are created (ultimately) through God. You seem to think that your medication is circumventing God’s will. Do you think our all-powerful Lord of Creation would provide the physical and biological means (organic chemistry - He invented it!) of producing a medication that helps your condition - if He didn’t want you to use it? Of course there are medications, such as chemical birth control, that the Church teaches ought not to be used. But the reason is not that the medication is bad, but that the purpose for which it is used is not to “heal” anyone but to prevent human life. Until the 20th century that would have fallen under the category of “poison”, not medicine. Your medicine is obviously helping, not harming, you and others.

You also ought to differentiate between your biological self (which you call your true self) and your “true” self, perfected as God’s love means you to be. We aren’t judged by our biology. We do live in a fallen and sinful world, and because of that your biology can make you seek and do things that your soul doesn’t desire. You will be judged by your soul, not your biology. If you are in communion with God, your soul will ultimately be reborn inside a perfected version of your body, to live forever.

Point three: A reiteration that God is all-powerful.

If you return to the Church because of selfishness or greed or any other base desire, God can use your weakness. God can turn that weakness into a strength. But He won’t do that unless you let Him; unless you ask Him to do so. God doesn’t care what path you take; He just wants you to be with him in paradise. The Church exists as a guide for that journey. Accept the guide. Read the map.

Point four: Euthanasia is a sin because it is selfish.

The painfully ill person who persists in being upbeat and loving and happy is an inspiring example to all who see her. The painfully ill person who is depressed and angry is an inspiring warning to all who see her; an example of how not to weather an illness. Besides, I am not aware of the Church placing any restrictions on legal painkillers prescribed by a physician. Suicide is a mortal sin because it is the most selfish act anyone can commit. Murdering someone takes that person out of the world. Killing yourself is the act of making the entire world go away (for you). Those who advocate euthanasia as “kind” death make the error of assuming that the point of life is to be selfish and care only about one’s own comfort and feelings.

Point five: New life is one of the most beautiful gifts you can give to anyone and to the rest of the world.

Yes, we do live in a fallen, sinful world where bad things happen to good people. Christ’s promise is that a) if we accept God’s grace and seek communion with Him then after we die in this world we will be with Him in a state of perfect goodness and happiness in Heaven, and b) at the end of all time Christ will return in physical form and remake the world (really all of creation, not just the “world”) to be perfect and full of nothing but goodness and happiness and we will all join him to live forever in perfected, eternal bodies.

That’s a promise from the Creator of everything. The only way anyone can have the opportunity to partake of that perfect goodness and happiness - so perfect that our mortal minds aren’t even capable of imagining how amazingly awesome it is going to be - is if that person is born. That’s what antinatalism is: denying a potentia fellow human being their own existence. I’m not saying everyone ought to go out and have as many babies as possible, but antinatalism as a policy, as a way of life - that’s disgusting. It’s sick, evil, and reprehensible.
 
(Part 3, continued from part 2)

Point six: God doesn’t make suffering, we do.

You ask why He couldn’t have just given us paradise. Well He did, and we messed it up. Because we are human. A lot of people have trouble with the concept of Original Sin. They think, well how come just because some distant ancestor (call him Adam if you want) messed up, that we’re all stuck with the consequences? Why is that original sin passed down through the generations? Funny how none of these people have a problem understanding that something like eye color is passed down from generation to generation.

So God gave us paradise. Our distant ancestors messed it up. We continue to mess it up. Yes, God could have stopped us from messing it up. But then we wouldn’t be human anymore. We would be dolls. We would have no free will. In order to be able to choose to be good, we have to have the capacity to choose evil.

God is pretty upset about the state of the world, because He wants us to be happy even in this life, and He of course is pained by all the injustice and suffering that is the result of bad people doing bad things, or good people not doing enough good things. Because of this, God became human. The creator of the universe took on the form of a helpless human baby, pooped his diapers, had teething pains, fell down when he was learning to walk, grew up, did chores, got blisters, watched (as far as we know, since Joseph isn’t alive at the time of Christ’s ministry) the man who had fed and cared for Himself and his mother die, and then ended his adult life suffering one of the most horrible tortures devised. Through the testimony of His human life God showed us how to be good people. He showed us how to make the world a joyful and happy place full of love. Instead of destroying our humanity and our free will and making us be good, He showed us how to be good. And He promised us that if we let him take us there, we will be in paradise.

