A private matter

[St_Francis]

Thanks for your willingness to clarify these points

If you treat fragile people like they are not as worthy of being a member of the body of Christ as the people you love, then they may be more apt to commit suicide.

Here, for example, you mention the behavior of “you” several times. Who are you talking about: Me? People in the Church? The Church hierarchy? Church teachings?

And what exactly are they doing which is causing homosexual people to commit suicide?

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that homosexuals are not considered good enough to join the Church, when there are lots of homosexuals in the Church?

If you want to dispute that treating people in a manner that inflicts harm upon them and then defend it by saying it is church policy to do so, that is your opinion. And if that is the case it says something about how you view and interpret church policy or teachings.

What are “we” doing, and which Church “policy” are we using to defend it?

If you want to say how you treat people is a response to people who have actually asked you to commit mortal sins with them and your response to them is a result of that personal behavior of them toward you, that may be a different case than I have considered. …

What I was doing with the (unclearly) hypothetical situation was to show that just because someone commits suicide, even if they say it was because of something someone else did, it doesn’t mean that what the other person did was a bad thing for them to do.

It would be more truthful to say that the church knows how dangerous being gay is to our faith, because the information is coming firsthand from the large number of gays in the hierarchy. Sort of the “takes one to know one” school of thought.

Are you saying that being homosexual is dangerous to the faith of the homosexual, or that the existence of homosexual people is dangerous to the Church?

And what is this large amount of information coming out from the hierarchy?

 

[St_Francis]

I didn’t notice any insensitivity in any of your posts! I thought they were well-written and quite kind.

Thanks

The horrible event in VA was due to the moral failure of the people who would do such a thing, and reflects back on our heartless and God-less society. And now we have the technology to ruin someone’s life completely. The internet goes on forever, in living color. I can understand why that young man did what he did, and I am praying for his soul and his family.

I have heard of so many cases in which internet abuse (I guess) caused suicides, and others where it caused a lot of pain. It seems like any cruelty can be so greatly magnified by technology, it’s just awful.

 

[St_Francis]

Very interesting discussion.

Well, marriage is a public matter. That is why it’s in front of other people, and* by law*, you have to have two named witnesses.

We straight people have pretty much torpedoed marriage. We do not have any moral high ground when it comes to the staying together. That’s one of the reasons that gay marriage is able to gain a foothold - so many people have failed at it that it isn’t special, it no longer is the glue that keeps society together. For a lot of people, it just doesn’t matter. The fact that God in genesis told us what marriage was, and Jesus reiterated it, doesn’t seem to affect gay people at all…quote]
I think that the fact that society “torpedoed” marriage is a very important point which a lot of people miss, hopefully Catholics less than the non-Catholics, and that this is something which ought to be emphasized. It would be great if we could have a national discussion about marriage in general–I know that I have gained a greated understanding as a result of this issue–but I am afraid that it will not happen in this day of very short attention spans!

 

[edwest2]

Very interesting discussion.

Well, marriage is a public matter. That is why it’s in front of other people, and* by law*, you have to have two named witnesses.

We straight people have pretty much torpedoed marriage. We do not have any moral high ground when it comes to the staying together. That’s one of the reasons that gay marriage is able to gain a foothold - so many people have failed at it that it isn’t special, it no longer is the glue that keeps society together. For a lot of people, it just doesn’t matter. The fact that God in genesis told us what marriage was, and Jesus reiterated it, doesn’t seem to affect gay people at all.

As for gay priests - so what? I tend to think that being a priest is a noble way for a man with SSA to live out his life in holiness, as long as he lives chastely and subscribes to the Church’s agenda and not the gay agenda.

Whoa. We did not torpedo anything. After the Birth Control Pill, which was followed by Adult Bookstores, strip clubs, homosexuality being removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973, Women’s so-called Liberation and the National Organization for Women striking fear into the hearts of women everywhere. “Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!!” They were talking about you guys - you “male chauvenist pigs.”

Well, after guys got trashed for being the evil in the world, is it any wonder that a lot of divorces happened after No-Fault Divorce appeared in the 1980s? How about porn on cable?

