A Proof Against Catholicism

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First of all, did you read what VociMike said, he asked me how I thought it should have been done, so I told him. And I don’t claim to know better than God how things should have happened, but I did see a way that what Catholics claim happened could have been done without contradiction.
It’s a contradiction to you, just because you cannot fathom how it was done, does not mean it’s a contradiction. If you can’t understand it, it’s just one of those things you’re just gonna have to accept on faith, for now at least.

This could all have been avoided if you believed that the Church is completely correct on everything that should be believed, why don’t you?

Pax,
Zach
 
What follows is a proof exposing what I think is a contradiction in Catholicism. I am very interested to hear your feedback and refutations.

#1) God the Son consists of both a human and a Divine nature.

#2) God the Son’s Divine nature knows everything, omniscient, I believe the word is

#3) God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue

#4) God the Son said that God the Son(which would include both his human and his Divine natures) does not know everything.

Knowing from #3 that God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue, coupled with #4 we get, specifically:

#5) God the Son’s Divine nature does not know everything

#2 clearly contradicts #5, which would seem to imply there is a contradiction in the Catholic faith.

Please give your feedback and tell me which of my points you disagree with. Thanks.
The Catachism actually answers this very question. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Jesus as a human knows things as humans do in his space and time. His divine person knows all things and informs the human nature of certain things such as the hearts of the people he speaks with in the Gospels. Now the issue of what Jesus humanity does not know I can only guess is implied is the date of his return. That is not to say his divine nature is unaware. Also Jesus mentions time and again that in his felial relationship with the father that he only does what he sees the father doing. To imply that Jesus humanity was swallowed up in divinity was a problem in the early church. To be fully human meant that he has fully human Characteristics. So he does. His divinity is not lessened by his humanity.
 
Isn’t the Son one of the three persons of the Trinity? If He says, “the Son does not know”, wouldn’t that imply that no part of the Son knew? If the “divine part” of the Son, for lack of a better term, did know, then “the Son does not know” wouldn’t be a true statement, would it?
In the Bible, Jesus is called the “Son of God” (divine nature) and “Son of Man” (refers to His human nature). I think that when He says that He is refering to Himself in His humanness, not His divine Person. Which, by the way, is the same as God the Father! :eek:

Pax,
Zach
 
What follows is a proof exposing what I think is a contradiction in Catholicism. I am very interested to hear your feedback and refutations.

#1) God the Son consists of both a human and a Divine nature.

#2) God the Son’s Divine nature knows everything, omniscient, I believe the word is

#3) God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue

#4) God the Son said that God the Son(which would include both his human and his Divine natures) does not know everything.

Knowing from #3 that God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue, coupled with #4 we get, specifically:

#5) God the Son’s Divine nature does not know everything

#2 clearly contradicts #5, which would seem to imply there is a contradiction in the Catholic faith.

Please give your feedback and tell me which of my points you disagree with. Thanks.
#4 and #5–Where did you get these? Please show Scripture that supports this statement.
Please substaituate these statements.

God Bless!
 
You never did answer my question. What is your definition of a contradiction, and what is your definition of a paradox?
In responding to your post I used these definitions:

contradiction:
direct opposition between things compared
paradox
any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature
I believe that what you see as a contradiction is seen that way because you do not have a sufficient understanding of the Incarnation.
 
It’s a contradiction to you, just because you cannot fathom how it was done, does not mean it’s a contradiction. If you can’t understand it, it’s just one of those things you’re just gonna have to accept on faith, for now at least.

This could all have been avoided if you believed that the Church is completely correct on everything that should be believed, why don’t you?

Pax,
Zach
So I should accept everything the Church says? This makes me think, you guys claim we don’t need logic, that logic can’t comprehend how God works, it’s simply a matter of faith. I would ask you this. If you were talking with a Protestant, say, a Baptist, and you pointed out, “hey, the Baptist church can’t be the true Church, it was started X number of years after Jesus”, and he said, “well, we can’t understand how God made the Baptist church the true church, but he’s God, and he can do anything, and so it seems contradictory, but it’s really just paradoxical, and you need to accept that the Baptist church is true simply on faith, because we can’t understand how God did it”, wouldn’t that frustrate you endlessly? How would you respond to this person?
 
#4 and #5–Where did you get these? Please show Scripture that supports this statement.
Please substaituate these statements.

God Bless!
I got #4 from Matthew 24:36. #5 was a conclusion I drew from the other points.
 
So I should accept everything the Church says? This makes me think, you guys claim we don’t need logic, that logic can’t comprehend how God works, it’s simply a matter of faith. I would ask you this. If you were talking with a Protestant, say, a Baptist, and you pointed out, “hey, the Baptist church can’t be the true Church, it was started X number of years after Jesus”, and he said, “well, we can’t understand how God made the Baptist church the true church, but he’s God, and he can do anything, and so it seems contradictory, but it’s really just paradoxical, and you need to accept that the Baptist church is true simply on faith, because we can’t understand how God did it”, wouldn’t that frustrate you endlessly? How would you respond to this person?
But we can understand how God made the Catholic Church because He revealed that to us through the the Scriptures. We don’t have to just accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church on faith because it’s all right there for us. Your statement about the Baptist church doesn’t amount to much considering the creation of the one true Church is laid out so clearly in Scripture (Matt 16:16-19).

Pax,
Zach
 
In responding to your post I used these definitions:

contradiction:
paradox
I believe that what you see as a contradiction is seen that way because you do not have a sufficient understanding of the Incarnation.
Your definitions:

Contradiction: direct opposition between things compared

Paradox: any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature

So a paradox is just something you think is a contradiction? If I give you two statements that seem contradictory, how do you tell if they are directly opposed or just seem directly opposed? What are your criteria?
 