Your questions betray some extremely common misunderstandings regarding what Christians actually believe, what Christianity is, and what in particular the Catholic Church teaches. I urge you to talk to the director of your parish RCIA program, get yourself a copy of the Catechism, listen to EWTN, and continue asking questions on this site, so that you can educate yourself with the truth. It sounds like you are thinking about returning to the Church, and it is sad to think that the reasons you have not yet done so might be because someone or something has given you an almost completely false understanding of Church teachings.

Point seven: You’re not an atheist.

Atheism requires the absolute faith that there is no God. Since we can never prove a negative, it requires that absolute faith with no hope of ever having any inkling of knowledge that it might be true. You just have doubts about the existence of God and the divinity of Christ. Guess what - so did Saint Peter. They made him the first Pope.
 
Dear Feltmeanings

your post has touched some feelings in me and I hope what share with you can help you a bit.

First of all, I agree with A-Augustinus that depression is a real illness. I am SO GLAD that you got to feel a joy that you had never felt before. Depression is an illness that attacks joy and hope. Feeling those things is not a fake, but real… they are God-given feelings. Happiness is a gift and we are allowed to feel it.
And all the more when the antidepressants helped you overcome sin (and maybe helped you admit to the stealing you talked about?) that shows that they are HELPING you, and not numbing your real self.
🙂

Many years ago I started taking Prozac for obsessive-complsive disorder (off it again now for quite a while), and in the beginning I had very mixed feelings about it. I was afraid it might make me a bad person (one of my problems has been that I feel TOO responsible for everything/everyone around me), and also I was worried that I liked my new identity (the Prozac girl 😉 ) too much and it might just all be a fake and a “false god”. I talked to a priest about it who totally tried to calm these fears in me, he was very very cool about it and we had a really good conversation. Looking back I see how the medication helped me overcome a crisis at that time, that I maybe even “needed” that “new identity” thing to help me out of the hole I had been in… like a little “high” I was getting.
And I realized that it actually helped me be a better person, helped me be there better for a sick friend for example without getting too compulsive about it and too overloaded with all other kinds of unnecessary worries.

As for doubts: They are normal. You can pray to God to help you with them. Thoughts can come against our will. Our faith can still be strong.

Suffering in this world - a priest in a homily recently talked about free will. How we have been given free will and we can also choose to do bad things. It quite made me think. I don’t remember now which were my thoughts and what is from the homily, but I remember coming to the conclusion: If we didn’t have free will, but just chose good because it was forced upon us by god - we wouldn’t be individulas/humans/OURSELVES at all. What goodness, what faith is that, if it is forced upon me? We must choose it with our own hearts.
And we can choose it even in a world where not everyone has chosen it (or not yet. See how optimistic I am? 😉 ). Even in little things we can do good and make the world little by little a better place.

Hell - here I remember something else a priest said when I went though RCIA becuase I wanted to get confirmed as an adult: He said there was no proof that anybody actually IS in hell. It is a real possibiliy, but we don’t know if anybody has actually chosen it…
And I do believe somebody must quite CHOOSE to be away from God in order to BE away from God. Becuase God wants to save us all… only we must want it too.

Why give life into a bad world… hmmmm maybe that is your depression still speaking a little bit? I must say, I have had my very very hard times but I still believe life, per se, is GOOD. I wouldn’t want to not live, even if life is hard. (I wouldn’t even want to swap lives with somebody else now, even though there have been times when I watched other people thinking how easy they must have it and me with all those fears… ) I believe that everything happens for a reason, even suffering… only we humans cannot see the big picture like God can… have you ever been through something really really hard and afterwards you realized that it has helped you? Helped you grow, or helped you feel real happiness afterward because you appreciated it more?

Just a few thoughts… may God bless you abundantly.

kathrin
 
Jesus said “If you love me, keep my commandents.” The reason you can’t do this is because you have no reason to keep them at this time. Why? Because you don’t love him.

