A preoccupation with modesty - "sex on the brain."

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Anglewannabe said:
Who can really say what turns another one on.
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That reminds of something I meant to say earlier, in regard to the clothing issue (which isn’t really the subject of the OP, but since it came up anyway)…

I know a guy who admitted to having all sorts of fantasies regarding the Sisters who taught at his Catholic school, which I think illustrates – pretty clearly – that clothing has little if anything to do with the matter.
 
Alizarin said:
That reminds of something I meant to say earlier, in regard to the clothing issue (which isn’t really the subject of the OP, but since it came up anyway)…

I know a guy who admitted to having all sorts of fantasies regarding the Sisters who taught at his Catholic school, which I think illustrates – pretty clearly – that clothing has little if anything to do with the matter.
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Yes. Muslim men, for example, have very little self control and very little respect for women as human beings rather than objects, yet they are covered up from head to foot.
 
Debora123 said:
Yes. Muslim men, for example, have very little self control and very little respect for women as human beings rather than objects, yet they are covered up from head to foot.
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I think this is why it’s important to have a healthy channel for sexual desire – so it doesn’t get twisted up and appear in places it shouldn’t. Now that’s easy enough for married people (in theory at least), but what about singles? How can they properly channel it?

I knew a priest who was of the idea that it could be re-directed into non-sexual areas – I believe he was building upon Aquinas and Aristotle with that thought. But I can’t think of any men (myself included) who can say, “Wow, desire’s really kicking in right now. Desire for a woman… But a nice jog or some light reading will do instead. Yeah, that’s the ticket.”

There’s a need to address the realpolitik of the matter.
 
Debora123 said:
Yes. Muslim men, for example, have very little self control and very little respect for women as human beings rather than objects, yet they are covered up from head to foot.
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Although I don’t agree with these Orthodox Jewish men’s attitudes toward sex and have stated in my previous post that it is fundamentally anti-Jewish, I think the rationale for both this community and the Muslim community is that men are the weaker sex and are thus more tempted than women are by nudity of the opposite sex. I don’t think this shows disrespect for women but, on the contrary, is a sign of respect in that women are given the responsibility of not leading men astray. Again, I don’t completely agree with this thinking but, at the same time, there is a kind of logic to it.
 
meltzerboy said:
Although I don’t agree with these Orthodox Jewish men’s attitudes toward sex and have stated in my previous post that it is fundamentally anti-Jewish, I think the rationale for both this community and the Muslim community is that men are the weaker sex and are thus more tempted than women are by nudity of the opposite sex. I don’t think this shows disrespect for women but, on the contrary, is a sign of respect in that women are given the responsibility of not leading men astray. Again, I don’t completely agree with this thinking but, at the same time, there is a kind of logic to it.
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Yep, there’s logic present. But it’s faulty logic, wouldn’t ya say?
 
Tony_the_mad said:
It is my impression that even in cultures where everyone is naked there always seems a way for a woman to act or wear something immodest. It wouldn’t surprise me if the same was true in societies where women are completely covered head to toe.

Immodesty is much more complicated than what is worn. Men seem to always find a way to stroke their libido when in the presence of a woman. And there will always be women that oblige.

I do not suggest that everyone goes naked. I am Catholic too 😉 .

I am more than a little disturbed that the solution too often involves blaming women for what is essentially a problem with men, though.
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“blaming women”? Who said that?

From the Catechism:

"2521 Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.

"2522 Modesty protects the mystery of persons and their love. It encourages patience and moderation in loving relationships; it requires that the conditions for the definitive giving and commitment of man and woman to one another be fulfilled. Modesty is decency. It inspires one’s choice of clothing. It keeps silence or reserve where there is evident risk of unhealthy curiosity. It is discreet.

"2523 There is a modesty of the feelings as well as of the body. It protests, for example, against the voyeuristic explorations of the human body in certain advertisements, or against the solicitations of certain media that go too far in the exhibition of intimate things. Modesty inspires a way of life which makes it possible to resist the allurements of fashion and the pressures of prevailing ideologies.

