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davidv
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This understanding of “mystery” is deficient. Mysteries can be understood, just not fully.
Since that didn’t happen, it must mean that what you propose isn’t true.
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tonsofquestions
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And why do you believe this?He is God.
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TMC
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In #2 you say that the “Divine Nature” of Jesus is omniscient. Christ’s two natures are not seperable in that way. To say his divine nature does x or y is a turn of speech, like saying that the athlete in me wants to go to the gym, but the couch potato in me wants to stay home. I don’t really have two people in me battling things out. The athlete in me doesn’t know things that the couch potato in me does not.Well #4 definetely is true, look at Matthew24:36. As for #2, doesn’t God the Son know everything? Isn’t He, as a person of the Trinity, a Divine being, omniscient? As for #3, *can *Jesus be wrong about anything? If He can, doesn’t that defeat the idea that he is God?
We do not know exactly how Christ’s mind worked during the time of his earthly incarnation. He had a fully divine nature, and a fully human nature. It appears from Scripture that He was not omniscient during the Incarnation, because the Gospels tell us that He learned and grew in wisdom, see Luke 2:40, 52. We know that He is reported as saying things that are not true, and, as you point out, at times He appears to admit He doesn’t know everything.
The answer is that we don’t understand what it was like to be Jesus, be its likely that Jesus was not omniscient (in the way you use the word) during the Incarnation.
#3) God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue. This is clearly wrong. We would like to think that God would not say anything untrue, but He could. He could also decline to tell us certain things. Even more likely, we could misinterpret what He says so badly that it becomes untrue.
Your #4 relies on your statement that if Jesus were divine He must of been omniscient throughout the Incarnation, which I have discussed above. It also relies on interpreting the word “Son” in the passage to refer to Jesus as a member of the Trinity. Many theologians interpret it as a more symbolic statement meant to emphasize that not even the “sons of God,” which would include all Christians, know the end time. I don’t know, but neither interpretation is necessarily contradictory.
Of course, all of this presupposes that Matthew recorded what Jesus said accurately. That is a topic of its own.
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1ke
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“heard about them” is not the same thing as “studied the issues thoroughly”Yes I heard about them.
No, that is not what the Church means by mystery. And certainly we can understand that Jesus has an infinite divine nature (and knowledge) united to his finite human nature (and knowledge).I believe the Church’s final ruling was that it’s a mystery, it can’t be understood?
Non-sequiter.Well that’s great, except that if every member of non-christian religions followed that rule, they would have stayed their same religion out of faith and not converted to Christianity, and Christianity would have died out within 100 years.
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tonsofquestions
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Well if God could lie to us, maybe heaven’s a joke too. Maybe we’re all destined for oblivion and He just gets a kick out of watching us pray rosaries. Is that really Catholic teaching, that God can lie?#3) God the Son cannot say anything that is untrue. This is clearly wrong. We would like to think that God would not say anything untrue, but He could. He could also decline to tell us certain things. Even more likely, we could misinterpret what He says so badly that it becomes untrue.
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sambos671
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You know I did make a post in post 22. Just thought that would help the conversation.
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tonsofquestions
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My problem is not necessarily that Jesus’ knowledge is limited, but that he says the Son(as in, the second person of the Trinity), does not know. So it is not only that his humanity’sThe Catachism actually answers this very question. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. Jesus as a human knows things as humans do in his space and time. His divine person knows all things and informs the human nature of certain things such as the hearts of the people he speaks with in the Gospels. Now the issue of what Jesus humanity does not know I can only guess is implied is the date of his return. That is not to say his divine nature is unaware. Also Jesus mentions time and again that in his felial relationship with the father that he only does what he sees the father doing. To imply that Jesus humanity was swallowed up in divinity was a problem in the early church. To be fully human meant that he has fully human Characteristics. So he does. His divinity is not lessened by his humanity.
knowledge is incomplete, but that he seems to imply that his divinity’s knowledge is incomplete as well.