Isn’t the Son one of the three persons of the Trinity?
Yes.
If He says, “the Son does not know”, wouldn’t that imply that no part of the Son knew?
No. It doesn’t. The Son is both human and divine. He has both human knowledge-- which is finite-- and divine knowledge-- which is not.
If the “divine part” of the Son, for lack of a better term, did know, then “the Son does not know” wouldn’t be a true statement, would it?
Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

It is perfectly logical that Christ’s divine knowledge and human knowledge were different. And that he could at the same time know divinely and yet state he did not know humanly.

Did you read the three links I posted?

They tell you exactly how Jesus had Divine knowledge and yet could make the statement he made in Mark’s gospel regarding his human knowledge.
 
Your definitions:

Contradiction: direct opposition between things compared

Paradox: any person, thing, or situation exhibiting an apparently contradictory nature

So a paradox is just something you think is a contradiction? If I give you two statements that seem contradictory, how do you tell if they are directly opposed or just seem directly opposed? What are your criteria?
When it comes to matters of faith and morals I trust the teachings of Christ’s Church.
 
What follows is a proof exposing what I think is a contradiction in Catholicism. I am very interested to hear your feedback and refutations.

#1) God the Son consists of both a human and a Divine nature.

#2) God the Son’s Divine nature knows everything, omniscient, I believe the word is

#3) God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue

#4) God the Son said that God the Son(which would include both his human and his Divine natures) does not know everything.

Knowing from #3 that God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue, coupled with #4 we get, specifically:

#5) God the Son’s Divine nature does not know everything

#2 clearly contradicts #5, which would seem to imply there is a contradiction in the Catholic faith.

Please give your feedback and tell me which of my points you disagree with. Thanks.
The Church teaches #1, everything after that is either seriously flawed or flat wrong. You can’t get down the list to your contradiction because your list starts with a host of false assumptions.
 
But we can understand how God made the Catholic Church because He revealed that to us through the the Scriptures. We don’t have to just accept that the Catholic Church is the true Church on faith because it’s all right there for us. Your statement about the Baptist church doesn’t amount to much considering the creation of the one true Church is laid out so clearly in Scripture (Matt 16:16-19).

Pax,
Zach
All right, how about this. You are talking with someone and tell them they need their sins forgiven through Jesus in order to go to heaven. They reply that their religion says their sins are forgiven anyways, that God just lets people off the hook. You reply that God, being perfectly just, needs a sacrifice,(Jesus’ sacrifice) in order to forgive sins. They reply that even though it doesn’t make sense, God just lets people off the hook anyway, and even though it contradicts his just nature, it isn’t really contradictory, it’s just paradoxical, and it needs to be accepted on faith. Same question, how would you respond?
 
, you guys claim we don’t need logic, that logic can’t comprehend how God works,
The Church makes no such claim. Faith and reason are not contradictory. However, reason can take us only so far when it comes to the Divine. Since the Divine is infinite, there are things we can know only via Divine Revelation. The Trinity, for example.

The mind can comprehend aspects of how God works. We can never fully comprehend God because we are finite and He is not.

If you are serious about logic, philosophy, and theology then I suggest that you take college level courses in each of these. Right now you are neither a logician, philospher, or theologian.

You seem to be under the impression that no one ever thought of this before, and ta-dah you proved something no one else had attempted. The early Church grappled with these very concepts early on. How can he be both Human and Divine? What does that mean? Better men than you-- academically speaking-- tried and failed to properly explain it. Nestorius and Arius to name two. The Church studied these things carefully, and articulated the proper understanding of the hypostatic union 1700 years ago. So, you can study these teachings, the arguments of the Church, and the teachings of the Church and see where your logic errs.
 
The Church teaches #1, everything after that is either seriously flawed or flat wrong. You can’t get down the list to your contradiction because your list starts with a host of false assumptions.
Well #4 definetely is true, look at Matthew24:36. As for #2, doesn’t God the Son know everything? Isn’t He, as a person of the Trinity, a Divine being, omniscient? As for #3, *can *Jesus be wrong about anything? If He can, doesn’t that defeat the idea that he is God?
 
Because Jesus said:
…I am the way, and the** truth**, and the life…

John 14:6​
Jesus established a visible Church and he promised:
When the Spirit of** truth** comes, he will guide you into all the** truth**; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come

John 16:13​
Therefore the teachings of the Church are true and worthy of acceptance.
 
The Church makes no such claim. Faith and reason are not contradictory. However, reason can take us only so far when it comes to the Divine. Since the Divine is infinite, there are things we can know only via Divine Revelation. The Trinity, for example.

The mind can comprehend aspects of how God works. We can never fully comprehend God because we are finite and He is not.

If you are serious about logic, philosophy, and theology then I suggest that you take college level courses in each of these. Right now you are neither a logician, philospher, or theologian.

You seem to be under the impression that no one ever thought of this before, and ta-dah you proved something no one else had attempted. The early Church grappled with these very concepts early on. How can he be both Human and Divine? What does that mean? Better men than you-- academically speaking-- tried and failed to properly explain it. Nestorius and Arius to name two. The Church studied these things carefully, and articulated the proper understanding of the hypostatic union 1700 years ago. So, you can study these teachings, the arguments of the Church, and the teachings of the Church and see where your logic errs.
Yes I heard about them. I believe the Church’s final ruling was that it’s a mystery, it can’t be understood? Well that’s great, except that if every member of non-christian religions followed that rule, they would have stayed their same religion out of faith and not converted to Christianity, and Christianity would have died out within 100 years.
 
Because Jesus said:

Jesus established a visible Church and he promised:

Therefore the teachings of the Church are true and worthy of acceptance.
And why do you trust what Jesus said?
 
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