A problem with these forums

[Kevan]

Katholikos:

To follow Swedenborg (or Wesley or Calvin or whomever)…

Be fair.:tsktsk:

Swedenborg purported to have revelations from God. No Calvinist thinks that a single sentence of Calvin is God’s word.

A Wesleyan no more “follows” Wesley than a Benedictine follows Benedict.

 

[Peace-bwu]

I includedt only a portion of the reply from Jay here!

Protestants have a lot in common. All Protestant churches were founded by men – we know the names of the men and the dates they started their organization from the historical record. They understand that each of them arrived at their beliefs because of their personal interpretation of the Bible (or their pastor’s interpretation). They dialog (or argue) as equals. That’s not the case when one dialogs with an Catholic who knows his Faith. You’re bound to be offended when a Catholic tells you that he’s right, because that means you’re wrong. But if he is presenting what the Church teaches, it very well may be true.

. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament. So we don’t dialog on religious questions as equals. That doesn’t make me personally superior to Protestants – but it certainly puts my beliefs on a higher level, since they come from the Holy Apostles themselves.

I find it very irritating when Protestants try to tell me what I believe, and they haven’t a clue. So this complaining cuts both ways, my friend.

Most Protestants whose posts I have read are not here to ask questions and learn what the Catholic Church teaches. My experience has been that they are here to tell us that we’re wrong and to try to convince us that we should leave the Church.

I’ll step down from my soap box now.

Peace to all who post at Catholic Answers. JMJ Jay

 Jay,

I love your post, I highlighted a few points here so ppl would know what I’lm referring to… I had similar thoughts while reading this thread! It isn’t that *we *feel superior it is that the theology and Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church is superior. Our Faith is a gift, not to be boasted, but the Word of God is to be proclaimed! That is the attitude of most members, I think… and sometimes there is even a place for riteous anger… especially when defending Christ’s Church!

Thanks,

 

[Britta]

Peace-bwu:

Our Faith is a gift, not to be boasted, but the Word of God is to be proclaimed! That is the attitude of most members, I think… and sometimes there is even a place for riteous anger… especially when defending Christ’s Church!

Thanks,

I too loved the post. The fact is that Catholics have been dealing with setups for a very long time and thankfully we are more aware of the truth in being able to defend it.

There are, however, several, both Catholic and Protestant, who are not debating these issues properly. There is never a reason to get nasty and offensive. But having a heated, but loving, debate about such a treasured position is a great thing. I am thankful for forums like this to be able to understand other sides, as well as explain ours. I have been able to see that we often really understand much of the same things.

 

[whit]

mango_2003:

It has nothing to do with superiority, and that is the root of the problem. My studies have nothing to do with me. I want to study Him and His teachings more. That’s why I’m here. To see why the RCC teaches what it does. I don’t care about you knowing that I believe some teaching of the RCC aren’t correct. That doesn’t matter to me…however, I cannot lie about what I think/feel. I just try to go about it tactfully.

Mango,
Wanted to jump in with my $0.02. Your response above is to a repy by Katholikos. Don’t worry about him. He is like me. We both get exasperated by Protestants who hear and ignore arguments showing the Truths of the Catholic Faith. Katholikos is a convert and is very knowledgeable of the Church’s teachings. If you want to ask for an explanation of something you might ask him. And also please do yourself a favor for when you get on these forums. Get a thicker skin. Don’t take things personally. I, for one, am not good at hand holding someone and from the postings I have seen from Katholikos, neither is he, among others. But that doesn’t mean he dislikes you or anything like that. **I am sure that he will agree with me and pray to Mary for her prayerful intercession with the Lord Jesus Christ that God the Father allows you and everyone who has ever come on these forums either as posters or just to read, in addition to all those at Catholic.com, upon our bodily deaths, go to purgatory. **

I did, however look at your bio and some of your posts and know more of where you are coming from. (I was born and lived in Des Moines, Ia til I was your age and haven’t been back for any period of time since. But Iowa is a good state to be from.)

I see you are a “pseudo protestor” by your determination. That your mother is a non practicing cradle Catholic and that you on occasion attend Mass in order to learn what you can about the faith from that end. And that you are 19 years old. And on another forum that you knew enough to NOT take the Eucharist, that you respected it and that you do not partake in that which you “do not believe.” Good.

Do you want to learn about the faith? For a starter, go to the forum on Bible History and note the info from Katholikos and Malachi4U. K. did some posts on the actual history of the Bible and M gave us a listing of what we know of the dates of the writings of the NT gospels and letters. As a hint, I did a copy/paste of all that info to a blank word processor document and saved it to a file for reference.
This will give you info that probably 99% of Protestants have never seen or thought of. And I am just guessing but I bet that it is a very large part of the reason for K’s conversion as well as others. If you think about it you will figure out why.
Then look at Catholic. com’s guest schedule and see what you might be interested in listening to from their list of radio programs. FYI, they have a number of programs on “Q & A from non-catholics.” You can do a search on that and come up with a list of programs. Listen and learn. Jimmy Akin and Karl Keating primarily give the answers. Great programming. There is also other wonderful programming to look at too. Info of all kinds. Enjoy.

continued…

 

[whit]

continued…
Often what I do is download the programming and listen to it later at my leisure and have the time.