Jesus calls us to overcome. Wherever we are in life, whatever we’ve done - we’re called to overcome. Look at Father Corapi’s conversion story. Addicted to drugs and having suicidal thoughts, God came to him.

God bless,
Ed

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Whoa. We did not torpedo anything. After the Birth Control Pill, which was followed by Adult Bookstores, strip clubs, homosexuality being removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973, Women’s so-called Liberation and the National Organization for Women striking fear into the hearts of women everywhere. “Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!!” They were talking about you guys - you “male chauvenist pigs.”

Well, after guys got trashed for being the evil in the world, is it any wonder that a lot of divorces happened after No-Fault Divorce appeared in the 1980s? How about porn on cable?

Jesus calls us to overcome. Wherever we are in life, whatever we’ve done - we’re called to overcome. Look at Father Corapi’s conversion story. Addicted to drugs and having suicidal thoughts, God came to him.

God bless,
Ed

When you take God out of the picture, and put sex as your God, bad things are bound to happen. We’ve messed up the order of things that God wanted - big-time - refusing his gift of children, murdering them when we didn’t prevent them, denigrating men and elevating women, it’s a mess!

 

[edwest2]

It was marketed and sold to us as Compassion! In 1972, women appeared on TV and begged the people: “Please have compassion on poor, young women dying in back alley abortions. Please!” We were also told it was “The most difficult decision a woman will ever have to make and is between her and her God.” We were led to believe it would be used only for emergencies like rape or incest or to save the life of the mother.

Abortion was the ultimate easy solution and the anti-baby pill was the other side of the coin.

I remember No-Fault Divorce being marketed and sold. We were told about bitter court battles and the time, money and effort involved. No-Fault Divorce would solve many problems. What about the kids? The kids that were never born or those families torn apart?

We were only told part of the story or we were just lied to. As long as everything was legal it was now somehow OK. And in a “woman’s right to choose” world, where the heck is the man? Did she get pregnant by herself? Fer cryin’ out loud, where is the man’s right to choose? Seriously. Are men invisible now? I hear about Women’s Rights, so what about men’s rights?

Society can transform itself into something sensible after there is a return to commitment and responsibility as opposed to a culture of casual sex. Sexual self control will keep you away from unwanted preganancies, STDs and easy divorce. Make a plan, find someone and develop a relationship based on friendship and mutual trust, not meaningless ‘test drives.’

I met a beauty in her early 30s, married for only 9 months. Why? After the ceremony, she found out her “husband was a nut.” He wasn’t a nut when they were dating?

Come on, folks. It’s time to be responsible adults, not a buch of irresponsible hippie types. “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” W R O N G.

God bless,
Ed

 

[St_Francis]

It was marketed and sold to us as Compassion! In 1972, women appeared on TV and begged the people: “Please have compassion on poor, young women dying in back alley abortions. Please!” We were also told it was “The most difficult decision a woman will ever have to make and is between her and her God.” We were led to believe it would be used only for emergencies like rape or incest or to save the life of the mother.

Abortion was the ultimate easy solution and the anti-baby pill was the other side of the coin.

I remember No-Fault Divorce being marketed and sold. We were told about bitter court battles and the time, money and effort involved. No-Fault Divorce would solve many problems. What about the kids? The kids that were never born or those families torn apart?

We were only told part of the story or we were just lied to. As long as everything was legal it was now somehow OK. And in a “woman’s right to choose” world, where the heck is the man? Did she get pregnant by herself? Fer cryin’ out loud, where is the man’s right to choose? Seriously. Are men invisible now? I hear about Women’s Rights, so what about men’s rights?

Society can transform itself into something sensible after there is a return to commitment and responsibility as opposed to a culture of casual sex. Sexual self control will keep you away from unwanted preganancies, STDs and easy divorce. Make a plan, find someone and develop a relationship based on friendship and mutual trust, not meaningless ‘test drives.’

I met a beauty in her early 30s, married for only 9 months. Why? After the ceremony, she found out her “husband was a nut.” He wasn’t a nut when they were dating?

