A possible step towards unity?

[Hesychios]

However, I would see nothing wrong with a Catholic parish and an Orthodox parish having joint prayer sessions, dinners, doing works of charity together, etc.

In Illinois not far from where I presently live there are a Ukrainian Orthodox and a Ukrainian Catholic parish literally less than a block apart. They each moved to their present locations independently of each other from the big city at different times (so they had no prior connections AFAIK).

I am told the relations between the two are cordial, and the priests and believers attend one another’s parish festivals. Beyond that I cannot say, but I can see the benefit of such arrangements as joint prayer sessions for peace or for unity, joint sponsorship of charitable causes and pierogi cookoffs, that sort of thing

 

[jwinch2]

In Illinois not far from where I presently live there are a Ukrainian Orthodox and a Ukrainian Catholic parish literally less than a block apart. They each moved to their present locations independently of each other from the big city at different times (so they had no prior connections AFAIK).

I am told the relations between the two are cordial, and the priests and believers attend one another’s parish festivals. Beyond that I cannot say, but I can see the benefit of such arrangements as joint prayer sessions for peace or for unity, joint sponsorship of charitable causes and pierogi cookoffs, that sort of thing

Where I used to live in VA, when I went to the “Old World Festival” it was all Eastern European food and the Orthodox priest was front and center. But, one of the local Catholic priests was down there meeting people as well. During the “Latin Festival” a few months later, it was the opposite.

Both of the Orthodox parishes in my town are former Anglican Churches so who knows what the food would be like. Lots of casseroles likely.

Its the worst kept secret in our deanery that the parishes with the best food for parties are also the poorest. Most of the Hispanics in town go to one parish even though there are Spanish masses at other ones. In addition, most of the Vietnamese in town go to a specific parish, even though there is a Vietnamese pastor at another one. Either way, those two parishes have a reputation for the best food. I told my wife the other day that not understanding a word of the Mass might be a small price to pay for great tamales or pho.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

That is what I have meant.

Of course they are welcome to attend. I had to put this in as a clarification, because everything else I wrote assumed that the visitors would be hoping to take communion, but that is not actually what the other poster said, he said “It will consist of individual Catholics and Orthodox attending each other’s services…” which is not exactly asserting that they would want to take communion.

Perhaps a better way of saying that would have been “all visitors are welcome, the more the better”.

Okay, that’s what I thought; I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t mistaken.

Hey, another question: if I as a Latin Catholic were to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, could I receive the antidoron at the end?

 

[Hesychios]

Okay, that’s what I thought; I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t mistaken.

Hey, another question: if I as a Latin Catholic were to attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, could I receive the antidoron at the end?

Usually it is available during/after communion, not at the end of liturgy. The recipients of communion will turn to the table (ours is way back near the vestibule) to take the wine and bread, it helps safely consume the Holy Eucharist. Orthodox whom have not partaken wouldn’t normally approach the blessed bread.

It is at this time that Orthodox whom have partaken may take a little extra bread and carry it over to visitors. However, as common a practice as that appears to be it is probably not the custom everywhere, so I will not make any assumptions.

There is always a veneration of the cross at the end of liturgy, which all visitors participate in (if they wish). It is a good time to say hello to the priest.

 

[andrewstx]

I would agree with this. Of course, I’ve seen Orthodox (both Eastern and Oriental) who come to Church simply to receive the Eucharist (they come late, leave early). For those types, it might be very convenient to visit a Latin Catholic parish if available.

Blessings,
Marduk

Perhaps it might help some if the Orthodox shortened thier Liturgy just a little. Nothing drastic but what good is the litany for the catechumens when their are no catechumens present?

I know that’s traditional, but does it make sense?

 

[Ruprecht]

Usually it is available during/after communion, not at the end of liturgy. The recipients of communion will turn to the table (ours is way back near the vestibule) to take the wine and bread, it helps safely consume the Holy Eucharist. Orthodox whom have not partaken wouldn’t normally approach the blessed bread.

It is at this time that Orthodox whom have partaken may take a little extra bread and carry it over to visitors. However, as common a practice as that appears to be it is probably not the custom everywhere, so I will not make any assumptions.

