A Problem I have noticed with Byzantine Catholicism in the West

  • Thread starter Thread starter coptsoldier
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
SyroMalankara said:
What does Hippolytus of ROME say: newadvent.org/fathers/0520.htm
2. Thus far, then, on the subject of Hades, in which the souls of all are detained until the time which God has determined; and then He will accomplish a resurrection of all, not by transferring souls into other bodies, but by raising the bodies themselves
Click to expand...
That authorship of that quote as being from Hippolytus is disputed.

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say?:

**1023 **Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God for ever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ’s holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . . or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death, . . .) **already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment **- and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.
 
So Byzantines say souls are being purified in the fire of God’s infinite love, if they are willing to accept it. Prayers are efficacious in this state. Tollhouses are theological speculation or analogy, among some EO not to necessarily to be taken literally. What’s the problem again?
 
Kosta said:
Yeah, and how’s that working out for you? By the looks of this discussion, not too well.
Click to expand...
I’m not too sure what you’re referring to. But personally (and I do mean personally, i.e. I’m aware that not everyone shares my p.o.v.) I would pay more attention to the Catholic-Orthodox official dialogues – especially the document “Uniatism, Method of Union of the Past, and the Present Search for Full Communion” – than to coptsoldier’s words or those of any ex-Orthodox.
 
griego_catolico said:
BISHOP JOHN ELYA’S ANSWER
…
Click to expand...
At the risk of stating the obvious, Bishop John Elya’s writing have been trotted out on this forum more times than (write your own punchline).

That’s not to say, however, that he does not make any good points. 🙂
 
coptsoldier said:
Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:
  1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory
  2. Stations of the cross in the Building
  3. Congregation kneeling during consecration
  4. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense
  5. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical
  6. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology
This truly bothers me. I am very happy to be in communion with the Roman Church, But I was under the impression that Rome wanted us to return to authentic Orthodox THeology and Patrimony. I am a Big supporter or the Zhogby Initiative Statement of Faith.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.
Click to expand...
Why did you leave the Orthodox Church for the Byzantine Catholic Church if you do not find this Church to your liking? What did you missed in the Orthodox Church that made you decide to enter the Byzantine Catholic Church?
 
Thank you and I apologize for not using an improper phrase … (Latin doctrine)

Great follow up
griego_catolico said:
There is no such thing as “Latin doctrines” as if it applies to only Roman Catholics. Truth is truth and it applies to everyone. Yes, there may be different ways of explaining the truth but it cannot be contradictory.

For example, Catholic teaching is that at the moment of death, the soul experiences “particular judgment” and then, based on that judgment, goes to heaven (via purgatory, if necessary) where it experiences the Beatific Vision or goes to hell. Those in purgatory are helped by the prayers of the living. No soul in purgatory goes to hell; all souls in purgatory eventually go to heaven. After purification, the soul goes to heaven and experiences the Beatific Vision. All souls in heaven experience the Beatific Vision even before the Final Judgment.

The teaching found among Eastern Orthodoxy is that the soul does not go directly to heaven or hell after death, but goes to “hades” where it experiences a foretaste of salvation or condemnation. These souls are helped by the prayers of living, Souls in “hades” who have a foretaste of hell can still be saved through the prayers of the living. There is also the controversial teaching of “toll-houses” which is not accepted by all of Orthodoxy. It implies that a soul on its way to heaven can still be dragged to hell by the demons. It is only until the Final Judgment that the souls in “hades” go to heaven or hell.

All Catholics, of whatever liturgical tradition, are bound to believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Although purgatory and “hades” may have some similarities, they are in fact different. It is against Catholic teaching for any Catholic of whatever liturgical tradition to believe that a soul is “detained” from going to heaven or hell before the Final Judgment.
Click to expand...
 
docnerves said:
Thank you for he reference, I do appreciate it.

With regard to the issue and as a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, I stand by the Treaty of Brest… we trust in God’s Mercy
Click to expand...
Indeed and the UNION OF BREST (1595) declared :
5.—We shall not debate about purgatory, but** we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.**
Click to expand...
The Church teaches purgatory but on the official level we know a lot of western speculation is left out in the official teaching.