Come on, folks. It’s time to be responsible adults, not a buch of irresponsible hippie types. “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” W R O N G.

God bless,
Ed

When I said “we,” I just meant society in general, not each person specifically.

To me, the issue of homosexual “marriage” has been a difficult one. When I hear someone who accepts birth control and easy divorce say that it will destroy the institution of marriage, my mouth falls open. ABC and easy divorce have already destroyed the institution of marriage, and that’s why homosexual marriage can even be an idea at all. Society has no basis at all for forbidding it, because in society in general, marriage has become nothing more than an expensive going-steady.

And I really don’t think we can “turn the clock back” without a move back towards God and His laws. As a society, we no longer have the understanding or even the ability in philosophical thinking which will allow us to move what is in actuality forward.

And while the 60’s did a lot of damage, a lot of the foundation of that damage was laid long before.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It was marketed and sold to us as Compassion! In 1972, women appeared on TV and begged the people: “Please have compassion on poor, young women dying in back alley abortions. Please!” We were also told it was “The most difficult decision a woman will ever have to make and is between her and her God.” We were led to believe it would be used only for emergencies like rape or incest or to save the life of the mother.

Abortion was the ultimate easy solution and the anti-baby pill was the other side of the coin.

I remember No-Fault Divorce being marketed and sold. We were told about bitter court battles and the time, money and effort involved. No-Fault Divorce would solve many problems. What about the kids? The kids that were never born or those families torn apart?

We were only told part of the story or we were just lied to. As long as everything was legal it was now somehow OK. And in a “woman’s right to choose” world, where the heck is the man? Did she get pregnant by herself? Fer cryin’ out loud, where is the man’s right to choose? Seriously. Are men invisible now? I hear about Women’s Rights, so what about men’s rights?

Society can transform itself into something sensible after there is a return to commitment and responsibility as opposed to a culture of casual sex. Sexual self control will keep you away from unwanted preganancies, STDs and easy divorce. Make a plan, find someone and develop a relationship based on friendship and mutual trust, not meaningless ‘test drives.’

I met a beauty in her early 30s, married for only 9 months. Why? After the ceremony, she found out her “husband was a nut.” He wasn’t a nut when they were dating?

Come on, folks. It’s time to be responsible adults, not a buch of irresponsible hippie types. “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.” W R O N G.

God bless,
Ed

I am sure you have already heard that one of the people who pushed so hard for legalized abortion, has admitted to gross exaggeration of the numbers of women who had died from a botched abortion. Yes, we were lied to. We also ate, hook, line, and sinker, the whole notion that sex outside of marriage is either harmless or actually healthy. There used to be 3 STDs, now there are over 30, one of which is fatal, many of which have permanent health consequences. We have unlimited abortion, divorce, child abuse and neglect (which abortion was going to cure - remember “Every child a wanted child?”). I’d say we got duped big-time.

 

[Tigg]

If we don’t want to marry gay people in our church because we are only comfortable having them marry us and not get married themselves for traditions sale, that’s OK the church makes the rules. But to insist that even outside of the church that we can say what the gays can and can’t do seems disingenuous when the church has removed the glass ceiling on promoting gays to positions in the hierarchy.

Peace

I think there is much confusion in your mind regarding church teaching on gays, which BTW, is one of the five non-negotiables. Homosexuality is not a sin in and of itself, but only to the extent that sexual attraction to the same gender is acted upon - in physical relationship and/or lust toward another gay. Further, the Church has issued statements that show her pastoral concern for the proper respect for those afflicted with this “grave disorder.”

The mission of the Catholic Church is to be a beacon of light and truth in matters of faith and morals against the darkness of a world not aware of the path to the Kingdom. To suggest that homosexuality is not a moral issue is what is truly disingenuous and the morality of such clearly falls within the authority of the Church. Whether a believer or not, Catholic, Christian or not, is really not the issue. Because of the role given to Peter when he was handed the keys to the kingdom, the Church cannot be silent - whose silence would be a de facto consent to aberrant behavior.