There is always a veneration of the cross at the end of liturgy, which all visitors participate in (if they wish). It is a good time to say hello to the priest.

Hesychios:
Good point in your last two sentences: introduce yourself and get some antidoron…if there is any left after the altar boys raid the blessed bread being held for the veneration! Also, if you attend the Liturgy with an Orthodox friend, he or she can bring some back at Communion. Which jurisdiction did you plan to visit, Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, or other?

 

[andrewstx]

In the OCA and Antiochian churches antedoron is given twice. First after recieving Holy Communion, and then again when the cross is venerated.

Hesychios was the church you attend afilliated with ROCOR?

 

[Ruprecht]

Perhaps it might help some if the Orthodox shortened thier Liturgy just a little. Nothing drastic but what good is the litany for the catechumens when their are no catechumens present?

I know that’s traditional, but does it make sense?

Let me be polite and say that we would not shorten the Divine Liturgy just to increase attendance. But I have not attended one that included any of the catechumen prayers or the dismissal. Those who sneak in after the Anaphora and slip out after communing have denied themselves the time to prepare to welcome Jesus, or to reflect and meditate on Him. Communion is not meant to be a quickie snack, fast food, grab and run like McDonalds. It really bugs me when I see folks slip in and out. The entire Liturgy builds up to receiving His Body and Blood and you lose out if you are not there.
So, to answer your last question, YES, it makes all the sense in Heaven and on Earth.
This is said with all the love I can muster from one Christian to another. My prayer every day is that East and West continue to move closer together and understand each other. God bless the effort.
P.S.: the question in my previous post, about which jurisdiction he would attend, was meant for Fone Bone 2001, not Hesychios!! Sorry for the confusion!! bob.c

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Any Orthodox bishop who will admit a Roman Catholic bishop to the table is at risk of relativising the faith. If anyone wonders why Eastern Catholic bishops are not in communion right now with Orthodox bishops, that is the reason. They ‘broke faith’ by admitting Roman Catholic bishops to their Holy Eucharist long ago.

I do always enjoy reading the posts of our dear brother Hesychios, as I believe he sincerely strives to enlighten us on the Orthodox point of view in such discussions in a fair and balanced way. For this we are truly grateful!

I must admit, despite being an Eastern Rite Catholic and Christian, I do at times find it hard to fully appreciate the positions articulated by the Orthodox faithful as they relate to our theological differences. I shall continue to try to do so, as I do pray that we can find the path to lasting reconciliation. I do fervently believe that we have more in common than that which separates us, especially with respect to the Eastern Rites.

That said, I did highlight the text above from a recent post of Hesychios, as it relates to the Eucharist. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church does recognize the validity of the Holy Sacraments of the Orthodox Churches. As such, Orthodox are invited to receive the Holy Eucharist in our Church. We understand that the requirements of the respective Orthodox Church of our guests may preclude them from participation, but it is offered nonetheless.

Even in this generation, there are families that still feel the effects of the divisions that have plagued us in our Church history, in particular the Byzantine Catholic Ruthenian Church here in the US. I’m sure many avid participants in this forum know of that history. That said, as a result, I think we as American Ruthenian Catholics have a uniquely hightened sensitivity to these matters, and pray perhaps a bit more fervently than most on the Catholic side for lasting reconciliation.

Surely we alll must admit that we have come a long way. I do think the current dialogue between the Roman Pontiff and the Orthodox Patriarchs is more frequent and fruitful than has been the case in many years. I see very visible signs of brotherly respect between the hierarchs and clergy on both sides in the US, now more so than I can ever recall.

I make this case and final point not to further debate on any specific point raised in this thread thus far, per se, but in this great season of peace, joy and hope, I thought it would be nice for us all to reflect for a moment on the real progress that has been made in drawing us Catholics and Orthodox closer together.

In joyful anticipation of the coming our Savior born anew, I wish all those who participate in this forum and their families a blessed Nativity season!

S’nami Boh! God is with us!

 

[Nine_Two]

In the OCA and Antiochian churches antedoron is given twice. First after recieving Holy Communion, and then again when the cross is venerated.