At the Council of Trent it was decreed :
SESSION 25, DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.
Click to expand...
Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and everywhere proclaimed by the faithful of Christ.…
Click to expand...
This must be held by all Catholics eastern, western, northern and southern , even aliens! 😃
 
coptsoldier said:
Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:
  1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory
  2. Stations of the cross in the Building
  3. Congregation kneeling during consecration
  4. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense
  5. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical
  6. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology
This truly bothers me. I am very happy to be in communion with the Roman Church, But I was under the impression that Rome wanted us to return to authentic Orthodox THeology and Patrimony. I am a Big supporter or the Zhogby Initiative Statement of Faith.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.
Click to expand...
One of the major causes of these “problems” is that there aren’t Eastern Rite Catholic schools. Many Eastern Catholic families have their children attend Latin Rite Catholic schools. Most of these schools offer tuition reduction for families who are active in the connected Latin Rite parish, so many Eastern Rite families are active in Latin Rite parishes. Practically, these “Latinizations” are bound to happen.
 
Kosta said:
Yeah, and how’s that working out for you? By the looks of this discussion, not too well.
Click to expand...
It will be a life long struggle. But i believe it is morally wrong to not be in communion with rome. So I will strive towards the fullness of the faith.
 
Peter_J said:
Good point. The statement can be interpreted as “agreeing to disagree”, but it can be interpreted otherwise as well.
Click to expand...
The phrase “agree to disagree” means all parties tolerate but do not accept the opposing position(s). To say entrust is not “agree to disagree” rather make them responsible for looking after it or dealing with it – no contest.
 
Vico said:
The phrase “agree to disagree” means all parties tolerate but do not accept the opposing position(s). To say entrust is not “agree to disagree” rather make them responsible for looking after it or dealing with it – no contest.
Click to expand...
That’s another interpretation. I think both interpretations are possible, given the wording.
 
Peter_J said:
That’s another interpretation. I think both interpretations are possible, given the wording.
Click to expand...
Please elaborate, because I do not believe that is true.

Note that the document was in three languages: Ukrainian, Polish, and Latin.
 
SyroMalankara said:
So Byzantines say souls are being purified in the fire of God’s infinite love, if they are willing to accept it. Prayers are efficacious in this state. Tollhouses are theological speculation or analogy, among some EO not to necessarily to be taken literally. What’s the problem again?
Click to expand...
As I mentioned in a previous post, it is against Catholic teaching for any Catholic of whatever liturgical tradition to believe that a soul cannot go to heaven or hell before the Final Judgment.
 
griego_catolico said:
As I mentioned in a previous post, it is against Catholic teaching for any Catholic of whatever liturgical tradition to believe that a soul cannot go to heaven or hell before the Final Judgment.
Click to expand...
Yes !. We may not rehash and old controversy that surrounded Pope John XXII and his heretical opinion. He taught that no man will experience the beatific vision until the final judgement. The Church decreed otherwise in the papal bull of his successor. The case is closed and as you said,it is against Catholic teaching for any Catholic of whatever liturgical tradition to believe that a soul cannot go to heaven or hell before the Final Judgment
 
Wandile said:
Yes !. We may not rehash and old controversy that surrounded Pope John XXII and his heretical opinion. He taught that no man will experience the beatific vision until the final judgement. The Church decreed otherwise in the papal bull of his successor. The case is closed and as you said,it is against Catholic teaching for any Catholic of whatever liturgical tradition to believe that a soul cannot go to heaven or hell before the Final Judgment
Click to expand...
Reference: *Benedictus Deus
papalencyclicals.net/Ben12/B12bdeus.html
 
coptsoldier said:
Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.
Click to expand...
Greek Catholics in predominately Latin Rite countries are exposed a lot to the Latin Rite, through their relatives, in their communities, they often attend Latin Rite schools, etc. Often times, their jobs, college educations, etc., takes them far away from any Greek Catholic parish for extended periods.

As a result they sometimes adopt some of the spirituality of the Latin Rite.

If a Melkite came to Pittsburgh, there are no Melkite parishes here, for example. When they move again, perhaps to a community that has an organized Melkite presence, I’m sure they’d bring something with them and share it with others in the community. That’s how things change.
 
Kielbasi said:
If a Melkite came to Pittsburgh, there are no Melkite parishes here, for example.
Click to expand...
And, on the other hand, it is pretty rare for a Latin Catholic to say to themselves “Oh, I see that I’m living in a town that happens to have a GC (or OC) parish. Maybe I’ll check them out and see if it appeals to me.” By which I don’t mean to blame anyone, but it just means that GC and OC parishes tend to have more losses than gains.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top