A possible step towards unity?

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Why can’t the Pope call a council in an area that is traditionally Latin and Greek(Sicily, Africa) to solve the disunity? Invite the Assyrians, Orientals, and Eastern Orthodox. Tell them that as brothers in Christ they must attend and solve it. Would that be possible?
Bless you, friend!

While the Pontiff cannot compel Orthodox hierarchs to participate, he certainly can and does lead his Curia and brother bishops, engaging in meaningful dialogue aimed at fostering positive relations and working toward ultimate reunion. The Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church was established by the Holy See and 14 autocephalous Orthodox churches in 1979 for this purpose. It first met in 1980, and most recently in 2010.

I also posted earlier reference to a document published in October 2010 by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, a separate group based here in the US that is the oldest, continuing organization dedicated to Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.

STEPS TOWARDS A REUNITED CHURCH: A SKETCH OF AN ORTHODOX-CATHOLIC VISION FOR THE FUTURE @ scoba.us/articles/2855.html

I hope you find it an interesting read!
 
So it was a deliberately provocative statement? Interesting…

And your reply is a deft dodge, too, by the way 👍. You have yet to address the issue of any changes the Orthodox Church might have to make in order to make reunion possible. Or, is it all down to Rome and the Catholic Church? You know, the old “it’s my (Orthodox) way or the highway” gambit? Because if that’s really the case, and if that represents the majority Orthodox viewpoint, how can we ever expect to get anywhere towards reunion? And why should we bother trying?
But reunion of churches isn’t just a political/diplomatic matter, in which compromise is a virtue. It’s a question of deeper conversion on both sides to the One Faith we share. If one side has moved away from that faith to a greater degree or in different ways than the other, then reunion will involve more change on that side.

Catholics have been saying for a while (this is even in the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, which is not for the most part very friendly to Eastern perspectives) that the only change the Orthodox have to make is to accept communion with Rome (and thus papal authority, if in a highly muted form compared to the way it’s exercised in the Western Church).

The Orthodox are not obligated to be equally accommodating. This isn’t a quid pro quo.

For instance, given that Catholics clearly agree that the Filioque is not a necessary part of the Creed, and may even be unorthodox in its Greek translation, it seems quite possible for Rome simply to omit the Filioque from the Creed. In return, Orthodox would have to accept it as a valid theological opinion in its proper Latin context. Yes, Rome would be “giving up more” in a way, but that’s just not the issue.

Edwin
 
Byzcath, if that were the case, and the East rejects the pope’s call, wouldnt that make them in sense wishing for the divide to continue? I see no reason other than petty selfishness and arrogance as to why they wouldn’t even want to participate. My $.02 on the matter.
 
RC Church can have unity tomorrow all it has to is recant…
So, we’re back to “my way or the highway”? 😦

Dear Frank J–I had thought that the discussion here had moved somewhat beyond that. And, without specifying precisely what wrong or sin the Roman Catholic Church must recant of, just to say something like that is not really helpful, don’t you think?

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Shalom,
Jeff
 
Many times here, history has been invoked and discussed. I’m wondering…can anyone suggest a book or books of history about the schism, what led up to it, how it occurred, etc., etc., etc. where the author(s) don’t have an overwhelming bias or an axe to grind? And…just to make it more interesting…something that’s readable for an undereducated schmo like me :D?? And to make it even more interesting…something that costs, say, under $40? I know, it’s a tall order, but surely there must be something out there…👍

Thanks!

Jeff
 
Agreed. And this puts an end to idea of veto/review of clergy by the laity.
And not everyone, even Orthodox, has a spiritual father in the formal sense, or one really worthy of the title, unfortunately. Not a criticism, just an observation.
 
Many times here, history has been invoked and discussed. I’m wondering…can anyone suggest a book or books of history about the schism, what led up to it, how it occurred, etc., etc., etc. where the author(s) don’t have an overwhelming bias or an axe to grind? And…just to make it more interesting…something that’s readable for an undereducated schmo like me :D?? And to make it even more interesting…something that costs, say, under $40? I know, it’s a tall order, but surely there must be something out there…👍

Thanks!

Jeff
No matter who writes the history, imo, nothing will be settled until the issue of authority is settled. I learned one new piece of information on this thread. On the Orthodox side, joe six pak has veto power over bishops in council. I kinda got that impression over many conversations and many threads but it was confirmed here. The question is, are the Orthodox here, expressing that as an opinion or fact. I’d like to see an official Orthodox answer properly referenced.
 
But reunion of churches isn’t just a political/diplomatic matter, in which compromise is a virtue. It’s a question of deeper conversion on both sides to the One Faith we share. If one side has moved away from that faith to a greater degree or in different ways than the other, then reunion will involve more change on that side.

The Orthodox are not obligated to be equally accommodating. This isn’t a quid pro quo.
Thanks so much for this post - it is refreshing to see an “outside” perspective so to speak in this thread!

If it were only as simple as eliminating Papal Primacy, reunion may have been possible a long time ago. And yes, the attitude in Rome had to and did change before the climate could be ripe for meaningful dialogue and reconciliation. We cannot exactly say that Rome was kind to Eastern Catholicism either, particularly in the US, at the turn of the last century, so your “read into” sections of the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia is not unfounded. But much has changed since!

That said, much has also developed on both sides since the One, Holy, Apostolic Church became divided, and that is why reconciliation (a penitential sacrament in both faith traditions) will require an understanding of such in order to progress and ultimately succeed.

Yes, it’s not quid pro quo by any stretch, but it is not unilateral change that will make this a reality either.