So what you need right now is to find the way to love him and a reason to love him.

When a man and woman meet, it usually isn’t love at first sight. They have to spend time with each other to get to know one another. Then after a time they begin to see the good in the other and then love follows.

You need to get acquainted with Jesus and spend some time getting to know him. Then after a period of time you will begin to appreciate how much he does love you. This will make all the difference in your life. In fact, it has changed so many people, and has turned them around.

But you must never take it for granted that it will just happen. You have to put forth some effort. But then anything worthwhile requires some effort.

My suggestion to you is pick up the New Testament of the Bible and read Mathew and John’s gospel. Get acquantainted with Jesus, get to know him.

At the same time, go to your local Catholic church and talk to the priest about joining RCIA classes which meet once or twice a week to learn about Jesus.

Then this will prepare you to understand just what you need and what you will want to do to have balance and peace in your life.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
A few words of encouragement from a different perspective: I would suggest that you suffer from depression not because of sin or punishment or hell, but because our brains are imperfect biological entities. If medication can ease your suffering, I would encourage you to pursue it responsibly–find a way to function in this world happily. Perhaps Catholicism can provide that happiness, as the folks in this thread suggest. As an atheist, I do not believe in the truth of Catholicism, but I certainly acknowledge the enormous comfort and relief that it can provide to people who suffer. The flip side, however, is the possibility that the church’s teaching about sin exacerbates your suffering rather than eases it. Even the believers in this thread should acknowledge that the church’s promise of salvation fails to connect with all people. If that is the case, do not deny yourself other pathways to ease your sadness.

It is responsible to have reservations about medication. I can’t speak from experience, since I’ve not been on antidepressants, but I am wary of relying on them. Still, their modification of our brain chemistry doesn’t necessarily mean that you aren’t your real self. Lots of things change our brain chemistry. Sunlight changes it. Watching TV changes it. Eating sugar changes it. Praying changes it. I’m inclined to think that if you have chemical imbalances that the antidepressants correct, then you are more able to be your “real” self with them than without. But it would be best to continue to consult with doctors and psychologists for their expertise.

Lastly, I have found that when it comes to questions of sin and hell, an appropriate question to ask is: whom does this behavior harm? What suffering is caused by this sin? If a sin does not cause suffering of real organisms in this world, then surely it does not warrant en eternity of hell. I don’t live a perfect life, but when I do harm, I worry about the people whom I have harmed and I try to remedy it–not that I’m going to hell. I think this is a healthy way to live. Good luck to you.
 
ChevalierdeJohn said:
We talk about Heaven and Hell as “places” but of course these are spiritual; they are not physical locations. Still, your soul is eternal so it has to exist in some spiritual “state” (as in state-of-mind). If you choose, of your own free will, not to go to Heaven - then Hell is the alternative. It’s not a lake filled with fire and torture; it’s just not the perfect blissful happiness that is Heaven. And the only way that anyone ever ends up in the state of “Hell” is that they freely and with complete knowledge of the consequences choose hell over the alternative.
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Won’t the soul be united with the body after the Final Judgment, so the pain would be physical and spiritual?

What is your own position about the fewness of the saved idea? Do you think most people go to Heaven (most after a long stay in purgatory), or do only a few people (mostly practicing Catholics) go there?
 
Yes. I agree with the other posters. If it’s a real depression, you need counseling and medication. I know what a hell depression is. I was also a depressive kid and had such a very difficult teenage life. I mean such illness causes me to think of the worst. I feared hell a lot. I had such a terrible inferiority complex and anxiety attacks.

I was converted to the Catholic faith in College.I did not go through counseling…but I got into many retreats which healed me. I also have a Christian community to go to and friends to share my problems now. I recently had a very challenging trial and my depressions overcame me for months.

But due to financial problems I could not get myself to see a doctor or buy medicine. What helped me are daily catechesis, the Holy Eucharist, spiritual direction from a nun and perseverance in prayer (the spiritual approach). I’m well again and recovering. But I do highly suggest that you see first a doctor aside from the spiritual approach.
 
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