A possible step towards unity?

[Nine_Two]

You keep accusing us of having a “My way or the highway” attitude (and I won’t deny there is some truth there), but you won’t answer my question, what does the West require us to change for Communion to be taken up again?

Because I have a feeling it is the exact same thing that we’re saying is the big thing the West needs to change, the Church’s view on the Papacy, in which case it isn’t a case of us having a “My way or the highway” attitude, but of both sides having that same attitude. Both sides having that attitude makes any talk next to worthless.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Assuming the issue of Papal Primacy were resolved satisfactorily from the Orthodox point of view, what impediments would remain in restoring full unity & communion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

I refer once again to a compelling document published in October 2010 by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation.

STEPS TOWARDS A REUNITED CHURCH: A SKETCH OF AN ORTHODOX-CATHOLIC VISION FOR THE FUTURE @ scoba.us/articles/2855.html

This document (i) cited papal primacy as the only real impediment to restoration of full unity and (ii) outlined in fair detail constructs for governance of the prospectively reunited Apostolic Churches that seemed to represent a balanced approach, mindful of the considerations of each side, Catholic and Orthodox.

That said, despite the learned (name removed by moderator)ut and charitable manner in which this was produced, there may be issues that some feel still remain as potential roadblocks. What might they be, specifically?

I am prayful that (i) we can consider this document and (ii) engage in true, charitable discussion in this thread to help make unity a reality. We are all called by Christ to make this happen!

God is with us! … and with and in Him, all things are possible!

 

[MrPip]

You keep accusing us of having a “My way or the highway” attitude (and I won’t deny there is some truth there), but you won’t answer my question, what does the West require us to change for Communion to be taken up again?

Because I have a feeling it is the exact same thing that we’re saying is the big thing the West needs to change, the Church’s view on the Papacy, in which case it isn’t a case of us having a “My way or the highway” attitude, but of both sides having that same attitude. Both sides having that attitude makes any talk next to worthless.

It’s not an “accusation”, unless, of course, it really does apply. “If the shoe fits…” But you are right, of course…if both sides have the same “it’s my way…” attitude, it’s as bad as only one side having it. So, I guess it’s down to the experts, the bishops, orthodox theologians, papal advisors, the pope himself, to hammer this out in terms of language and interpretation that will be acceptable to all–or at least enough to move in the right direction.

I won’t answer your question because I think it’s probably self-evident and has been discussed many times before. No one yet, btw, has seen fit to answer my question and steve b’s about what steps Orthodoxy is taking. Or, is that, too, self-evident and we’re just missing it?

By the way…to be perfectly honest and upfront with you and others here, I am not a theologian, not even close!! Not only that, but there are others here, such as Hesychios, whose breadth and depth of knowledge of Orthodoxy (and perhaps even Catholicism–) is far greater than mine. So, I’m trying, sometimes successfully and sometimes not, to participate here without making a complete fool out of myself .

I will read the document ByzCathCantor has linked, hopefully understand most of it, and go from there . Just out of curiosity, is that document one that has found acceptance amongst Orthodox bishops outside of the U.S.?

 

[jwinch2]

That said, despite the learned (name removed by moderator)ut and charitable manner in which this was produced, there may be issues that some feel still remain as potential roadblocks. What might they be, specifically?

I am prayful that (i) we can consider this document and (ii) engage in true, charitable discussion in this thread to help make unity a reality. We are all called by Christ to make this happen!

God is with us! … and with and in Him, all things are possible!

I remember reading that article with pleasure when it first came out. I am hopeful that the leaders within the Orthodox Church and Catholic Church can work things out.

My impression, based on what I read here and elsewhere as well as conversations with Orthodox Christians, is that the laity within the Orthodox Church are significantly more opposed to restoration of full communion than the episcopate. In the Catholic Church, particularly the Roman Rite, the majority of the laity within the Catholic Church are completely uninformed when it comes to the Orthodox; or, if they are knowledgeable about the situation at all, they are more open to seeing reunion take place, particularly Eastern Catholics.