I think it depends on the parish actually. I attend two OCA parishes, one less frequently than the other, at one the antidoron is given twice, as you say, at the other it is only given once, at the veneration of the cross.

 

[Mickey]

I must admit, despite being an Eastern Rite Catholic and Christian, I do at times find it hard to fully appreciate the positions articulated by the Orthodox faithful as they relate to our theological differences.

We also find it hard to fully appreciate the Catholic position on many theological differences.

But we continue to talk.

 

[mardukm]

Perhaps it might help some if the Orthodox shortened thier Liturgy just a little. Nothing drastic but what good is the litany for the catechumens when their are no catechumens present?

I know that’s traditional, but does it make sense?

I believe the Litany of catechumens is a reminder for the fully initiated (kind of like how Latin Catholics view the sign of the cross as a reminder of their baptism).

At my former Coptic Orthodox parish, we had two masses, one that was the usual 3 hours long, and one that was about 1-1/2 hours for visitors and inquirers. I’d never heard complaints from anyone in the parish on the matter, but when I have mentioned it on the I-net, there have been accusations of “modernism” or “giving in to the world.” Baloney to all that. Christ was the ultimate example of “meeting halfway,” and if the Church herself cannot do that for the uninitiated, then she is in danger of retarding her mission.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Hesychios]

Hesychios was the church you attend afilliated with ROCOR?

No, the cathedral of the OCA in Chicago.

I must say that the practice in the neighborhood parishes near and in Chicago is the same as at the cathedral from my experience, although I have not been everywhere.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Usually it is available during/after communion, not at the end of liturgy. The recipients of communion will turn to the table (ours is way back near the vestibule) to take the wine and bread, it helps safely consume the Holy Eucharist. Orthodox whom have not partaken wouldn’t normally approach the blessed bread.

It is at this time that Orthodox whom have partaken may take a little extra bread and carry it over to visitors. However, as common a practice as that appears to be it is probably not the custom everywhere, so I will not make any assumptions.

Hesychios: Good point in your last two sentences: introduce yourself and get some antidoron…if there is any left after the altar boys raid the blessed bread being held for the veneration! Also, if you attend the Liturgy with an Orthodox friend, he or she can bring some back at Communion.

Okay, so it would be weird or disruptive to partake if one didn’t receive Communion (and obviously a Catholic visitor wouldn’t be receiving Communion), but an Orthodox might very well bring some back from the table for you?

Which jurisdiction did you plan to visit, Greek, Antiochian, OCA, ROCOR, or other?

It was just a hypothetical; I haven’t actually made plans at the moment to visit a specific Orthodox church. I’m actually quite happy with the Byzantine Catholic churches in my area. I would love to visit an Orthodox Divine Liturgy someday, though.

I do have a question about the jurisdictions you mentioned, though: how did it come about that there’s an Orthodox Church in America, when there are/were already Orthodox churches in the United States from other autocephalous Orthodox churches, like the Antiochian? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is the OCA is some way supposed to be more “American” than the Antiochian, Russian, or Greek Orthodox churches in the United States?

In the OCA and Antiochian churches antedoron is given twice. First after recieving Holy Communion, and then again when the cross is venerated.

Hesychios was the church you attend afilliated with ROCOR?

So would a non-Orthodox visitor be allowed to partake of the antidoron when it is given at the veneration of the cross?

 

[Nine_Two]

I do have a question about the jurisdictions you mentioned, though: how did it come about that there’s an Orthodox Church in America, when there are/were already Orthodox churches in the United States from other autocephalous Orthodox churches, like the Antiochian? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is the OCA is some way supposed to be more “American” than the Antiochian, Russian, or Greek Orthodox churches in the United States?

Actually the OCA’s forebarrer was the first Orthodox juristiction in North America.

When the Bolsheviks took control of the Church in Russia they also made a grab for the arm of the Church in Russia, but the Patriarch, St. Tikhon granted permission to all Russian Churches outside of Russia to break off communication with the Mother Church until it was possible to resume communication. This led to the birth of both ROCOR and the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church (later renamed OCA). This power grab also led to the various Orthodox ethnicities already established in the Americas to send home for their own bishops.