Next, go to EWTN.com and to their audio program archives and on their series search engine look for History there. There are two series to grab. One is Great Moments in Church History by the author of Triumph, Harry Crocker(noted Civil War historian), and “Heart of History” is the second. That one is with an English couple and also very informative.
While you are at EWTN, listen to some Journey Home programs; they are in the same audio archive area. Just put in Journey Home in the same search engine. And you can go to the Journey Home website (google it) and read a number of stories about conversions, one of which is Katholilkos’, under Jay Damien. He mentioned it on another forum and I read it and well, enjoyed it greatly. He also recommends a particular book to pick up among others, “The Faith of Our Fathers” by James Cardinal Gibbons by TAN books. My copy which I already had cost, $ 16.00. It might be in the library. Not a bad price though and a very easy and informative read. And then THE book to have is the (voila) “Catechism of the Catholic Church.”
Well, if you are really interested, this ought to keep you busy for at least a weekend . As an added incentive, I wanted to let you know that I, as a cradle Catholic revert, can’t get enough information about the Church, it’s history, and it’s teachings. I have a hunger for it.
But, now that I have gone through this, I will be highly, but happily surprised if you do any of it. But then all I can do is lead you to water. Can’t make you drink it.
Now, go forth young man and be thick skinned. Leave all your worries to “Our Lady of Perpetual Help” and give thanks to the Father for all He has given you.

God bless.
Oh, and by the way when someone says “peace be with you”, the correct response is “and with your Spirit”, not “and also with you.” The latin response is “et cum Spiritu tuo.” Most Catholic parishes do it wrong. A mess up from Vtcn. II.
And hope to see you in purgatory.
Whit

 

[SpiritualSon]

To the one who call me a jerk on my first post in the Comment page.
THE SAME TO YOU JERK. Next time leave you real name. Don’t hid your words behind comments. Next time post it so that every one may see it. The board should not let members leave comments without leaving the real name of the person.

 

[Genuflecter]

I think I’m just agreeing with the general sentiment here when I say the knife cuts both ways. It’s sad to see the church so divided. I mean full communion would be fabulous, but in the absence of that it would be nice to at least have union. And we do, but not enough. We need unity if we are to effectively fight the culture of death.

I’ve met Protestants that think Catholics are not really Christians - or even that we’re pagans - and I’ve met Catholics that think Protestants can’t say a word without saying something heretical. There’s a treasure trove of good Protestant teaching out there, but I would say one should understand our own Catholic faith before venturing out.

In all honesty, I think the problem of Protestants being critical of Catholics is more prevalent - at least in a predominately Protestant culture - then the other way around. I can’t remember who it was, but one Protestant pastor summed up the problem in saying that Protestants have put too much time and effort into protesting to the detriment of the entire body of Christ. I happen to agree, but the problem certainly isn’t unique to Protestants. I think it just manifests itself differently with Catholics.

 

[Katholikos]

SpiritualSon:

To the one who call me a jerk on my first post in the Comment page.
THE SAME TO YOU JERK. Next time leave you real name. Don’t hid your words behind comments. Next time post it so that every one may see it. The board should not let members leave comments without leaving the real name of the person./QUOTE]

This was left on my profile, under “reputation”:

"Holy false revelations, Batman! kaPOW. Take that, SpiritualSon"

Is SpiritualSon your real name?

(underscore added to quote)

 

[Katholikos]

Kevan:

Be fair.:tsktsk:

Swedenborg purported to have revelations from God. No Calvinist thinks that a single sentence of Calvin is God’s word.

A Wesleyan no more “follows” Wesley than a Benedictine follows Benedict.

No Calvinist thinks that a single sentence of Calvin is God’s word, but they do think that Calvin’s teachings are God’s Truth. And New Church adherents believe that Emmanuel Swedenborg’s revelations are God’s Truth. Lamentably, there are thousands of these conflicting and competing “truths” to chose from in Protestantism. That was my point.

A Wesleyan follows the teachings of Wesley. I can’t speak for the Benedictines, but I’m a Franciscan and I certainly am a follower of St. Francis and his way of life. St. Francis mirrored Christ as the moon mirrors the sun, and he knows the way to heaven. It’s not the only way to live, but it’s a very good way.

Peace be with you and to all who post at Catholic Answers.

JMJ Jay

 

[Kevan]

Your allegation implies that a Calvinist would say “Calvin said it, so I believe it.” Such an allegation is lower than silly, because you know better.