The “live and let live” attitude you are suggesting is of the world and totally contrary to the will of Christ and His Church who desires eternal life for all. Anyone is free to accept or reject the message; that doesn’t mean the message should not be made known.

 

[portarica]

I think there is much confusion in your mind regarding church teaching on gays, which BTW, is one of the five non-negotiables. Homosexuality is not a sin in and of itself, but only to the extent that sexual attraction to the same gender is acted upon - in physical relationship and/or lust toward another gay. Further, the Church has issued statements that show her pastoral concern for the proper respect for those afflicted with this “grave disorder.”

The mission of the Catholic Church is to be a beacon of light and truth in matters of faith and morals against the darkness of a world not aware of the path to the Kingdom. To suggest that homosexuality is not a moral issue is what is truly disingenuous and the morality of such clearly falls within the authority of the Church. Whether a believer or not, Catholic, Christian or not, is really not the issue. Because of the role given to Peter when he was handed the keys to the kingdom, the Church cannot be silent - whose silence would be a de facto consent to aberrant behavior.

The “live and let live” attitude you are suggesting is of the world and totally contrary to the will of Christ and His Church who desires eternal life for all. Anyone is free to accept or reject the message; that doesn’t mean the message should not be made known.

The church tolerates and condones homosexual behavior within its own ranks. Yet, the church apparently doesn’t feel that behavior interferes with its ability to govern the church.

That is why no Catholic bishops have been asked to step aside because they have engaged in homosexual behavior.

So we have a non-negotiable that is trampled upon everyday, yet no action of substance follows. And while that clerical behavior may be excused by a lack of impeccability , the same behavior when acted upon by another group, that also has a lack of impeccability, is virulently and publicly opposed.

So when it is an issue within the church it is a private matter and when it is an issue outside of the church it is a public matter ?

Peace

 

[PaulinVA]

Whoa. We did not torpedo anything. After the Birth Control Pill, which was followed by Adult Bookstores, strip clubs, homosexuality being removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973, Women’s so-called Liberation and the National Organization for Women striking fear into the hearts of women everywhere. “Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!!” They were talking about you guys - you “male chauvenist pigs.”

Ed. Yes, there are many societal causes for the weakening of marriage in modern life. You’ve cited some of them.

Allowing homosexual marriage might further weaken marriage, but the straight people, through many causes, started the downward spiral.

 

[Seeker2010]

After the Birth Control Pill, which was followed by Adult Bookstores, strip clubs, homosexuality being removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973, is it any wonder that a lot of divorces happened after No-Fault Divorce appeared in the 1980s? How about porn on cable?

Whoa yourself.

Are you suggesting that:

• Birth Control
• Adult Bookstores
• Strip Clubs
• No fault divorce, and
• Porn on cable

Ought be made illegal??? Do you realize you live in a free country?

And are you also suggesting that your church should be charged with deciding what is and is not a bonafide mental illness??

 

[gamewell45]

If prostitution were legalized (which it already is in some areas of the country, I think just counties in Nevada but it could be legal elsewhere I’m not sure) it will affect me whether or not I’m involved with it directly. The same with gay marriage. Their choice to imitate valid heterosexual marriage will affect society. It’s not just about them.

I’m curious, aside from the religious aspect, how does gay marriage effect you? If your in a committed relationship, whether heterosexual or Homosexual, how then does this have a negative effect on you if someone else decides to marry whom they want?

 

[RosaryFan]

Whoa yourself.

Are you suggesting that:

• Birth Control
• Adult Bookstores
• Strip Clubs
• No fault divorce, and
• Porn on cable

Ought be made illegal??? Do you realize you live in a free country?

And are you also suggesting that your church should be charged with deciding what is and is not a bonafide mental illness??

I think what Edwest is saying is that those items listed above are the cause of the strength of the family coming unglued at the seems. I happen to agree with him. Porn is not good for a marriage - not the kind of marriage God intended - with honor, respect and human dignity. Same goes for strip clubs and adult bookstores and birth control. Not good for God’s plan for marriage.

Should they be outlawed? I don’t really know, but why do so many residents get up in arms when a strip club or adult book store opens in their neighborhood?