I could easily be wrong on those observations, but that is my perception at this time.

 

[Nine_Two]

It’s not an “accusation”, unless, of course, it really does apply. “If the shoe fits…” But you are right, of course…if both sides have the same “it’s my way…” attitude, it’s as bad as only one side having it. So, I guess it’s down to the experts, the bishops, orthodox theologians, papal advisors, the pope himself, to hammer this out in terms of language and interpretation that will be acceptable to all–or at least enough to move in the right direction.

As I said, there is certainly some truth to it, so yes, the shoe is at least partially on (That metaphor seems to lose its luster when the agreement isn’t complete. )
While those groups may be important for the Catholic side, the Orthodox absolutely needs the laity convinced for anything to work, and that requires more then top level discussions.

I won’t answer your question because I think it’s probably self-evident and has been discussed many times before. No one yet, btw, has seen fit to answer my question and steve b’s about what steps Orthodoxy is taking. Or, is that, too, self-evident and we’re just missing it?

I assume the self-evident answer is exactly what I said, a revised view of the papacy.
As to what actions the Orthodox Churches are taking, I haven’t really followed so my answer is certainly far from complete, but our hierarchs are engaging in talks with Rome, and certain hierarchs (Metropolitan Hilarion foremost among them, although quite a few priests I’ve met at the local level as well) encourage Catholics and Orthodox to work together for common causes, and generally to get to know, and understand, each other.

 

[steve_b]

Assuming the issue of Papal Primacy were resolved satisfactorily from the Orthodox point of view, what impediments would remain in restoring full unity & communion of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches?

I refer once again to a compelling document published in October 2010 by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation.

STEPS TOWARDS A REUNITED CHURCH: A SKETCH OF AN ORTHODOX-CATHOLIC VISION FOR THE FUTURE @ scoba.us/articles/2855.html

This document (i) cited papal primacy as the only real impediment to restoration of full unity and (ii) outlined in fair detail constructs for governance of the prospectively reunited Apostolic Churches that seemed to represent a balanced approach, mindful of the considerations of each side, Catholic and Orthodox.

That said, despite the learned (name removed by moderator)ut and charitable manner in which this was produced, there may be issues that some feel still remain as potential roadblocks***.*** What might they be, specifically?

I am prayful that (i) we can consider this document and (ii) engage in true, charitable discussion in this thread to help make unity a reality. We are all called by Christ to make this happen!

God is with us! … and with and in Him, all things are possible!

As Vico earlier posted, Bp Kalistos Ware identified Primacy is the central issue of disunity. Maybe Bp Ware was drawing from this committee you reference… Identifying primacy as the problem and knowing it is a roadblock not just a potential roadblock, that’s handy knowledge, but wouldn’t you agree, it’s not new information. It gets us right back to what both sides have already known for a looooooong time, and where this disunity has been stuck for all that time…over Authority…expressed universally. Without an office of final appeal, there is no resolution, only ongoing arguing which is what we have now between both sides…

Didn’t Jesus settle this issue back at Ceserea Philippi?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Identifying primacy as the problem and knowing it is a roadblock not just a potential roadblock, that’s handy knowledge, but wouldn’t you agree, it’s not new information.

Indeed, it’s not new information. I intentionally opened that post with a postulate, then a question.

Postulate = assume that the papal primacy issue is resolved

Question = what roadblocks remain?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Indeed, it’s not new information.

However, that a joint committee, the oldest formal Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in existence, formally stated that this is the only real impediment is new and unprecedented. That they also went so far as to suggest in fair detail a role for the Pontificate and a system of governance is new and unprecedented.

Again, what else remains?

 

[MrPip]

However, that a joint committee, the oldest formal Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in existence, formally stated that this is the only real impediment is new and unprecedented. That they also went so far as to suggest in fair detail a role for the Pontificate and a system of governance is new and unprecedented.

Again, what else remains?

Agreement from Rome and a majority of Orthodox bishops?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Just out of curiosity, is that document one that has found acceptance amongst Orthodox bishops outside of the U.S.?