"2524 The forms taken by modesty vary from one culture to another. Everywhere, however, modesty exists as an intuition of the spiritual dignity proper to man. It is born with the awakening consciousness of being a subject. Teaching modesty to children and adolescents means awakening in them respect for the human person.

"2525 Christian purity requires a purification of the social climate. It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint. Purity of heart brings freedom from widespread eroticism and avoids entertainment inclined to voyeurism and illusion.

“2526 So called moral permissiveness rests on an erroneous conception of human freedom; the necessary precondition for the development of true freedom is to let oneself be educated in the moral law. Those in charge of education can reasonably be expected to give young people instruction respectful of the truth, the qualities of the heart, and the moral and spiritual dignity of man.”

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
2521 …It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden.
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Here’s the question: what then, exactly, are the things that are to remain hidden?
edwest2 said:
2525 …It requires of the communications media that their presentations show concern for respect and restraint.
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I appreciate the Church’s optimism, but that ship has sailed.
 
Alizarin said:
Here’s the question: what then, exactly, are the things that are to remain hidden?

I appreciate the Church’s optimism, but that ship has sailed.
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Alizarin, just some advice… I personally wouldn’t bother.
 
Alizarin said:
Here’s the question: what then, exactly, are the things that are to remain hidden?

I appreciate the Church’s optimism, but that ship has sailed.
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We, the Catholic laity, are the front line in the struggle to instill virtue in public behavior through clear Church teaching. God is with us, so these things are not opinions. The words of the Catechism are the Truth and the Truth will be preached here - by the laity. The Catholic Bishops have given us this mission.

The average person wears clothing - male and female wear underwear. Male and female should never wear so-called swimsuits that are sexually provocative. I will never go to a beach again.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
The average person wears clothing - male and female wear underwear. Male and female should never wear so-called swimsuits that are sexually provocative. I will never go to a beach again.
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I understand where you’re coming from. I guess my question is, why aren’t we as obsessed with stopping other near occasions of sin?

Lust is inordinate desire (so says the CCC), so one can lust after food as well, or money or whatnot. But no one abstains from buying a shiny new car or a big house for fear they tempt someone else to the sin of greed. I don’t forgo a rich dessert in a restaurant in case a nearby patron is tempted to gluttony.

Btw, I don’t go to the beach either, but that’s because I hate fish. And drowning.
 
I don’t really understand what the issue is. Some people can take things too far, but that doesn’t change the fact that women do have a duty to dress appropriately and respectfully, just like men have that same duty. The fact that there are people who have a distorted understanding of modesty doesn’t change anything about true modesty or our obligation to practice it.

Alizarin: in human nature there is no inherent natural drive for greed over a shiny new car or a big house or overeating. There may be an inherent natural drive for reasonable and humane shelter; there may be a desire for a car, but as a means to an end of getting somewhere; there may be an inherent natural desire for food, even sweet and good-tasting food, but not for overeating.

On the other hand, there is an inherent natural desire for sex. Seeing a nice car or a nice house is at most a remote occasion, and only then to some people, to greed, and seeing a good dessert is at most a remote occasion, again only to some people, to gluttony. (Especially with gluttony, since when one is full the natural impulse to stop eating kicks in.) But seeing an immodestly-dressed woman is a very proximate occasion to sexual sin, and men often have to be very mentally firm to avoid it, since nature and the tendency are so strong. Resisting an urge to greed because you see a nice house or an urge to gluttony because you see a nice dessert takes nowhere near the amount of effort as resisting lust.
 
AuditVocemMeam said:
…takes nowhere near the amount of effort as resisting lust.
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Which brings us back to the OP’s original subject: is stringently avoiding it the best way to deal with it?

