A Prophecy of Jesus

[paarsurrey]

Originally **Posted by Cran **
But why do I have this strange feeling in my little toe that not much good will come out of this thread…?

Because like a number of Moslems here paarsurrey believes that it’s only reasonable if you agree with his position. He tells you what the position is. You’re expected to accept it - like an awakening to his truth. Anything beyond that is, for him, pointless argument.

Hi

No , sir, I am not like that. Cran is free to differ with me if he finds something wrong but with sound rational arguments, if you like you could even help him in truth . I don’t mind, no compulsion. Islam is a peaceful faith, one should only believe that with which one is convinced heart and soul; putting off the blind thinking miles behind.

Thanks

 

[andzy]

I have been writing on these subjects for quite sometimes here. Please read my posts in the forum, I am sure you would find my comments.

I read some of your posts, and frankly, was not able to find answers to my question. The closest I could find was this post of yours. Some of its theories were refuted by Rodrigo Bivar’s post, to which, unfortunately, you never gave a decent answer.

Anyway, I paid attention to two points regarding Jesus going to India: the BBC documentary and the New Testament evidence.
Regarding the BBC:
This was clearly no scholarly work, because:
a) it never included an opponent to this theory;
b) the selection of the scholars was doubtful (a couple of them were known “anti-Christians”) - but ok, I’m not too hanged up on this one;
c) most importantly, everything was based on lots of “what if” arguments and speculations; I mean, why not believe that Jesus survived and went to Southern France (a theory to which the documentary referred to), there are legends and other “proofs” to support the claim. If anybody went to India then it was the Apostle Thomas.
Regarding the “Jesus in India” book:
This also is a far cry from scholarly work. I only read the chapter about NT “proofs”. Well, the author was plainly ignoring all Bible verses that talk about Christ’s death, and his two main “proofs” were:
a) the sign of Jonah - you cannot just take a secondary (at least) meaning of what Christ was saying, ignore the context and pretty much base your theology on that;
b) that Jesus had a body after Resurrection; well, of course He did, Christians don’t deny that - that’s what happens, when you’re resurrected.
This chapter (and look like the entire book) has no real sources and historic arguments.

I understand that your faith is strong, but if you cannot provide any more or less logical reasons for it, then I don’t see how it makes sense. You tell people to provide “sound rational arguments”, but I haven’t seen you offering any yourself.
You’ve said you’re not here to debate, and you clearly don’t do that. Sorry pal, but if you just throw out some claims, don’t back them up, and always ignore or avoid answering any objections, then for other people your faith looks blind, not strong. If that’s not what you want, I’d suggest you to rethink you “discussion” style.

 

[paarsurrey]

I read some of your posts, and frankly, was not able to find answers to my question. The closest I could find was this post of yours. Some of its theories were refuted by Rodrigo Bivar’s post, to which, unfortunately, you never gave a decent answer.

Anyway, I paid attention to two points regarding Jesus going to India: the BBC documentary and the New Testament evidence.
Regarding the BBC:
This was clearly no scholarly work, because:
a) it never included an opponent to this theory;
b) the selection of the scholars was doubtful (a couple of them were known “anti-Christians”) - but ok, I’m not too hanged up on this one;
c) most importantly, everything was based on lots of “what if” arguments and speculations; I mean, why not believe that Jesus survived and went to Southern France (a theory to which the documentary referred to), there are legends and other “proofs” to support the claim. If anybody went to India then it was the Apostle Thomas.
Regarding the “Jesus in India” book:
This also is a far cry from scholarly work. I only read the chapter about NT “proofs”. Well, the author was plainly ignoring all Bible verses that talk about Christ’s death, and his two main “proofs” were:
a) the sign of Jonah - you cannot just take a secondary (at least) meaning of what Christ was saying, ignore the context and pretty much base your theology on that;
b) that Jesus had a body after Resurrection; well, of course He did, Christians don’t deny that - that’s what happens, when you’re resurrected.
This chapter (and look like the entire book) has no real sources and historic arguments.

I understand that your faith is strong, but if you cannot provide any more or less logical reasons for it, then I don’t see how it makes sense. You tell people to provide “sound rational arguments”, but I haven’t seen you offering any yourself.
You’ve said you’re not here to debate, and you clearly don’t do that. Sorry pal, but if you just throw out some claims, don’t back them up, and always ignore or avoid answering any objections, then for other people your faith looks blind, not strong. If that’s not what you want, I’d suggest you to rethink you “discussion” style.

Hi

Thanks for you advice.

I only want that everybody should make a little research, leave the blind thinking behind, no need of conversion, just follow the truth.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has submitted the other side of the picture and very forcefully. Now if what you say is correct, why in all these 100+ years nobody has published anybook providing the counter evidences and arguments, neithe in Urdu nor in English or anyother language? The only thing the Church has done, to my knowledge, is that nobody should talk to an Ahmadi. I think that is a faulty approach. Do you agree wtih me? I think you agree.