A great question - I have been trying to research this. Will update in a follow-up post …

 

[steve_b]

However, that a joint committee, the oldest formal Orthodox-Catholic dialogue in existence, formally stated that this is the only real impediment is new and unprecedented. That they also went so far as to suggest in fair detail a role for the Pontificate and a system of governance is new and unprecedented.

Again, what else remains?

like other joint committees, they discuss as we’re doing right now. Neither you or I or any joint committee can speak officially. So iow, our opinions and $5.00 will get us a cup of Starbucks coffee.

 

[Elijahmaria]

You keep accusing us of having a “My way or the highway” attitude (and I won’t deny there is some truth there), but you won’t answer my question, what does the West require us to change for Communion to be taken up again?

Return the pope to the dyptichs and do not claim that the contested doctrine are heretical and do not try to change the doctrinal wholeness of the papal Church. Pay respectful attention to the Petrine ministry…and work out in advance what that means for Patriarchal Sees.

I don’t see anything else necessary for the resumption of communion.

I also see the resumption of communion as the only way through to the grace that would make us genuinely brothers and sisters in faith.

M.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Agreement from Rome and a majority of Orthodox bishops?

That is certainly how they seemed to have left it …

If this statement does get taken with due consideration at the next session of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (a logical next step), it will be interesting to see if other issues are elevated to same degree as papal primacy.

I am still curious as to what some of our frequent posters will have to say, bearing in mind that a group of well intentioned thought leaders from both sides found enough charity and strength to publish this document with conviction.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

like other joint committees, they discuss as we’re doing right now. Neither you or I or any joint committee can speak officially. So iow, our opinions and $5.00 will get us a cup of Starbucks coffee.

Well, I guess I’ll just buy you a cup of Starbucks and call it a day …

But respectfully, I think this committee did a little more than simply “discuss”!

 

[steve_b]

Well, I guess I’ll just buy you a cup of Starbucks and call it a day …

I’m sure I would enjoy it, and the company :coffeeread:

BCC:

But respectfully, I think this committee did a little more than simply “discuss”!

Still, nothing happens without approval.

For example. [Same type of committee]

pcf.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

notice the note at the top of the doc? (emphasis mine)

:
The following is the original English text of the ‘Ravenna Document’ which was discussed and unanimously approved by the members of the Joint International Commission for the Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church during the tenth plenary session of the Commission held in Ravenna from 8-14 October 2007. Thus, the document represents the outcome of the work of a Commission and should not be understood as an official declaration of the Church’s teaching. The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity has provided translations of the text in Italian, French and German.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

On a lighter note, looks like we made some great strides toward unity in Bethlehem this Christmas …

Police sweep through Bethlehem church to break up scuffles between rival clerics - video

guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/dec/28/palestinian-police-bethlehem-church-scuffles-clerics-video

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Still, nothing happens without approval.

For example. [Same type of committee]

pcf.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

notice the note at the top of the doc? (emphasis mine)

Of course, from the leadership on both sides. When I asked what remains, Mr. Pip rather quickly retorted “Agreement from Rome and a majority of Orthodox bishops?”

But this latest document goes much further than Ravenna. In fact, it is exactly this type of proposal that many had hoped would have come out of Ravenna.

Mutual agreement and approval aside, I still fear that we have not reached a point where the faithful would fully embrace reunity. However, there is a good deal of leadership coming from the top these days. A somewhat dated and light-heartedly presented example is a good one nonetheless:

youtube.com/watch?v=X7BXaZwEb9Y

And another, more seriously presented and recent example:

youtube.com/watch?v=Y9ylAABIN_g

Peace be to all!

 

[theidler]

I pray for unity from the bottom of my heart between the Orthodox East and the Catholic West…:grouphug:
They are both a part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church in my view.

 

[hazcompat]

The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

scoba.us/articles/2855.html

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx

“But how,” I asked Father Seraphim, “can I know that I am in the grace of the Holy Spirit?”