If I tell you that whatever you do, you must not think of a white bear, under no circumstances let the thought of a white bear into your mind, what happens? As studies have shown, what will most likely happen is that you end up thinking of nothing but the white bear. That’s what they call ironic process theory.

So maybe, we need not be so afraid of sexual thoughts…Maybe the best way to deal with lust is not to run from it like the like the plague, but rather work on a healthy way if integrating it, to bring us to a balanced desire. what do you think? Yes? No? Maybe?
 
Alizarin said:
Which brings us back to the OP’s original subject: is stringently avoiding it the best way to deal with it?

If I tell you that whatever you do, you must not think of a white bear, under no circumstances let the thought of a white bear into your mind, what happens? As studies have shown, what will most likely happen is that you end up thinking of nothing but the white bear. That’s what they call ironic process theory.

So maybe, we need not be so afraid of sexual thoughts…Maybe the best way to deal with lust is not to run from it like the like the plague, but rather work on a healthy way if integrating it, to bring us to a balanced desire. what do you think? Yes? No? Maybe?
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No. Human history tells us this.

biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm

I was taught to hold women in high esteem. Beauty can be admired but no more than that. Modesty clothes the woman and the man in the kind of respect that makes one truly civilized.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
No. Human history tells us this.

biblehub.com/matthew/5-28.htm

I was taught to hold women in high esteem. Beauty can be admired but no more than that. Modesty clothes the woman and the man in the kind of respect that makes one truly civilized.

Peace,
Ed
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Alizarin is not saying that lust is ok. He/She is suggesting that it will be easier to free oneself of lustful thoughts if you don’t spend all your time focusing on the fact that you shouldn’t be lusting or that you need to avoid anyone dressed in certain styles of clothing etc etc. Focusing too much on avoiding something just tends to make us humans think about it all the more. So instead of focusing overly on avoiding sexuality/eroticism/lust we should recognize that lust is wrong, that sexual attraction is natural and a part of humanity and not the same thing as lust but can lead to lust, and go about our day without focusing on all the things that might cause us to lust and how we have to be super careful to avoid looking at anyone wearing such and such clothing, etc.
 
Alizarin said:
Ok, but only facial beauty, or the beauty of the whole body?
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I would argue facial beauty. Beauty of the whole body is really meant to be admired in the intimacy of a marriage relationship. There’s certainly nothing wrong with acknowledging that a person has certain other attributes that are attractive, but who among us can dwell on them long without desire starting to creep into the mix? Not many, and not for long, I would wager.

I see a lot of focus here on modesty’s role in preventing lust in others, but there doesn’t seem to be much mention of the fact that that prevention also lends itself to promoting other things. It makes cooperation with the opposite sex easier, allowing everyone to more easily focus on acts of charity and brotherly/sisterly love. It can help foster true friendship.
 
epiclotus said:
I would argue facial beauty. Beauty of the whole body is really meant to be admired in the intimacy of a marriage relationship. There’s certainly nothing wrong with acknowledging that a person has certain other attributes that are attractive, but who among us can dwell on them long without desire starting to creep into the mix? Not many, and not for long, I would wager.

I see a lot of focus here on modesty’s role in preventing lust in others, but there doesn’t seem to be much mention of the fact that that prevention also lends itself to promoting other things. It makes cooperation with the opposite sex easier, allowing everyone to more easily focus on acts of charity and brotherly/sisterly love. It can help foster true friendship.
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I’m just curious, but do you think nude art, when truly a form of art, is ok? That is a place where the focus is clearly not just the face, but the beauty of the entire body.
 
thewanderer said:
I’m just curious, but do you think nude art, when truly a form of art, is ok? That is a place where the focus is clearly not just the face, but the beauty of the entire body.
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I’m not going to say it’s ok, but I’m not going to say it’s wrong, either. My personal opinion is that nude art is not for the masses. Your average Joe will have a hard time desexualizing the image to recognize the beauty of the form. It is something that is too easily abused by sinful desires.
 
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