A possible step towards unity?

[1inICXC]

What if instead of looking for a top-down solution, Catholics and Orthodox tried for a bottom up solution? Individual Roman and Orthodox dioceses, but not entire churches having dialogue with eachother with the goal of intercommunion. For example, Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese A are not in communion with each other. Roman Bishop A and Orthodox Bishop A reach terms for intercommunion between their dioceses. Roman Diocese B and Orthodox Diocese A may not be in communion with each other, but this would not reflect the terms between Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese B. Considering that Catholics already permit Orthodox to communion and in limited circumstances Orthodox permit Catholics to communion, is there any reason why this could not work on a larger scale if it already can on a smaller scale? Maybe not even dioceses but individual parishes with pastors agreeing to communion?

I don’t know whether I agree with your proposed example but I definitely do with the concept of bottom up.

I can’t remember where, but in the middle east somewhere, where Christians are being persecuted, the Catholics and the Orthodox pulled together and went as far as obtaining permission to celebrate Easter together every year.

I think we should at least begin with unifying the dates of Easter, by refusing to adhere to this diabolical division of having the some rejoice at the Resurrection while the others are still fasting and going through the Passion- it’s absurd and it diminishes all of CHRIST’s teaching, I’m glad atheists don’t pick up on this because in itself itis a HUGE argument against Christianity.

Unity should be a priority for every single Christian if we truly care for Jesus’ wishes. We should try in whatever way we can, to reach out in humility and love to Christians of other denominations and involve the Bishops or demand of our Bishops to do the same and then work our way up

 

[5Loaves]

Most parishes will allow it through economia. But if you attend an Orthodox Monastery…it may be best to play it by ear.

If you attend an Orthodox Monastery you may be asked to leave at “catecheumens depart”.

 

[5Loaves]

Recently, as a Roman Catholic I attended a Greek Orthodox Liturgy. Prior to the Liturgy I asked the pastor if I, as a Roman Catholic, could receive the Eucharist. He asked me one question: “Did I believe that the Eucharis is the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ”. When I replied “Yes” he said he would have no objection to receive the Eucharist. I have tried this at another Orthodox church but I did not receive permission to receive the Eucharist.

As this thread and others like it indicate “it depends” when it comes to some of these issues. In my own limited experience which is mainly local to where I live I have many times heard the Greek Orthodox faithful respond when hearing I am an EC to the usual question of “Where is your parish?”-- “We’re almost the same aren’t we?” or words to that effect. I’ve not encountered this response with the OCA. Whether this is in part because the Greek Orthodox here are largely cradle Greek Orthodox and the OCA parishes here have a lot of folks who have come in from outside of Holy Orthodoxy I don’t know. I know our priest used to say that historically the Greeks see visitors as possible customers and the Russians see visitors as possible invaders…

 

[Elijahmaria]

For this reason when I am going to DL in an Orthodox Church I fast as if I were receiving Eucharist, although I won’t, but I might receive antidoran from a parishioner, and will have some when I go up to kiss the hand Cross.

These are not small things. They are acts of hope and love.

Blessings to all in this thread…

M.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Always a unique dilemma with your life.

I take it you find a way to ocassionally receive communion at an Eastern Catholic Church?

(You don’t have to answer if that is prying too much).

Eastern Catholic or Roman rite…depending on where I am at the opportune moment in time…I am an equal opportunity lover of all liturgy… There is a seasonal opportunity to actually get to a mission of my canonical parish and I do that when I can. That’s my favorite. It’s tiny and all young people and wonderfully off-key. No pretense there. Just the obligation of lovers… It’s where I began my movement toward the east.

M.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

If you attend an Orthodox Monastery you may be asked to leave at “catecheumens depart”.

Heck, when I attended vespers at an Orthodox monastery, I wasn’t even allowed into the nave; I had to remain in the narthex.

 

[Mickey]

If you attend an Orthodox Monastery you may be asked to leave at “catecheumens depart”.

