A problem refuting a statement about the Eucharist

[DaMooksta]

Ok so it goes like this…While at work one of my co-workers brought up religion and as we sat there talking he started hinting some anti-catholic feelings that he had…so I basically asked him what his problem was w/ the church…he didn’t make really ne good points it was basically common misconceptions like “why do you people praise Mary and hold her to a God like status”…well I easily shot those down thanx to scott hahns help

but then he asked me why I like the catholic church so much so I brought up the Eucharist… but before we get there let me explain why this statement of his had me stuck…I DO believe satan manipulates God in every single way possible…so when I had brought up eucharistic miracles he came back with “thats the devils work to confuse christians like you”…Now it didn’t change me belief in the miracles in any way BUT how can I prove that it CANNOT be of Satan…?? nebody??

 

[1edyson]

1. Satan can’t manipulate God, he can tempt us, but can’t touch God or his Sacraments.
2. John 6
3. The Last Supper Discourse
   All defending the Eucharist.

Also with the Eucharistic Miracles the church goes to great lengths to debunk them before something is declared as a miracle, using all means available to her, including science. So if the church declares something to be a miracle, officially a miracle I have faith in it, Matt 16:18. Hope that helps. Maybe you could ask him to clarify more of why he thinks its the devil’s work?

 

[tjm190]

Tell him you think he’s being used by Satan to manipulate you. If he asks for proof, do the same to him.

 

[DaMooksta]

1. Satan can’t manipulate God, he can tempt us, but can’t touch God or his Sacraments.
2. John 6
3. The Last Supper Discourse
   All defending the Eucharist.

Also with the Eucharistic Miracles the church goes to great lengths to debunk them before something is declared as a miracle, using all means available to her, including science. So if the church declares something to be a miracle, officially a miracle I have faith in it, Matt 16:18. Hope that helps. Maybe you could ask him to clarify more of why he thinks its the devil’s work?

im sorry I didnt mean manipulate i meant to say mimic…i’ll edit that tho…but what i got from this guy was sort of how satan can use stigmata and apparitions in order to convince people …in order 2 manipulate them…

Tell him you think he’s being used by Satan to manipulate you. If he asks for proof, do the same to him.

lolol

i never get tired of hearing comments like these…

it didnt let me edit but just so everyone knows I meant MIMIC!!! not manipulate!!

 

[VociMike]

You can’t “prove it cannot be of Satan”. Just as you can’t prove that his comments are not of Satan. All you can do is point out that the Real Presence was believed by the entire Christian world (Catholic and Orthodox) up until the Protestant Reformation (can he prove that was not of Satan?).

He will of course declare that the Real Presence was a heresy that somehow, sometime, attached itself onto the entire Christian Church without the slightest bit of resistance or historical corroboration. At that point you simply insist that he prove his assertion using historical evidence.

 

[Victorious]

Tell him to read John chapter 6. The Jews whom Jesus addressed obviously understood Him to be talking literally, and He did nothing to correct their interpretation; indeed, He insisted upon it.

Then, John 6:66 (is that sequence of numbers a mere coincidence?): “After this, many of His disciples drew back and no longer went about with Him.” Are these the people your friend wants to imitate?

 

[Irish_Becca]

OK - here’s important text from John 6. I’m boldening some important parts.

Jesus said to them, **“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. **Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

**On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” **Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jesus said many things figuratively and allegorically. This, however, is meant to be taken literally. We can tell this because so many of his disciples could not accept the teaching and turned away from Him. If it were figurative, something to be taken lightly, people would not have left this way.

Later, of course, during the Last Supper, Jesus breaks bread - it becomes His flesh, and the wine becomes His blood. He tells His disciples to do this in His memory.

Show this to your friend and ask him to explain why those people would leave if Jesus hadn’t literally intended for us to have the Eucharist?

Hope this helps.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Of course the obvious answer is to ask him to defend his position.

What is his criteria for identifying Satanic influence? What’s to stop him from seeing Satanic influence on a McDonald’s billboard? You can certainly cite a plethora of people who have converted to Christianity on the spot, for instance at Fatima. Would he consider an apparition that consistently draws people closer to Christ the work of the Evil One? Would the devotion to Christ spawned from the miracle at Lanciano be the work of evil? If he denies that the people are genuine Christians, then he’s a mind reader (perhaps a soothsayer of the occult, hahaha). And if he says Satan brings people to Christ, then he’s a waste of conversation and needs to see the light of Christ in your life apart from your arguments. In other words, preach to him without words.

 

[tjm190]

Anyway, I guess you should tell him that Cartesian skepticism is silly to apply to real life.
“I will suppose some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgement.” René Descartes

 

[DaMooksta]

1. Satan can’t manipulate God, he can tempt us, but can’t touch God or his Sacraments.
2. John 6
3. The Last Supper Discourse
   All defending the Eucharist.

Also with the Eucharistic Miracles the church goes to great lengths to debunk them before something is declared as a miracle, using all means available to her, including science. So if the church declares something to be a miracle, officially a miracle I have faith in it, Matt 16:18. Hope that helps. Maybe you could ask him to clarify more of why he thinks its the devil’s work?