Incidentally, living in a free country does not mean we should all be free to do whatever the heck we want, with reckless disregard for our society. That is not freedom.

 

[Seeker2010]

I don’t really know, but why do so many residents get up in arms when a strip club or adult book store opens in their neighborhood?

That very much depends on where you live. Down the street from me, a grocery store, arcade, barber, and strip club share the same strip mall, and nobody cares.

Incidentally, living in a free country does not mean we should all be free to do whatever the heck we want, with reckless disregard for our society. That is not freedom.

It means we should all be free to do whatever the heck we want, unless and until our actions cause harm to others. Birth control, porn, strip clubs, etc, do not by definition harm anyone, ergo, ought be allowed in an ostensibly free country.

 

[RosaryFan]

That very much depends on where you live. Down the street from me, a grocery store, arcade, barber, and strip club share the same strip mall, and nobody cares.

It means we should all be free to do whatever the heck we want, unless and until our actions cause harm to others. Birth control, porn, strip clubs, etc, do not by definition harm anyone, ergo, ought be allowed in an ostensibly free country.

Just because you don’t care that there’s a strip club down the street doesn’t mean that the people with children don’t care. And you should care.

Secondly, all those things do cause harm. Look at the condition of the family unit. The family used to be the strength of our society. It’s no wonder we’re such a mess now. Our families are coming unglued.

Picture your father emerging, all smiles, from a strip club at two in the morning. Don’t you think it is harmful for a young man or boy to have that image of his father? What does that do to his future family? To our society as a whole? You want a good way to ruin a marriage? Add porn and strip clubs. Not good for marriage.

 

[Seeker2010]

Just because you don’t care that there’s a strip club down the street doesn’t mean that the people with children don’t care. And you should care.

All I know is I see mothers, fathers, and children in and out of the various businesses in that lot, I’ve never heard a peep of any complaint from anyone, and there’s never been any protests or anything along those lines I’m aware of.

And, sorry, I’m fine with it. I don’t patronize it because my wife and I prefer a different one a few miles away.

Secondly, all those things do cause harm. Look at the condition of the family unit. The family used to be the strength of our society. It’s no wonder we’re such a mess now. Our families are coming unglued.

Codswallop. The stability of the family back in the day was an illusion, based on the fact that women were practically owned and had few options. Divorce was a scandal, while an affair that everybody knew about, but nobody talked about, was not, and was common.

Picture your father emerging, all smiles, from a strip club at two in the morning. Don’t you think it is harmful for a young man or boy to have that image of his father?

What’s the young man in question doing in the parking lot of a strip club at 2AM? Unlikely scenario in the real world.

You want a good way to ruin a marriage? Add porn and strip clubs. Not good for marriage.

I’ll grant you it’s not good for some marriages. It’s neutral in others, and a good thing in still others. I fall into the latter category, as we are routine porn and strip club clientèle, and not only does it do no harm, we both consider that it adds value.

People are different, and what some like others do not. Viva la difference.

 

[edwest2]

Ed. Yes, there are many societal causes for the weakening of marriage in modern life. You’ve cited some of them.

Allowing homosexual marriage might further weaken marriage, but the straight people, through many causes, started the downward spiral.

As Catholics, we cannot afford to be vague. Simply writing “many causes” does not identify problems that need fixing.

I remember the Hippies coming into my neighborhood in the late 1960s. “Off the pigs!” (Kill the police.) “Down with the Establishment!” That meant rejecting all established authority. This included mom, dad, priests, nuns and others. At that time, American society and American media was generally very respectful toward Christianity and the Catholic Church in particular. Instead, the Hippies promised a Woodstock Nation which never materialized.

As I watched, outsiders who were against everything I believed brought in Adult Bookstores with straight and gay porn, swinger magazines filled with ads from people looking for casual sex, and topless go-go bars so that men, the main target, would be tempted to watch other men’s daughters performing indecently.