Anyone who says a true thing is stating “God’s Truth,” whether it’s the Pope speaking non-ex-cathedra or Peter Ruckman describing the weather in Pensacola. That’s the only claim a Wesleyan makes for Wesley or a Franciscan for Francisco.

Swedenborgians are a breed apart.

 

[Mary3]

Makerteacher:

It is always possible to disgree agreeably. I grant you that some of the differences in theology between Catholics and Protestants are enormous; and also that they are truly important, vital matters. That does NOT mean we can treat the “other side” with scorn. I too have been subjected to astonishing venom on “Christian” boards when I reveal that I am a devout and happy Catholic: let us not do the same here to our Protestant brothers and sisters, or Wiccans, or Zen Buddhist, or whatever.

As one poster already said, They will know we are Christians be how we love each other, NOT by how many nasty comments we can make or how many apologetical “zingers” we can score.

As a convert to this Faith, I assure you that I was not led to Truth by being insulted, ridiculed, or lectured to: I was led to the Truth by having my questions answered in a respectful way, and by being LOVED.

I second that, and would also add this. As a convert, I was also lead to the faith by the quiet and cheerful example of Catholics who did not flinch when I insulted them with some uneducated and insensitive comment like, “Why don’t you know better than to worship Mary?”. Counting to 10 is still a great insurance policy.

 

[Mike_Rainville]

I was under the impression that most Christians believed in “Sola Scriptura” and would therefore accept such texts as evidence. While I understand and accept that we Catholics have a different view (Tradition, Magisterium and Scripture…) it still seems that most Catholics don’t understand the Scriptural basis of their Faith very well and would benefit from the context as well. ( The forum population is clearly not made up of average Christians of any denomination.)

If I offend people, I am truly sorry. It just seems that the Catholic position ought to be presented concisely and completely, and I really don’t like it when others post isolated verses, because I find that, most of the time, the context will actually solve an issue. I have tried to highlight the key texts, without hiding the context.

If the point of a long text isn’t highlighted or obvious, you can always ask for a clarification.

 

[Mike_Rainville]

Newbies may need to take some time composing and organizing a post. In a busy thread, I have often found that several posts will intervene. Sometimes I feel quite silly looking at prior post, especially one that had me looking like a priest
when I’m not! (Not that I mind being taken for one, it’s that I worry about assumptions people might make …)

I did not figure out the quote button right away.

 

[Cat]

I am probably guilty of Protestant bashing at times, and I ask forgiveness if anyone has been hurt by any of my posts.

I am a recent convert from evangelical Protestantism. I was unjustifiably kicked out of my Protestant church in a cruel and humiliating manner that destroyed my reputation.

It’s been two and a half years, and I’ve forgiven the men (and one woman) who did this to me and my family. But a lot of the pain is still there. I am especially in mourning for my two daughters, who no longer attend any church and say that they can’t trust churches after the way they treated me.

I’m sure all of this grief comes out in some of my posts.

But here is another reason for some of my “Protestant bashing.”

After I was kicked out and had no where else to go to obey the command to “not forsake assembling outselves together,” I went to the Catholic Church and started learning. After two years, I joined RCIA and was received into the Church on April 10, 2004.

I feel that for many years, I was deceived by my evangelical church, and denied the truth. No one ever told me about the Early Church Fathers like Ignatius, Polycarp,etc. I didn’t know they existed. I was taught a fallacious version of church history in which after the Apostles died, the church went into hiding in home churches. In the Fourth Century, the false Catholic church came along and plunged Christianity into paganism and idolatry until Martin Luther rescued it.

Honest, that’s what I was taught.

Thankfully, my parents taught me that Catholics are Christians, too. And the evangelical church of my childhood taught tolerance and love for all people, including Catholics, since some of them were real Christians.

Anyway, you’re probably getting the idea that I still have a chip on my shoulder that no one ever told me about Eucharist, about the truth of the Sacraments, about the Magisterium (I’d never heard the word until I started going to the Catholic Church) and Apostolic Succession, about the Communion of Saints, about faith and WORKS, about all the rest of the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church.

I’ve know other converts who have a lot of the same feelings of being ripped off, of wasting their lives for many years.

We all agree, though, that we need to seek the Lord for gentleness and a spirit of peacemaking, not bitterness or clamor or lashing out against our old churches. Man’s anger will not accomplish God’s work.

 

[condan]

Cat:

I am probably guilty of Protestant bashing at times, and I ask forgiveness if anyone has been hurt by any of my posts.

I am a recent convert from evangelical Protestantism. I was unjustifiably kicked out of my Protestant church in a cruel and humiliating manner that destroyed my reputation.

