It’s probably unwise to pass the blame around.
You can find someone to criticize anything if you search…probably another unwise action.
Yeah…I suppose we could explore that…but perhaps on another thread.
And I stand with Fr Romanides and St Justin on most matters.
I think it was a polemical blast and a generalization which targets a very large group.
And my experience is completely different than yours and dvd’s. The vast majority of converts and cradle Orthodox in America I have met are very loving and devout Orthodox Christians.
Yes.
It is not the norm. And will not be the norm until the Churches are as one. Sadly, I do not expect this to happen any time soon.
I think there are many serious issues dividing us. But that is my opinion.
Mr Pips’s sense of what I wrote needs qualification. As noted in the remarks I quoted, the problem is largely an internet one. That is a relatively small group. Vocal, but small.
I agree that the issue of blame should not have been raised. In fact, that is why I put it in quotes in my response.
I am not sure that you can. More to the point, I am not sure that you can so easily search for criticisms from an advocate. What keywords one would use to find Orthodox critics Orthodox historians?
Most? Very interesting. On which matters do you depart from them? Perhaps the same matters on which I and the people I quoted do.
Like I said, “perception is everything”. Our perceptions are quite obviously different here. So be it.
!
Indeed.
It would not be different if the “experts” were “sidelined”. The laity would not settle for a false union…as history attested to after the “Council” of Florence.
There are those on both sides who might take that stand…but the dialogue continues.
And it will only be by the grace of God that the Churches will be as one…not in our time…in God’s “time.”
I cannot understand what you are trying to say here. But one can most definitely find criticisms for just about any position.
If you would like to start a thread on St Justin and Fr Romanides…I will attempt to defend them in my limited knowledge. I am not a theologian…but I will do my best.
That’s quite long. Are you talking about the SSPX article?
Which problem?
The point was that the quotes were not simply a criticism - which may be easily found, especially when criticism is merited - but criticism from loyal adherents. A criticism of Orthodox historians by sincere Orthodox. That specific type of criticism is hard to search.
No, the point was not about defending them, but about understanding the nature of the disagreements that you suggested that you have with them.
No. That thread and quote are easy to find, just search on the text of the quote. That search is easy.
Yeah. Who are those people?
If we were to hold to a discussion of the substance of their arguments, rather than simply dismiss them, then perhaps some some progress to unity could be made.
Why are you afraid to look at critics of Father John. He does a great deal for which we can be critical. He was critical of his own excesses concerning St. Augustine in his own lifetime. His historical biases are legion and do about as much damage as Legion.Yeah. Who are those people?
Anyway…I am bowing out of this thread at the risk of allowing my resposes to become too uncharitable. I think it is time to expand my ignore list. :yup:
It is very easy to find an Orthodox individual to be critical of an aspect of Holy Orthodoxy…or a Roman Catholic to be critical of an aspect of Roman Catholicism…or an Eastern Catholic to be critical of Eastern Catholicism…etc.
It proves nothing.
I look to the patristic understanding and interpretation.
Blessed Nativity to you Mr Pip. :tiphat:
I am not afraid. I have read his critics many times. I don’t agree with them. I like Fr John’s writings. I think he was brilliant. Critics are a dime a dozen.
I am not afraid of post-Florence politics. Why do you say such things?
I am not running. Why do you say such things? I have studied the coucil of Florence in detail and I will never be convinced of the Latin perspective.
You bet. And this is the most amazing one, worth repeating:
Maybe, just maybe, we should get all male egos out of this problem and let women - holy myrrh-bearers - take the lead in bringing this good news.
Males with egos???
In The Church ?I think in about five or six generations, after some big changes in Rome … maybe.
Oh boy, here we go again…
), to always do, to the best of their ability, that which is best for the other. Well, that’s my experience, anyway. How does only Rome making big changes fit that bill?
)