“It is very simple, your Godliness,” he replied. “That is why the Lord says: ‘All things are simple to those who find knowledge’ (Prov. 8:9, Septuagint). The trouble is that we do not seek this divine knowledge which does not puff up, for it is not of this world. This knowledge which is full of love for God and for our neighbour builds up every man for his salvation. Of this knowledge the Lord said that God wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2:4). And of the lack of this knowledge He said to His Apostles: Are you also yet without understanding (Mat. 15:16)? Concerning this understanding [15], it is said in the Gospel of the Apostles: Then opened He their understanding (Lk. 24:45), and the Apostles always perceived whether the Spirit of God was dwelling in them or not; and being filled with understanding, they saw the presence of the Holy Spirit with them and declared positively that their work was holy and entirely pleasing to the Lord God. That explains why in their Epistles they wrote: It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us (Acts 15:28). Only on these grounds did they offer their Epistles as immutable truth for the benefit of all the faithful. Thus the holy Apostles were consciously aware of the presence in themselves of the Spirit of God. And so you see, your Godliness, how simple it is!”

The fact that I am a Monk and you are a layman is utterly beside the point. What God requires is true faith in Himself and His Only-begotten Son. In return for that the grace of the Holy Spirit is granted abundantly from on high. The Lord seeks a heart filled to overflowing with love for God and our neighbour; this is the throne on which He loves to sit and on which He appears in the fullness of His heavenly glory. ‘Son, give Me thy heart,’ He says, ‘and all the rest I Myself will add to thee (Prov. 23:26; Matt. 6:33),’ for in the human heart the Kingdom of God can be contained.

Thy Kingdom Come.

peace

 

[theidler]

The challenge and the invitation to Orthodox and Catholic Christians, who understand themselves to be members of Christ’s Body precisely by sharing in the Eucharistic gifts and participating in the transforming life of the Holy Spirit, is now to see Christ authentically present in each other, and to find in those structures of leadership that have shaped our communities through the centuries a force to move us beyond disunity, mistrust, and competition, and towards that oneness in his Body, that obedience to his Spirit, that will reveal us as his disciples before the world.

scoba.us/articles/2855.html

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/wonderful.aspx

“But how,” I asked Father Seraphim, “can I know that I am in the grace of the Holy Spirit?”

“It is very simple, your Godliness,” he replied. “That is why the Lord says: ‘All things are simple to those who find knowledge’ (Prov. 8:9, Septuagint). The trouble is that we do not seek this divine knowledge which does not puff up, for it is not of this world. This knowledge which is full of love for God and for our neighbour builds up every man for his salvation. Of this knowledge the Lord said that God wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I Tim. 2:4). And of the lack of this knowledge He said to His Apostles: Are you also yet without understanding (Mat. 15:16)? Concerning this understanding [15], it is said in the Gospel of the Apostles: Then opened He their understanding (Lk. 24:45), and the Apostles always perceived whether the Spirit of God was dwelling in them or not; and being filled with understanding, they saw the presence of the Holy Spirit with them and declared positively that their work was holy and entirely pleasing to the Lord God. That explains why in their Epistles they wrote: It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us (Acts 15:28). Only on these grounds did they offer their Epistles as immutable truth for the benefit of all the faithful. Thus the holy Apostles were consciously aware of the presence in themselves of the Spirit of God. And so you see, your Godliness, how simple it is!”

The fact that I am a Monk and you are a layman is utterly beside the point. What God requires is true faith in Himself and His Only-begotten Son. In return for that the grace of the Holy Spirit is granted abundantly from on high. The Lord seeks a heart filled to overflowing with love for God and our neighbour; this is the throne on which He loves to sit and on which He appears in the fullness of His heavenly glory. ‘Son, give Me thy heart,’ He says, ‘and all the rest I Myself will add to thee (Prov. 23:26; Matt. 6:33),’ for in the human heart the Kingdom of God can be contained.

Thy Kingdom Come.

peace

Amen.