Perhaps at certain monasteries.

 

[Mickey]

Heck, when I attended vespers at an Orthodox monastery, I wasn’t even allowed into the nave; I had to remain in the narthex.

Yes. I have seen this before at monasteries.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Yes. I have seen this before at monasteries.

It should be noted that I hold no ill will towards them; their house, their rules. Even still, a deacon came out and censed us

 

[Nine_Two]

Reminds me of a vigil service I attended at a monastery with a group of Protestants (just a few weeks before I was received), they made the women stay in the Narthex (Although this might have been due to space concerns, it was pretty cramped in there). Although as a vigil service a fair amount was out in the Narthex anyway.

 

[5Loaves]

I know I can seem argumentative here, but I’m actually a big supporter of dialogue and eventual reunion.

I attended a Ruthenian parish once, and after the liturgy I went forward to venerate the blessing cross and kissed the priest’s hand - that seemed to surprise him! I received the antidoron as well.

We’re a very tiny parish and nearly every service we have a at least several visitors. Sometimes they are Orthodox. We have a regular parishioner now who is Orthodox. I don’t think our priests are surprised when they come up or don’t come up for Eucharist and/or final blessing. It seems like any Orthodox visitor who comes in to our temple for DL is going forward for Eucharist and final blessing and kissing of priest’s hand. I’d say penance is another thing. I don’t know that they have asked for that sacrament from our EC priests.

We’ve been talking about kissing the blessing cross and the priest’s hand and getting antidoran at the end of DL. Also, at the Orthodox Church I always ask for Father’s blessing when I first met up with him upon arriving, unless it’s clearly bad timing for him. He’s a spiritual father to me, even though I don’t receive the Holy Mysteries from him, I receive his blessing and anointing on those festal Vigils when that happens.

 

[5Loaves]

It should be noted that I hold no ill will towards them; their house, their rules.

If it happened to me, I’d agree completely with you.

Even still, a deacon came out and censed us

 

[paglione]

What if instead of looking for a top-down solution, Catholics and Orthodox tried for a bottom up solution? Individual Roman and Orthodox dioceses, but not entire churches having dialogue with eachother with the goal of intercommunion. For example, Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese A are not in communion with each other. Roman Bishop A and Orthodox Bishop A reach terms for intercommunion between their dioceses. Roman Diocese B and Orthodox Diocese A may not be in communion with each other, but this would not reflect the terms between Roman Diocese A and Orthodox Diocese B. Considering that Catholics already permit Orthodox to communion and in limited circumstances Orthodox permit Catholics to communion, is there any reason why this could not work on a larger scale if it already can on a smaller scale? Maybe not even dioceses but individual parishes with pastors agreeing to communion?

 

[paglione]

I think this would work. It should definitely be considered. I would like to see a reuniting of The Churches within my lifetime so I think this would be worth trying.
paglione

 

[jwinch2]

No, I think you misunderstand me; I didn’t say that the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches was the problem, nor the existence of Western Orthodox Churches. Both of these have as their origin an attempt at resolving the schism, which has not yet been fully realised. It is regrettable, but understandable.

I said the problem is the duplication of the hierarchy, which suggests an ecclesiology of two churches, rather than one church in trouble. The ancient tradition was that one city could only have one bishop. Although we have lost this, and in places there is overlapping Catholic hierarchs of different rites (again, acting as though the church is not one), the message that this sends to the Orthodox is quite clear: we may respect the validity of your priests and sacraments, but not the authority of your bishops. I don’t suspect that this makes the Orthodox bishops feel very open to dialogue.

I understood what you meant. I guess my response was not clear. With that in mind, I will attempt to state my comments more succinctly.

I do not believe that this is a only a function of the Latin Church. However, from your comments, it almost appears as if you do not believe that the Orthodox Church has moved ecclesiastical structure into the west. However, there are multiple Orthodox Bishops claiming jurisdiction in what have traditionally been under the umbrella of the Latin Church.