Oh no. The straight people were shocked by all this. We protested but the owners of these various businesses had the money and high-priced lawyers to fight what they called censorship. If a few judges had not made explicit pornography and topless bars legal, people might have spent more time on wortwhile pursuits in life. And the National Organization for Women? What problems did they solve? The radical feminists’ only purpose was to drive a wedge of fear and mistrust between men and women. “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem

Catholics need to realize how all of this came about. In the 1990s, the so-called American Civil Liberties Union woke up one day and screamed, “There’s a Nativity in front of the local City Hall!! Oh my Darwin!! It’s unconstitutional !!!” When citizens and public officials complained, the ACLU dictated new terms of engagement: “OK. We’ll let you keep your creche. But, and this is important, we want you to surround it with plastic candy canes and reindeer and a plastic Santa, because if you don’t, we’re taking you to court!” And what was the purpose of all that? To render the birth of Jesus Christ meaningless, or just as meaningful as a plastic Santa.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Seeker2010]

This included mom, dad, priests, nuns and others.

Outside of the walls of the church, priests and nuns are NOT authorities. Oh, I get that you want a Catholic Theocracy, but I’ll fight to the death to prevent that.

As I watched, outsiders who were against everything I believed brought in Adult Bookstores with straight and gay porn, swinger magazines filled with ads from people looking for casual sex, and topless go-go bars so that men, the main target, would be tempted to watch other men’s daughters performing indecently.

What you consider ‘indecent’ other people, including the performers you mentioned, consider fun. You are not so important as to have your beliefs override theirs. They are free to behave as they wish, including performing ‘indecently’, until their actions violate your rights or harm you.

Have you been harmed by a stripper or a pornstar recently?

No, I didn’t think so.

We protested but the owners of these various businesses had the money and high-priced lawyers to fight what they called censorship.

It’s not ‘so-called’ censorship. It IS censorship, straight up. And our free nation does not allow governmental censorship. If you do not wish to patronize these businesses, then do not. But you don’t get to tell me, or anyone else, that we cannot.

Sorry. My right to live as I please overrides your right to tell me how to, for you do not have that right.

If a few judges had not made explicit pornography and topless bars legal, people might have spent more time on wortwhile pursuits in life.

A ‘few judges’ did not make pornography and topless bars legal, the founders did it when they declared that we were to have unfettered freedom of press and expression. And that is absolutely how it should be, as no human is inherently superior to another, and no human has the right to tell another how to live.

And the National Organization for Women?

Ah, so women should shut their mouths and know their role? Barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen with you!

“A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” Gloria Steinem

Ironic that you would quote her in a demeaning way, as you and she have similar viewpoints on sex.

It’s unconstitutional !!!"

But here’s the thing, Ed. It IS unconstitutional. Government, at any level, giving preference to any religion by displaying their holiday symbols is crossing a line. We are NOT a ‘Christian Nation’. We may have a majority of our citizens describe themselves as Christian, but our government, by design, is agnostic. It doesn’t take sides, and when it does, it’s rightly smacked down by the courts.

 

[RosaryFan]

All I know is I see mothers, fathers, and children in and out of the various businesses in that lot, I’ve never heard a peep of any complaint from anyone, and there’s never been any protests or anything along those lines I’m aware of.

And, sorry, I’m fine with it. I don’t patronize it because my wife and I prefer a different one a few miles away.

Codswallop. The stability of the family back in the day was an illusion, based on the fact that women were practically owned and had few options. Divorce was a scandal, while an affair that everybody knew about, but nobody talked about, was not, and was common.

What’s the young man in question doing in the parking lot of a strip club at 2AM? Unlikely scenario in the real world.

I’ll grant you it’s not good for some marriages. It’s neutral in others, and a good thing in still others. I fall into the latter category, as we are routine porn and strip club clientèle, and not only does it do no harm, we both consider that it adds value.

People are different, and what some like others do not. Viva la difference.

Well, obviously, we have a difference of opinion here, and I’m sure I’m not going to convince you that decent people don’t indulge in pornogrpahy. I do have two questions for you, though. What do your children think about you and your wife frequenting strip clubs and porn shops? Also, do you admit this activity to your friends and neighbors? Just curious.