A practical question for Mormons

[majick275]

God has given us all free choice. Some would and some wouldn’t. But I do believe that most would serve coffee, tea and alcohol. It would be hard not to and still stay in business. Also, what would be the point in depraving people their free choice. Now I would draw the line on porn etc. No need to offer that free choice.

well then the Marriott example still holds as they are making a fortune on pay per view porn in their hotels.

 

[Good_Daughter]

well then the Marriott example still holds as they are making a fortune on pay per view porn in their hotels.

This is getting interesting. Would the LDS consider the Marriott Mormons poor representatives of Mormonism?

 

[Good_Daughter]

…the LDS Church has not stated a position as to whether tea and coffee are “objective evils” (as porn would be for example), or merely a matter of “Church discipline”. It would be up to each prospective “restaurateur” to make that decision for herself.

zerinus

How can each person decide for him/herself if something is an objective evil? That makes no sense.

 

[zerinus]

How can each person decide for him/herself if something is an objective evil? That makes no sense.

It can be. This is how:

Romans 14:

13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

zerinus

 

[martig]

Actually, Paul is referring only to the eating and drinking of specific foods here (indeed, something only subjectively “wrong” as in the case of not eating meat on Friday for Catholics or drinking alcohol for Mormons or Muslims). I’m sure you aren’t suggesting that Paul was a moral relativist. There is indeed objective “evil” and the ten commandments are a good place to start.

By the way, from what I read of the Mormon document you referred to as justification for the avoidance of coffee/tea it only notes that Joseph Smith referred to “hot” drinks. Are iced tea or coffee, therefore, allowed or are they the “strong” drink referred to? Just curious.

Mike

 

[zerinus]

Actually, Paul is referring only to the eating and drinking of specific foods here (indeed, something only subjectively “wrong” as in the case of not eating meat on Friday for Catholics or drinking alcohol for Mormons or Muslims). I’m sure you aren’t suggesting that Paul was a moral relativist. There is indeed objective “evil” and the ten commandments are a good place to start.

He was referring to the eating of food offered to idols. He says that to some whose faith is weak, eating food offered to idols may be an offence; but to others whose faith is stronger, it may not be, because they know that an idol is basically nothing. Carrying that analogy to LDS, some people may consider drinking a can of Coke an offence; while others may not. Each is acceptable in his own right, because the Church has not made a ruling on that particular subject.

By the way, from what I read of the Mormon document you referred to as justification for the avoidance of coffee/tea it only notes that Joseph Smith referred to “hot” drinks. Are iced tea or coffee, therefore, allowed or are they the “strong” drink referred to? Just curious.

Joseph Smith was not referring to anything. That is a revelation from the Lord.

Iced tea and coffee is not permissible. By “hot drinks” is meant those substances, because they are normally drunk hot. You can’t make them permissible by just making them cold. By “strong drinks,” as the context makes clear, is meant alcoholic beverages.

zerinus

 

[why_me]

This is getting interesting. Would the LDS consider the Marriott Mormons poor representatives of Mormonism?

Yes, I would. However, it must be determined just how much control the Marriott family has over their own business. In this day of stock market share holders and market share, they may not be in a position of influence.

 

[why_me]

Actually, Paul is referring only to the eating and drinking of specific foods here (indeed, something only subjectively “wrong” as in the case of not eating meat on Friday for Catholics or drinking alcohol for Mormons or Muslims). I’m sure you aren’t suggesting that Paul was a moral relativist. There is indeed objective “evil” and the ten commandments are a good place to start.

By the way, from what I read of the Mormon document you referred to as justification for the avoidance of coffee/tea it only notes that Joseph Smith referred to “hot” drinks. Are iced tea or coffee, therefore, allowed or are they the “strong” drink referred to? Just curious.

Mike

This was batted around on www.mormonapologetics.org and it was determined that cold coffee and tea are a no-no. However, if the caffeine is removed it becomes a different matter. In the old days, the lds were encouraged to avoid the appearance of evil. Thus, non-alcoholic beers and wines would have been considered taboo. Now I have been in a situation were non-alcoholic wine was served in a private mostly mormon party.

 

[why_me]

How many catholics would be alive today if they also had the word of wisdom. Answer: a lot.

The word of wisdom has saved many people from the evils of alcohol and I would invite all catholics to begin to live its principles, including the abstaining from tobacco.

 

[zerinus]

However, if the caffeine is removed it becomes a different matter.

I personally don’t agree with that. The Lord has commanded us not to partake of those substances; but He has not told us what specific ingredients in them are harmful. He has not said that caffeine is the main offending ingredient. Those beverages have hundreds of different substances in them, some of which may be even more harmful; while Caffeine may even be relatively harmless. We just don’t know. So it is best to avoid them altogether, rather than try to second-guess the Lord.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

How many catholics would be alive today if they also had the word of wisdom. Answer: a lot.

The word of wisdom has saved many people from the evils of alcohol and I would invite all catholics to begin to live its principles, including the abstaining from tobacco.

I agree. It has been estimated that abstaining from those substances can increase your life span on average by around ten years. Think of how much you can do in ten years.

zerinus

 

[why_me]

I agree. It has been estimated that abstaining from those substances can increase your life span on average by around ten years. Think of how much you can do in ten years.

zerinus

Not to mention the level of abuse that comes with alcohol abuse. How many catholic women today would be living in pleasant homes without abusive alcoholic husbands if the word of wisdom was practiced. Thereby creating a more god-centered environment for the family.

 

[exiled]

While I"m sure someone else here can identify the teaching, the Catholic Church has also taught that abuse of such substances is sinful.