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sambos671
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Can you show me what scripture verse you’re alluding to?My problem is not necessarily that Jesus’ knowledge is limited, but that he says the Son(as in, the second person of the Trinity), does not know. So it is not only that his humanity’s
knowledge is incomplete, but that he seems to imply that his divinity’s knowledge is incomplete as well.
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tonsofquestions
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Matthew 24:36Can you show me what scripture verse you’re alluding to?
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Chaldean_Rite
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I think my 3rd grade students can answer this one TOC, its simply Jesus speaking as a man. Why is this hard to wrap around your head?Matthew 24:36
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tonsofquestions
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Thank you for the insult, it was very charitable. Now, are you saying that Jesus “switches off” between being a man and being divine? Sometime it’s God talking, sometimes it’s just a man talking? How many of Jesus’ teachings came from a man, and not God, then?I think my 3rd grade students can answer this one TOC, its simply Jesus speaking as a man. Why is this hard to wrap around your head?
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Chaldean_Rite
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Take it anyway you like, I teach Catechsim is they can answer this.Thank you for the insult, it was very charitable. Now, are you saying that Jesus “switches off” between being a man and being divine? Sometime it’s God talking, sometimes it’s just a man talking? How many of Jesus’ teachings came from a man, and not God, then?
Before you continue down this path, know that God knows everything, and Jesus Christ is God and Man, and this is a Mystery. And clearly, from the above verse, the Man does not know everything, whether this is from His free will or not is perhaps a bette question.
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1ke
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In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus refers to the Son of Man.My problem is not necessarily that Jesus’ knowledge is limited, but that he says the Son(as in, the second person of the Trinity), does not know.
That is not what it implies. That is not what the Church teaches.So it is not only that his humanity’s
knowledge is incomplete, but that he seems to imply that his divinity’s knowledge is incomplete as well.
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tonsofquestions
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What is that supposed to mean? Whoever this “they” is(presumably your students), if they can answer this so well, what is the answer they would give?Take it anyway you like, I teach Catechsim is they can answer this.
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tonsofquestions
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And who is the Son of Man?In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus refers to the Son of Man.
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1ke
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No, that is an early heresy, refuted by the Church.Now, are you saying that Jesus “switches off” between being a man and being divine? Sometime it’s God talking, sometimes it’s just a man talking? How many of Jesus’ teachings came from a man, and not God, then?
They hypostatic union is the correct understanding of Christ’s human and divine natures.
Jesus’s divine nature (and knowledge) is infinite. His human nature (and knowledge) is finite.
Did you read the three links I posted to you? It seems you have not.
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davidv
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Is there anything in the NT that indicates that any of this switching is happening? I do not know of any.Thank you for the insult, it was very charitable. Now, are you saying that Jesus “switches off” between being a man and being divine? Sometime it’s God talking, sometimes it’s just a man talking? How many of Jesus’ teachings came from a man, and not God, then?
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Chaldean_Rite
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(close to what they have answered): Jesus, as both God and Man, was speaking only in His humanity here because Jesus as God does know all things.What is that supposed to mean? Whoever this “they” is(presumably your students), if they can answer this so well, what is their answer?
whereas, Jesus, in many other places, “knew the hearts” of certain people, was speaking presumebly in both.
also, there is a time when Jesus asks who touched his robe, again, he was speaking only in His humanity, for sure in His Divine person He knew who touched Him, but as far as His humanity was concerned, it either was not made known.
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sambos671
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No but the divinity reveals to the Humanity as it sees fit. Its constantly with him. It is in fact who he is.Thank you for the insult, it was very charitable. Now, are you saying that Jesus “switches off” between being a man and being divine? Sometime it’s God talking, sometimes it’s just a man talking? How many of Jesus’ teachings came from a man, and not God, then?
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1ke
Guest
In the words of Maria in the sound of music: begin at the very beginning, a very good place to start.And who is the Son of Man?
If you do not know the answer to this, some serious bible study is in order. Again, as I suggested, study.
I can recommend you start with Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners. Don’t let the title fool you, this is deep stuff.
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