A Problem with a Lot of Pantheisms

[Dimmesdale]

I speak of “pantheisms” in the plural, because I realize not all suffer from what I take to be this fault, but a lot of versions nonetheless do.

The problem is this: figuring out how “the One” or “perfect existence” - “impersonal homogeneity” - you may use a variety of descriptions for this “ineffable reality”- how could this State have, not only diversified and brought upon itself evil, BUT - the following… I would extend the problem even further and add that the GOODNESS of Creation itself stands juxtaposed to the “Miscreation” of the World that many pantheists adhere to (I have in mind gnostic systems of thought as well as the more modern “A Course in Miracles.”) I wish to treat of the positive here, since I don’t feel like rehashing the old argument of how possibly could the One have become many, anticipating the counterpoint that the world is an illusion to be “dissolved” not “resolved” intellectually which is not intellectually satisfying even if “compelling” on some intuitive level…

To put it briefly: the World contains in it such Goodness, such Beauty, such Manifest Splendor and Being that it is foolish to say that it is the outcome of a Miscreation, of God “hiding himself” in an inept way. IF God is hiding Himself, then He is not inept. He is Dartingly Intelligent in a Fulsome and Generous way, even in his “illusions.” This supposes, at the very least, a Mind of Immense Power and Genius. That there existed an Impersonal Absolute that blew itself up into many pieces, those pieces then coalescing in myriad Mayic forms, stretches the imagination regarding how those pieces could have arranged themselves in the glorious manner that they did. We would expect the Miscreation to be of a dumpy and low-grade quality, something of a very cheap nature, catering to the least common denominator of living entity and not emblazoned with the Mark of True Divinity. This, perhaps at the same level of the problem of evil, stands athwart the Pantheist of this particular stripe and, I think, truly does invalidate his position.

The only possible alternative to a Mind would be, perhaps, some Incalculably Complex Providence which acted on its own. Which acted upon the Supreme Absolute and brought it into conformity with it’s dictates. So there was this type of Machine as it were, co-eternal with the Supreme Absolute. But why think this? Isn’t it more natural to assume an actual Mind re-cognizing manifest reality? This would also pit the Supreme Absolute as Subordinate to this Providence and would make a mockery of it’s all-powerful nature. Grace would then have to come from Providence and not from the Supreme Absolute, even though it is the Supreme Absolute - “Awareness” so to speak - that is regarded as Supreme in nearly all Traditions. This is a problem as well.

So I think we need to think in Radically more Personal Terms. That is my conclusion.

 

[Vico]

…
The problem is this: figuring out how “the One” or “perfect existence” … diversified and brought upon itself evil, …

Only the Creator is absolutely perfect. By permitting free will in creatures, any evil is due only to the will of those creatures.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

302 Creation has its own goodness and proper perfection, but it did not spring forth complete from the hands of the Creator. The universe was created “in a state of journeying” ( in statu viae ) toward an ultimate perfection yet to be attained, to which God has destined it. We call “divine providence” the dispositions by which God guides his creation toward this perfection:

By his providence God protects and governs all things which he has made, “reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures.

 

[Noose001]

@Dimmesdale I don’t know much about the Pantheism variants but i being a Biocentric Panenthesit, i do believe the bible teaches Panentheism + Pantheism + Biocentrism at different levels.

To summarize, God creates through the human mind or rather, God created the perfect and placed it in the human mind but the humans through misunderstanding, blew it. The human desires corrupted the truth that God placed in their minds and thus brought about the imperfect/death/separation from God.

The separation of God and the created (universe) is not straightforward; rather, the universe came from within the human heart to the outward parts and was then perceived as physical by human observation but the perfect still remained in the human heart (mind) but man could not access it (understand).

Christ comes to reconcile everything and He says “do not go by sight…”

 

[metavehicle]

My ethnic background is pantheistic according to some (Hinduism)

I have a bit of understanding of that outlook, i can’t say i “figured it out” though.

Anyhow a Christian friend texted me 2 Cor 10:4; if i post it with the neighbouring verses i’ll explain its relevance to me.

1. For though we live in the world, we are not carrying on a worldly war,
2. for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds.
3. We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ

Those obstacles to the knowledge of God i take as any conception of God that removes his Triune Creatorship over the universe, That God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - God of the Living.

Any other substitute is an irreconcilable one because it is not this God in particular.

As such our arguments in opposition are then “divine weapons” to demolish fallacies.

 

[cheeseBR]

I confess to being confused by the original post. Polytheism, as a concept, has many different approaches in the neo-pagan community (and I speak only of my experiences as a druid in America - I cannot speak to the experiences and understanding of other world religions).

The approaches run through a spectrum of “soft polytheism” to “hard polytheism”. Soft polytheism is generally thought of as “there is one Divine source that manifests Its aspects/personalities through the various Gods”.

Hard polytheism is generally “There are distinct and separate gods, each being an independent intelligence”.

I’m a skeptical polytheist. In my experience, there are no gods, but when I call upon the gods, I’m using it as an archetype of something in myself I need. When I call upon Hecate, I need guidance to and through my own darkness. If I need foresight, I might call upon Odin. At the summer solstice, I reverence the Green Man.

 

[Noose001]

I confess to being confused by the original post. Polytheism, as a concept, has many different approaches in the neo-pagan community (and I speak only of my experiences as a druid in America - I cannot speak to the experiences and understanding of other world religions).

The approaches run through a spectrum of “soft polytheism” to “hard polytheism”. Soft polytheism is generally thought of as “there is one Divine source that manifests Its aspects/personalities through the various Gods”.

Hard polytheism is generally “There are distinct and separate gods, each being an independent intelligence”.