The issue of governance still exists even today within each community, Orthodox and Catholic. The Catholic Church has a structure that conflicts in many regards with the synodal model of Orthodoxy and the early Church - that much must be and is acknowledged, but it has also progressed as a result of inner reflection and meaningful dialogue with the Orthodox. By the same token, this structure and reference to a “central authority” has sustained unity within Catholicism depite massive and frequent geopolitical change over the course of history.

The decentralized synodal model running in combination with multiple levels of geopolitcal change have created a somewhat fractured brotherhood if you will in Orthodoxy. In recent history, multiple geographic displacements of the faithful also coincided with these changes, presenting further great challenges to Orthodox hierarchs and clergy in maintaining the faith. The Orthodox Church in America is an interesting case study in that regard - not to be at all critical of OCA - just the opposite - we are respectful of how this Church has had to adapt on multiple occasions to social and political change, surviving to continue to proclaim God’s word to an increasingly diverse community of believers. We respect the challenges they have confronted, with love of God and His people. The strength and conviction of Orthodox faithful today is a living testament to their efforts and success.

The issue of governance will nonetheless need to be agreed to the satisfaction of all if unity is to be achieved and sustained. The lessons of history should be invaluable in this regard.

Please keep posting here - you’re opinions and observations are most welcomed and challenge us all!
 
No matter who writes the history, imo, nothing will be settled until the issue of authority is settled. I learned one new piece of information on this thread. On the Orthodox side, joe six pak has veto power over bishops in council. I kinda got that impression over many conversations and many threads but it was confirmed here. The question is, are the Orthodox here, expressing that as an opinion or fact. I’d like to see an official Orthodox answer properly referenced.
I would tend to agree with you about the issue of authority. However, as far as joe six pak is concerned, before he and his brethren can veto anything, there has to be some leadership producing something subject to a veto (or not, as the case may be), no? And, if said leadership does produce something that would lead us to unity again, I for one would seriously hope that they would be able to convince joe and his buddies of its value.
 
And not everyone, even Orthodox, has a spiritual father in the formal sense, or one really worthy of the title, unfortunately. Not a criticism, just an observation.
Indeed, but we all have one true Spiritual Father!
 
Think about it. Rome could not agree to recant the primacy, unless the primacy is true, but then that is a contradiction – otherwise each eparch and diocean bishop must agree so it requires a synod.
I disagree with that (it’s supremacy by the way, not primacy), but if that’s the feeling in the west than they can go ahead and call a synod to recant. It doesn’t particularly make a difference to the East.
 
No matter who writes the history, imo, nothing will be settled until the issue of authority is settled. I learned one new piece of information on this thread. On the Orthodox side, joe six pak has veto power over bishops in council. I kinda got that impression over many conversations and many threads but it was confirmed here. The question is, are the Orthodox here, expressing that as an opinion or fact. I’d like to see an official Orthodox answer properly referenced.
What are you reading? There was one EO on this thread who said something in agreement. But everyone else on this thread made it clear that there was no such thing as a joe six pack veto.
 
I would tend to agree with you about the issue of authority. However, as far as joe six pak is concerned, before he and his brethren can veto anything, there has to be some leadership producing something subject to a veto (or not, as the case may be), no? And, if said leadership does produce something that would lead us to unity again, I for one would seriously hope that they would be able to convince joe and his buddies of its value.
Part of the problem I see Re: the Orthodox position, are these positions, albeit needing official verification
  • Joe six pak and bishops are peers
  • joe six pak can veto bishops in council
 
Part of the problem I see Re: the Orthodox position, are these positions, albeit needing official verification
  • Joe six pak and bishops are peers
  • joe six pak can veto bishops in council
I think you’re reading a bit into the analogies offered.

And the term “Joe Six pack” implies any idiot can do it. That is certainly not the case, and no one has said anything close to that.
 
Part of the problem I see Re: the Orthodox position, are these positions, albeit needing official verification
  • Joe six pak and bishops are peers
  • joe six pak can veto bishops in council
I don’t think Joe and the bishops are precisely peers, as in being ecclesiatically (or is it ecclesiologically?) equal. If that’s the case, why would he need to obey them in anything?

Joe and his buddies, if there are enough of them, can though, as far as my understanding takes me, veto bishops in council. They can even throw them out of “office” if I’m not mistaken.

Even so, as I said earlier,* "there has to be some leadership producing something subject to a veto (or not, as the case may be), no? And, if said leadership does produce something that would lead us to unity again, I for one would seriously hope that they would be able to convince joe and his buddies of its value. "* And I don’t believe we have anything yet that even approaches being sent to Joe and Co. for their approval or veto. If so…where is it?
 
I think you’re reading a bit into the analogies offered.

And the term “Joe Six pack” implies any idiot can do it. That is certainly not the case, and no one has said anything close to that.
Just so we’re all on the same page about Joe–are we not really referring to the laity as a whole, in any particular diocese or collection of dioceses, rather than “just any idiot”?
 
I think you’re reading a bit into the analogies offered.

And the term “Joe Six pack” implies any idiot can do it. That is certainly not the case, and no one has said anything close to that.
Okay, forget the term joe six pak. btw, It was never meant as any “idiot”. Use laity, nd non bishops etc instead. That’s clearly the sentiment being expressed. If this is erroneous, please correct the impression. No one so far has said this impression is incorrect.
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Just so we’re all on the same page about Joe–are we not really referring to the laity as a whole, in any particular diocese or collection of dioceses, rather than “just any idiot”?
Not even diocese, but an entire Church (the diocese itself is subject to a bishop who is himself subject to his Holy Synod).

Perhaps a wrong impression has been given that the laity actually holds power, they don’t. Refer to the Nikonian Reforms where a very large portion of the laity rebelled against the bishops.

The laity as a whole confirm the decisions of the bishops. Not one, not a subsection, but the entirety of it.

The deposition of Bishops, as far as I know, can only be done by the Holy Synod with reason.
 
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