You can’t “prove it cannot be of Satan”. Just as you can’t prove that his comments are not of Satan. All you can do is point out that the Real Presence was believed by the entire Christian world (Catholic and Orthodox) up until the Protestant Reformation (can he prove that was not of Satan?).

He will of course declare that the Real Presence was a heresy that somehow, sometime, attached itself onto the entire Christian Church without the slightest bit of resistance or historical corroboration. At that point you simply insist that he prove his assertion using historical evidence.

Tell him to read John chapter 6. The Jews whom Jesus addressed obviously understood Him to be talking literally, and He did nothing to correct their interpretation; indeed, He insisted upon it.

Then, John 6:66 (is that sequence of numbers a mere coincidence?): “After this, many of His disciples drew back and no longer went about with Him.” Are these the people your friend wants to imitate?

OK - here’s important text from John 6. I’m boldening some important parts.

Jesus said many things figuratively and allegorically. This, however, is meant to be taken literally. We can tell this because so many of his disciples could not accept the teaching and turned away from Him. If it were figurative, something to be taken lightly, people would not have left this way.

Later, of course, during the Last Supper, Jesus breaks bread - it becomes His flesh, and the wine becomes His blood. He tells His disciples to do this in His memory.

Show this to your friend and ask him to explain why those people would leave if Jesus hadn’t literally intended for us to have the Eucharist?

Hope this helps.

Of course the obvious answer is to ask him to defend his position.

What is his criteria for identifying Satanic influence? What’s to stop him from seeing Satanic influence on a McDonald’s billboard? You can certainly cite a plethora of people who have converted to Christianity on the spot, for instance at Fatima. Would he consider an apparition that consistently draws people closer to Christ the work of the Evil One? Would the devotion to Christ spawned from the miracle at Lanciano be the work of evil? If he denies that the people are genuine Christians, then he’s a mind reader (perhaps a soothsayer of the occult, hahaha). And if he says Satan brings people to Christ, then he’s a waste of conversation and needs to see the light of Christ in your life apart from your arguments. In other words, preach to him without words.

Anyway, I guess you should tell him that Cartesian skepticism is silly to apply to real life.
“I will suppose some malicious demon of the utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me. I shall think that the sky, the air, the earth, colours, shapes, sounds and all external things are merely the delusions of dreams which he has devised to ensnare my judgement.” René Descartes

Great Job!..you guys all answered my question in ur own different ways…some with a little extra ammo!..I’m gonna be back w/ more questions tho some of my own since ya did such an excellent job… lol so be prepared!

 

[DavidFilmer]

he came back with “thats the devils work to confuse christians like you”…

And, the trouble is, he could be correct.

Private revelation (including Eucharistic miracles) is weak ammo. You would never see the Church refer to such an event in an encyclical. Apologists are normally well-advised to avoid them as well.

Stick to the three-legged stool of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. With protestants, Scripture is often most effective inroad, and, as others have pointed out, there is PLENTY of scriptural evidence for the Catholic position.

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

Ok so it goes like this…While at work one of my co-workers brought up religion and as we sat there talking he started hinting some anti-catholic feelings that he had…so I basically asked him what his problem was w/ the church…he didn’t make really ne good points it was basically common misconceptions like “why do you people praise Mary and hold her to a God like status”…well I easily shot those down thanx to scott hahns help

but then he asked me why I like the catholic church so much so I brought up the Eucharist… but before we get there let me explain why this statement of his had me stuck…I DO believe satan manipulates God in every single way possible…so when I had brought up eucharistic miracles he came back with “thats the devils work to confuse christians like you”…Now it didn’t change me belief in the miracles in any way BUT how can I prove that it CANNOT be of Satan…?? nebody??

The enemy can pretend to be God, but it cannot manipulate him. Did this guy misspeak or is he simply nuts?

 

[DaMooksta]

The enemy can pretend to be God, but it cannot manipulate him. Did this guy misspeak or is he simply nuts?

ok i’ll answer your question as soon as u answer mine…

Q: do you read a whole thread before asking such a question or do you just want to see you post count go up??

 

[DaMooksta]

And, the trouble is, he could be correct.

Private revelation (including Eucharistic miracles) is weak ammo. You would never see the Church refer to such an event in an encyclical. Apologists are normally well-advised to avoid them as well.

Stick to the three-legged stool of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. With protestants, Scripture is often most effective inroad, and, as others have pointed out, there is PLENTY of scriptural evidence for the Catholic position.

yea I believe you have a very good point but I find an exception w/ the miracle of fatima…
but you did say private so good job

 

[catholic1seeks]

Type in “Eucharist” in the Catholic Answers’ “Quick Search” box. You’ll find loads of helpful articles.

Here’s one:

Christ in the Eucharist
catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

 

[Tetiaroa]

so when I had brought up eucharistic miracles he came back with “thats the devils work to confuse christians like you”…Now it didn’t change me belief in the miracles in any way BUT how can I prove that it CANNOT be of Satan…?? nebody??

People did not believe Jesus. People did not believe the Apostles. People did not believe the Bible. Now, if Satan testify, would people believe?

You can check the link below. In this one, it was Satan who testify the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

olrl.org/stories/exorcism.shtml