Orthodox juristictional practice in North America is in a sad state, and is sadly a holdover from the Soviets that just won’t die.

 

[Nine_Two]

So would a non-Orthodox visitor be allowed to partake of the antidoron when it is given at the veneration of the cross?

Absolutely. Anyone may partake of the antidoron.

 

[andrewstx]

Okay, so it would be weird or disruptive to partake if one didn’t receive Communion (and obviously a Catholic visitor wouldn’t be receiving Communion), but an Orthodox might very well bring some back from the table for you?

It was just a hypothetical; I haven’t actually made plans at the moment to visit a specific Orthodox church. I’m actually quite happy with the Byzantine Catholic churches in my area. I would love to visit an Orthodox Divine Liturgy someday, though.

I do have a question about the jurisdictions you mentioned, though: how did it come about that there’s an Orthodox Church in America, when there are/were already Orthodox churches in the United States from other autocephalous Orthodox churches, like the Antiochian? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but is the OCA is some way supposed to be more “American” than the Antiochian, Russian, or Greek Orthodox churches in the United States?

So would a non-Orthodox visitor be allowed to partake of the antidoron when it is given at the veneration of the cross?

Yes and I confused you with Hesychios,(soory about that).

The reason I asked about ROCOR is in my limited experience the only Orthodox churches I have been to that give the antidoron after Communion only were ROCOR, while the others Greek, OCA and Antiochian give it twice at Holy Communion and the veneration of the Holy Cross.

At the veneration everyone present including non Orthodox are welcome to take a piece. Only one lamb is consecrated from 5 loaves and the rest is distributed as antidoron.

 

[Mickey]

Anyone may partake of the antidoron.

It depends. Many parishes allow it…as an economia. Some very traditional/conservative parishes and monasteries reserve the antidoran only for the Orthodox faithful who did not receive Holy Communion (and who have honored the same fasting preparation as those who received the Eucharist).

 

[Warrenton]

I can see Roman Catholics doing this, because we can see that many who post at CAF are clamoring for a chance at receiving communion in Orthodox temples. Some are genuinely hurt when they learn there is no offer to commune.

Sorry for the delayed response.

I agree. I also think it is not material which side initiates the drawing closer. While some Catholics may be hurt at being refused communion, it will eventually serve to remind them of the nature of the eucharist, which may not really be strengthened by too much reception.

The cat is already out of the bag to a degree. There are Orthodox who have basically permitted entire Episcopalian communities into the fold. The “Antiochean” Church comes to mind. Those are the Orthodox who are most likely to attend a reconstituted traditional Latin mass. From there, the thing spreads. But you are correct certainly - most individuals will be Latins going East, and that is related to the comment you made about why Orthodox tend not to go west, though this may change in English speaking countries over the course of the next generation. It may also change in Russia, depending on whether the episcopate acts courageously on moral issues facing the west.

When we attend each other’s services over time (I am not speaking from experience), I believe that we begin to see theology and Church from a new perpective, which we compare with and evaluate against what we came in with. We harmonize insofar as possible, distinguish real from apparent contradictions, and re-evaluate what seemed settled. Invariably, this entails change. Equally invariably, it does not entail as much change as we expected.

That is just how the human mind functions. Because people are social, those who have connections to both worlds act as a kind of bridge.

It is not accidental that schism happened at a point in time when Christianity was a rising force in the world. Entire new lands and peoples were becoming Christian, which offset the losses inflicted by Islam. At the time, the decision was not final with Islam anyway, and it seemed that the tide of that challenge might be receding. Many in North Africa and the east were still Christian, also.

Schism was a luxury that Christendom could afford.

The process is now running in reverse. That is why unity will occur.

Either that, or we will all need to ask the Turks very kindly for the use of their caves.

 

[Nine_Two]

It depends. Many parishes allow it…as an economia. Some very traditional/conservative parishes and monasteries reserve the antidoran only for the Orthodox faithful who did not receive Holy Communion (and who have honored the same fasting preparation as those who received the Eucharist).

Interesting. I was unaware of this. It is not a practice I’ve seen used.