I have no problem with what you are suggesting. In fact, I think it is very good. I fully agree that part of the process should be recognizing the territory of the other and believe that this would help in the process of restoring union. What does not seem to add up is the idea that the Catholic Church has moved their Bishops into Orthodox territory while the Orthodox Church has not done the opposite.

Did I miss your response to this?

Merry Christmas,

 

[AnthonyJ]

They actually asked you how you were received into Orthodoxy?

There are Orthodox monasteries that wouldn’t commune me either since I was received into Orthodoxy by chrismation, not baptism.

 

[Mickey]

The biggest barrier to unity is a lack of love - which, I think, is borne of a sense of grievance cultivated from a tendentious and highly mythologized sense of history. While all are susceptible to this problem, it seems to be endemic to new Orthodox in America.

This comment in itself is opinionated and accusatory and reeks of vitriol. It does nothing for unity. One could also put the blame on Roman/Eastern Catholic triumphalism or a myriad of other reasons…but what good would that do?

It also serves no purpose to calumniate each others saints. When blame is set forth upon saint Justin (Popovich)…or Fr Romanides is described as being dyspeptic…it does nothing accept to drive deeper wedges into a widening chasm between the two Churches.

This type of opinionated accusatory diatribe only hardens hearts. It is a shame.

 

[MrPip]

This comment in itself is opinionated and accusatory and reeks of vitriol. It does nothing for unity. One could also put the blame on Roman/Eastern Catholic triumphalism or a myriad of other reasons…but what good would that do?

It also serves no purpose to calumniate each others saints. When blame is set forth upon saint Justin (Popovich)…or Fr Romanides is described as being dyspeptic…it does nothing accept to drive deeper wedges into a widening chasm between the two Churches.

This type of opinionated accusatory diatribe only hardens hearts. It is a shame.

They say “perception is everything”. Whoever “they” are. It seems your perception of this post is different from mine. How are his comments accusatory and, especially, vitriolic? How does it display rancor, vituperation, and/or bitterness?

There is certainly more than enough “blame” to go around for the lack of unity, both between the various Orthodox Churches which are or are not in communion with each other, and between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. To say that a lack of love is a barrier is certainly an opinion, but if you think about it, if there was more love and charity between the various parties, there would also probably be less polemicism, less triumphalism, and less hardening of hearts. And if all those things are in decline, then the chances for unity could only increase. But, that’s just my opinion .

What dvdjs opines about “new Orthodox in America”, I think is very close to the mark, if I understand him correctly. My own experience with American Orthodox converts has shown me that, very broadly speaking, they tend to behave in the manner described by dvdjs more than so-called “cradle” Orthodox I have encountered. Now, that is just my experience and I would never pretend that my own experience is representative of that of anyone else, especially of a whole group of people.

I have seen that where polemics and nit-picking are set aside, and Catholics and Orthodox do inter-commune eek:) (and yes, it does happen, both in the U.S. and various parts of Europe ), love abounds and peace prevails. I know many, especially netodox, disagree with me about this, but we are, after all, both parts of the true Body of Christ, both parts of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, with very little of any major substance dividing us. Again, just my opinion.

 

[dvdjs]

This comment in itself is opinionated and accusatory and reeks of vitriol. It does nothing for unity. One could also put the blame on Roman/Eastern Catholic triumphalism or a myriad of other reasons…but what good would that do?

It is probably unwise to project vitriol on others - not the least of which the EO commentators that I quoted.

Of course there are others who share in this “blame” - as I already indicated - and other barriers to unity: I made no claim that my post enumerated every barrier. However, coming to terms with the truth, where ever it takes us, does help unity; it is the key, I think, to metanoia; resistance to truth hinders unity

It also serves no purpose to calumniate each others saints. When blame is set forth upon saint Justin (Popovich)…or Fr Romanides is described as being dyspeptic…it does nothing accept to drive deeper wedges into a widening chasm between the two Churches.