I’m a skeptical polytheist. In my experience, there are no gods, but when I call upon the gods, I’m using it as an archetype of something in myself I need. When I call upon Hecate, I need guidance to and through my own darkness. If I need foresight, I might call upon Odin. At the summer solstice, I reverence the Green Man.

Pantheism, specifically is the idea which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

 

[cheeseBR]

Ah. I understood the original post to be about “pantheons”.

My girlfriend is a pantheist. Her view is that “We are the universe looking at Itself with wonder”.

 

[Noose001]

I find some truth in that but i’m a Panentheist myself; a slight variation from Pantheism. My beliefs are actually part Pantheism and part Panentheism and all these from the bible.

 

[annem]

For pantheists: please explain the existence of evil.

 

[Noose001]

For pantheists: please explain the existence of evil.

Not a problem at all. God does not become the universe directly but becomes the universe in the heart (mind) of a man. Man brought evil by his own desires outside the understanding that God installed in him and thus evil and death found a foothold.

 

[annem]

Sorry, this is not only not an explanation, it is gibberish.

The pantheistic entity/God has a mind? What, in the rocks and gas and blah blah in the beginning became a mind, and how? Please explain.

And now suddenly, after creating lizards and ants and monkeys God makes man (funny how this so closely resembles Christianity - oh, okay, let us just admit the blindingly obvious, it’s copied directrly from Christianity) and all of the sudden, man creates evil??? What a powerful entity man is.

Please explain why this is copied from Christinaity.

Please explain why dark desires didn’t take hold in say, giraffes.

I believe you need to start over with your logic.

 

[Dimmesdale]

For pantheists: please explain the existence of evil.

One could argue that evil is a human judgement - a value call made by man, not God.

I don’t believe in this type of pantheism - but a crude pantheism might say God is both good and bad, that you can’t ascribe any sort of duality or separation between what is “light” and what is “dark.”

While human beings in their limited perspectives might ascribe evil to bad qualities and good to positive qualities, God may be above such value judgments.

 

[Dimmesdale]

Not a problem at all. God does not become the universe directly but becomes the universe in the heart (mind) of a man. Man brought evil by his own desires outside the understanding that God installed in him and thus evil and death found a foothold.

This reminds me of the idea of the demiurge, that in a sense we pre-existed the universe and created it as a lesser creator. That God gave permission for the creation but did not create the world of matter directly. Hindu beliefs have something similar in mind with the post of Brahma. Originally we were all Brahmas with our own universes, but then descended down the ladder of sentient beings.

 

[annem]

One could argue that evil is a human judgement - a value call made by man, not God.

Let me see - why yes, it’s nothing but my silly human judgement that causes me to think there was anything evil about the Communists slaughtering one hundred million human beings, shooting them, starving them to death, torturing them, burying the odd one alive (the burying alive happened most frequently to bishops, such being a practice of the ever evil Communists).

Why yes, of course, I see it now…there is no evil! It was PERFECTLY ALL RIGHT for the Communists to commit mass murder. Wonderful even.

Um…this is really your argument?

Then there is your argument that God is “above” such judgements. Your God is above such petty morality - why? He has no feelings? Judges nothing? Then what excuse does he have for reincarnation? . Please explain.

 

[Dimmesdale]

Let me see - why yes, it’s nothing but my silly human judgement that causes me to think there was anything evil about the Communists slaughtering one hundred million human beings, shooting them, starving them to death, torturing them, burying the odd one alive (the burying alive happened most frequently to bishops, such being a practice of the ever evil Communists).

Why yes, of course, I see it now…there is no evil! It was PERFECTLY ALL RIGHT for the Communists to commit mass murder. Wonderful even.

Um…this is really your argument?

Then there is your argument that God is “above” such judgements. Your God is above such petty morality - why? He has no feelings? Judges nothing? Then what excuse does he have for reincarnation? . Please explain.

It is A argument, not my argument. Right now I actually do believe in a personal God who takes action against evil, but I digress.

If one goes along with this line of thought, one need not go to the extreme of saying that “negative” things should be embraced without discrimination. God may be absolutely forgiving, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take practical steps to minimize and overcome perceived evils… We should take arms against ills in a pragmatic sort of way, but not reifying the categories of good and evil in any absolute way.

 

[Noose001]

Sorry, this is not only not an explanation, it is gibberish.

The pantheistic entity/God has a mind? What, in the rocks and gas and blah blah in the beginning became a mind, and how? Please explain.

And now suddenly, after creating lizards and ants and monkeys God makes man (funny how this so closely resembles Christianity - oh, okay, let us just admit the blindingly obvious, it’s copied directrly from Christianity) and all of the sudden, man creates evil??? What a powerful entity man is.

Please explain why this is copied from Christinaity.

Please explain why dark desires didn’t take hold in say, giraffes.

I believe you need to start over with your logic.

Read Genesis if you can. There’s a reason man is given dominion over all creatures (creation) and not Giraffes- coz he is the image of God. What this means is that the whole universe/reality exists in a man’s consciousness and when man defaults, the whole universe succumbs and decays as well as death to all living things but salvation of man also brings the universe from its decay.

Rom 8: [ 18 ]I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that h the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

 

[Noose001]

This reminds me of the idea of the demiurge, that in a sense we pre-existed the universe and created it as a lesser creator. That God gave permission for the creation but did not create the world of matter directly. Hindu beliefs have something similar in mind with the post of Brahma. Originally we were all Brahmas with our own universes, but then descended down the ladder of sentient beings.

That idea is not bad. The spirit/breathe that God put in man (Genesis 1/2) was and is part of God that existed with God before anything and it is that spirit that contains the universe in a spiritual form.

Ecc 3: 9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden that God has laid on men to occupy them. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.