 

[grandfather]

I agree. It has been estimated that abstaining from those substances can increase your life span on average by around ten years. Think of how much you can do in ten years.

zerinus

Is the average life span of Mormons greater than non-Mormons? If we assume the majority of Mormons abstain from the particular substances and most non-Mormons do not, it seems that Mormons should live longer lives if the estmimate above is correct. I think modern medical science, right or wrong, would say moderate alcohol consumption has health benefits, especially wine. Long term health issues aside, alcohol presents an immediate danger and evil of drunkenness.

A Mormon friend was asked if Mormons can dance. She said of course. There is nothing wrong with dancing. This is not true. There is nothing necessarily wrong, but there can be lots wrong. Many Baptists forbid drinking and dancing. It is obvious to most religious people that some dancing is immoral. Some people dance with the purpose or arousing lust. To avoid this danger some people avoid all dancing. Don’t go near what might be harmful. Why not respect Baptists for being cautious? Does dancing improve our spiritual condition? Who do they harm by not dancing? On the other hand some dancing is harmless fun and entertaining pastime. Similarly, some people drink wine or other alocohol for the purpose of getting drunk. They intentionally seek intoxication. For others it helps their digestion and eases tension. Mormons I do not think would forbid prescribed medicines that do those things, so those purposes alone are moral to them. But in excess those same medicines are deadly. Why not respect Mormons and Bapists or anyone for being cautious and steering clear of what they see as paths that lead to sin? What harm do they do by not drinking coffee or cocktails? It is their business. Our society suffers no harm from having too many sober citizens. We have too many drunks and they do cause harm. There must be other issues that are more essential to explore and discuss among people of different religions who are sincerely interested in dialogue with one another.

 

[Good_Daughter]

How many catholics would be alive today if they also had the word of wisdom. Answer: a lot.

The word of wisdom has saved many people from the evils of alcohol and I would invite all catholics to begin to live its principles, including the abstaining from tobacco.

How many Mormons would be alive today if they also had the truth about the sanctity of all human life from the moment of conception until natural death. Answer: this discussion is giving me a deja vu.

The Catholic Church’s teaching has saved many people from the evils of abortion and I would invite all Mormons to begin to live its principles.

 

[exiled]

How many Mormons would be alive today if they also had the truth about the sanctity of all human life from the moment of conception until natural death. Answer: this discussion is giving me a deja vu.

The Catholic Church’s teaching has saved many people from the evils of abortion and I would invite all Mormons to begin to live its principles.

While I do think the LDS church allows for some exceptions, are they not, by and large, one of the more pro-life religions? Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see them stand up against all abortions, as our beloved church has, but their lifestyles sure seem to witness for pro-life IMO.

 

[Good_Daughter]

While I"m sure someone else here can identify the teaching, the Catholic Church has also taught that abuse of such substances is sinful.

It seems the teachings of the Catholic Church are not as limited as the Word of Wisdom. For instance, a faithful Catholic will try not to overindulge in anything. As it is considered by Mormons to be divine revelation, I’m surprised the WoW doesn’t mention sugar. I know more people addicted to sugar than anything else. In many parts of the world its making us really sick (tooth decay, diabetes, obesity) and even killing us.

Another thing I’m unsure on: If substances proscribed in the WoW are always bad for everyone, how can they be anything but objective evils? Do Mormons see any good or neutral use for something like coffee?

Is WoW an appropriate abbreviation for Word of Wisdom? I have no wish to offend.

 

[Good_Daughter]

While I do think the LDS church allows for some exceptions, are they not, by and large, one of the more pro-life religions? Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see them stand up against all abortions, as our beloved church has, but their lifestyles sure seem to witness for pro-life IMO.

Their lifestyles are a wonderful witness for many things including pro-life to a degree. I just have a hard time understanding how a church can defend unborn life yet leave out “defective” babies or those concieved as a result of tragic circumstances (incest, rape). Don’t those babies need our concern the most? What mother in crisis should have the additional violence of abortion to overcome?

Sanctioning the taking of even a few innocent lives doesn’t seem to make sense for a faith that claims direct and ongoing revelation from God himself.

 

[lukewarm]

While I do think the LDS church allows for some exceptions, are they not, by and large, one of the more pro-life religions? Don’t get me wrong, I’d like to see them stand up against all abortions, as our beloved church has, but their lifestyles sure seem to witness for pro-life IMO.

Once you let in the caveat that abortion is O.K. when the Mother’s health is at stake, it becomes a downward spiral towards O.K.ing the act. I believe it used to state abortion is permissible if mother’s life is at stake only, but was later revised to add mother’s “good health”. Which is always subjective. I read a discussion on MADB and I was shocked at reasons for abortion many LDS came up with. Depression was #1 reason for “health of the mother”. So if mother gets the blues because her hubby is playing golf instead of going to lamaze you can abort. As long as a doctor tells you it’s O.K.

“The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

I don’t consider that statement pro-life at all. Pro life is pro life…

 

[why_me]

“The Church opposes abortion and counsels its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare cases where, in the opinion of competent medical counsel, the life or good health of the mother is seriously endangered or where the pregnancy was caused by rape and produces serious emotional trauma in the mother. Even then it should be done only after counseling with the local presiding priesthood authority and after receiving divine confirmation through prayer.”

I don’t consider that statement pro-life at all. Pro life is pro life…

This position is pro-life. I think that the lds church also takes into account the feelings of the mother. I do know that abortion is very rare. The lds church has lds adoption services for lds women who do not want their babies. These babies are then placed in lds homes. All lds women know that they can use such a service if desired. Hence, abortion is rare.