The criticism of Fr Romanides and others comes from the EO theologian and layperson that I quoted. I don’t think that they calumniated anyone, unless one takes criticism as calumny. If the criticisms are wrong, then it might be more productive to point out where they miss the mark, rather than suggesting that the criticism is bad ipso facto

This type of opinionated accusatory diatribe only hardens hearts. It is a shame.

I did give an opinion about what I think is an important barrier to overcome in the quest for unity - a quest that I am serious about. I stand with the others that I quoted on this matter - at least two of who are very serious scholars.

 

[steve_b]

So my position is this:
-1- Most Orthodox have no interest in asking for sacraments from Roman Catholic priests, and would only do so if they were in desperate peril and had no other options. (Perhaps many Orthodox would not seek permission from their bishop, who probably would say no anyway, but that is not what I am claiming here, they don’t really have a significant desire to anyway).

In all reality, it’s probably the same in reverse also.
H:

-2- If most Orthodox in north America routinely disobeyed their church rules and regularly received in Roman Catholic parishes, the RC would never even know it. They really do not know who they are passing the Holy and Sacred Mysteries to. They might mistakenly even think some of their pews are filling up again for some other reason, like better homilies. As a gesture it would be lost.

Well, to be fair about this, take for example this last weekend. Christmas eve, our parish had masses also in the gym besides the Church, in order to handle the numbers of people. 2 masses 5 different times on the eve, with 1000 people in each place. That’s 10,000 people at mass, and they had to turn 100’s away at each mass, because there wasnt enough room inside, and because of fire code issues. Christmas day it was just as packed. So you’re correct, probably zero chance anybody is checking for the disobedient issues you bring up.

The parish 7 miles up the road has smaller numbers than that, (no gym to use) but very busy with 5 masses just the same. And the parish 10 mi down the road is a very active parish also, again with 5 masses.

Okay, you might retort that’s Christmas and it’s unique. OK I give you that. Easter is also busy like that. But our weekend masses, @ 5:30 p.m. Saturday, and 7:30, 9:00, 10:30, and 12:00 on Sunday are all full. Thinking of adding a permenant 5:00 Sunday mass also.

So to be fair, If one is in a tiny parish, then yes, it’s easy to spot newcomers. But as you know, most Latin parishes aren’t small.
H:

It is probably true that many Roman Catholics (probably not most) do have an interest in making an excursion to an Orthodox parish at least once and receiving communion, and would do so if their own church were to say it fulfils their Sunday obligation and is OK.

In fact we know some try to receive anyway, and some posters here claim to have succeeded. But it’s not like large numbers could expect to get away with that.

Orthodox priests distribute the Holy Mysteries by name to people they know, or have been introduced to or have spoken to previously. Most of these people would be in their flock and he wiill have heard their recent confessions.

What you say, might work for tiny congregations, but that doesn’t work for parishes of 2- 3000+ families.
H:

The idea that some renegade Roman Catholics could swarm the Orthodox and take communion anyway, defying the schism, bespeaks of a lack of understanding of how it works in Holy orthodoxy. It seems to assume that Orthodox distribute the Holy Mysteries to anyone who presents themselves. I have visions of flash mobs of RC …

I don’t think you have to worry.
H:

It’s like we cannot expect to all get free dental work by mobbing the dental offices, or free car washes by jamming the car wash parking lots, how can anyone expect to show up in Orthodox temples and just expect to be offered the Holy Eucharist?

Kind of a lousy analogy don’t you think?
H:

This kind of defiance by the laity most certainly would require the collusion of the priests.

If the intention is not to receive communion, but merely to be present, I am sure they can be accomodated, but this will be a bigger problem for the Papacy than for the Orthodox, and the Papacy has bigger problems than this could ever be.

For the record, I personally have never heard a priest do what you suggest.