It’s been two and a half years, and I’ve forgiven the men (and one woman) who did this to me and my family. But a lot of the pain is still there. I am especially in mourning for my two daughters, who no longer attend any church and say that they can’t trust churches after the way they treated me.

I’m sure all of this grief comes out in some of my posts.

But here is another reason for some of my “Protestant bashing.”

After I was kicked out and had no where else to go to obey the command to “not forsake assembling outselves together,” I went to the Catholic Church and started learning. After two years, I joined RCIA and was received into the Church on April 10, 2004.

I feel that for many years, I was deceived by my evangelical church, and denied the truth. No one ever told me about the Early Church Fathers like Ignatius, Polycarp,etc. I didn’t know they existed. I was taught a fallacious version of church history in which after the Apostles died, the church went into hiding in home churches. In the Fourth Century, the false Catholic church came along and plunged Christianity into paganism and idolatry until Martin Luther rescued it.

Honest, that’s what I was taught.

Thankfully, my parents taught me that Catholics are Christians, too. And the evangelical church of my childhood taught tolerance and love for all people, including Catholics, since some of them were real Christians.

Anyway, you’re probably getting the idea that I still have a chip on my shoulder that no one ever told me about Eucharist, about the truth of the Sacraments, about the Magisterium (I’d never heard the word until I started going to the Catholic Church) and Apostolic Succession, about the Communion of Saints, about faith and WORKS, about all the rest of the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church.

I’ve know other converts who have a lot of the same feelings of being ripped off, of wasting their lives for many years.

We all agree, though, that we need to seek the Lord for gentleness and a spirit of peacemaking, not bitterness or clamor or lashing out against our old churches. Man’s anger will not accomplish God’s work.

Welcome home. We missed you.

 

[mark_a]

Mango-

It’s good old defensiveness. Sometimes we forget what our own Church and some excellent Catholic apologists teach us about the charitable exchange of ideas. Sometimes we forget to differentiate between the charitable Protestants who are here to enlighten us to their views and the ones who are here to “straighten us out”. Catholics from the Bible Belt can be are especially quick to defend.

I personally have realized this behavior in myself and know that it does no one any good. Pray for me.

 

[mango_2003]

Whit-

Great post. Thanks for that. It helps to understand where you (and possibly others are coming from).

~mango~

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I’m really not seeing a lack of charity on these forums.
I think sometimes when reading someone’s contribution, we might interject what we assume to be the poster’s intent or emotion, which is truly only an assumption on our parts.
We cannot see the body language, the facial expression, or hear the tone of voice.
All we can do is read the words.
Maybe it’s a good idea to ask for clarification, too, instead of assuming that one is being uncharitable.

When you see icons like these, :banghead: then I think it’s safe to “assume” the poster has a bee in his/her bonnet. But it usually isn’t something personal, as far as I’ve seen!

As Katholikos often says, “Peace to All on this Forum!”

Pax Christi. <><

 

[Peace-bwu]

There are, however, several, both Catholic and Protestant, who are not debating these issues properly. There is never a reason to get nasty and offensive. But having a heated, but loving, debate about such a treasured position is a great thing. I am thankful for forums like this to be able to understand other sides, as well as explain ours. I have been able to see that we often really understand much of the same things.

I agree!
Being on the Catholic side, I think I am *more* offended when a Catholic is "nasty". I am here for many reasons but "bashing" non- Catholics is not one of them. I do like tactful debate. I generally give a reply based on the tone of the post, if the person is being a little more edgy or even rude, I assume they will not be offended if I am short and to the point with a quick rebuttle. Sometimes, for example, if the post makes a little dig like "or don't you read the Bible, or believe that scripture to be true" I will reply with verses and repeat their rude little question back, but I avoid hostility. If the debate is not productive and just slinging mud instead of intellectual debate, I just move on to another thread.

 

[Shibboleth]

I have run into some things on this message board that has upset me because I felt that the behavior displayed was not Christian in nature and more driven by PRIDE and WRATH. When I tried to comment on some of the things on this forum sometimes I received the remark that as a Protestant my comments and Biblical citations were less than those of a Catholic.

Well in response to this a member private messaged me with a priest that I could talk to on the subject. So I did just that. If I get an unusual comment or something that I get frustrated with I ask him. He has helped me quite a bit.

The priest brought up the issue with another priest and a monk and now they help me out also. They feel that some of the comments on this message board are wrong and outright rude. Sometimes they jump online and read through the threads that I have issue with and instruct me on them also.

One thing that upsets them is that they think that Catholics should show a certain degree of humility when they respond, and they think that a few of the individuals here fail to do have this ability. They continued by saying that one must always defend their faith in a way that is in accordance with the faith that they follow, if they do not then their words are empty coffers. I am not sure what “empty coffers” means but those are the words that they used.

They have also stated that my Biblical scholarship on the Bible is just as relevant as any Catholic’s when it does not conflict with the Magisterium.