Thanks

 

[George_Waters]

I only want that everybody should make a little research, leave the blind thinking behind, no need of conversion, just follow the truth.

More accusations of “blind thinking”! ALL thinking not in line with your beliefs are simply “blind thinking” aren’t they? Deny this if you will, but your previous statements are to the contrary.

 

[andzy]

I only want that everybody should make a little research, leave the blind thinking behind, no need of conversion, just follow the truth.

Then you should show an example, also do some research, and prepare yourself enough to get into a debate. And please, find some more credible research.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has submitted the other side of the picture and very forcefully. Now if what you say is correct, why in all these 100+ years nobody has published anybook providing the counter evidences and arguments, neithe in Urdu nor in English or anyother language?

I don’t know about the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 (and haven’t heard any references about him from before 1835). I think you can easily find counter evidences, and some of them have been presented to you even on this forum (as I gave an example in my previous post); unfortunately, you’ve avoided answering them. I should ask you: why for 1800 years nobody had presented any evidence supporting your views (neither in Hebrew, nor Latin, nor Greek, nor English).

The only thing the Church has done, to my knowledge, is that nobody should talk to an Ahmadi. I think that is a faulty approach. Do you agree wtih me? I think you agree.

No, I don’t agree with you. I haven’t heard from the Church that nobody should talk to an Ahmadi or anybody else - unless, of course, their motives are sincere and their intentions are not deceit and harm. Honestly, if somebody has avoided talking then it is you (when asked to back up your arguments). Don’t you agree?
Peace

 

[George_Waters]

No, I don’t agree with you. I haven’t heard from the Church that nobody should talk to an Ahmadi or anybody else - unless, of course, their motives are sincere and their intentions are not deceit and harm. Honestly, if somebody has avoided talking then it is you (when asked to back up your arguments). Don’t you agree?
Peace

I have to agree, I had never heard of an Ahmadi before you.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

Paarsurrey, Catholics are not told to avoid non-believers. In fact, we are explicitely exhorted to evangelize. I can understand that you feel shunned; your mainstream Muslim brothers don’t exactly welcome you:

Followers of Ahmadiyya are considered deviant and therefore regarded as kafirs (non-muslims) and as all other kafirs Ahmadis upon death will go to Hell. Therefore please save yourself and your brothers and sisters from this wrong religion. Especially if they do not know the real message of Ahmadiyya. It may sound harsh but Prophet Muhammad had thought us to deliver the message in a simple and straight manner so that everybody can understand, because someone’s life someone’s destiny depends on it.

Further Fatwas against Ahmadiyyat can be found here: AboutAhmadiyya.com

There are plenty of folks who would like nothing better than to talk to you in the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults program: How to become a Catholic

You may be delighted to learn that, unlike any other religious persuasion, the Holy Catholic Church has a divinely commissioned authority to teach: The Teaching Authority of the Church

We don’t just make stuff up!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Now if what you say is correct, why in all these 100+ years nobody has published anybook providing the counter evidences and arguments, neithe in Urdu nor in English or anyother language?

Because Ahmadi claims are border-line stupid and don’t deserve the effort of a book. We don’t need “counter evidences and arguments” to deny Jesus’ visit to India. Our knowledge of Jesus and His fulfillment of prophecies has no room for such stupid claims. We won’t waste our precious time.

What’s next; Jesus visited Mars? That’s as stupid as Jesus visiting India.

The only thing the Church has done, to my knowledge, is that nobody should talk to an Ahmadi…

And there you go again, making more stupid claims.

Sometimes I wonder if you believe your own stupid claims, or if you are just playing with us and just pulling our legs.

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

Folks, you too can stoke your fascination for Ahmadianism at: Idara Dawat-O-Irshad

Praise be to Allah(SWT), Idara Dawat-O-Irshad has been incorporated in Washington DC metropolitan area, as a non-profit organization, since 1990. I would like to introduce you to one of the important objectives and activities of this organization.

In the Holy Quran, (verse 33:40), Allah(SWT) informs the humanity that Muhammad(SAW) of Arabia is the last Prophet of Allah(SWT) and that we should not be mislead by false prophets, who might appear after him. Our organization is involved with clarifying and spreading this divine and momentous message.

As you might know, recent years have seen the advent of many individuals with claims to prophethood. Among these David Koresh, Jim Jones, and Charles Manson are well known in the United States. Unfortunately, Muslim countries have not been spared of such fraudulent man-made cults – Bahais in Iran and Qadianis (Ahmadis) in India are two of the better known examples of such man-made “religions”.

Of all these newly formed cults, Qadianism (Ahmadiyyat) poses the most danger to the uninformed. This is due to the fact that the adherants of this organization appear and claim to be Muslims, at a superficial level, while they advocate beliefs contrary to the teachings of Islam…

Lots more.

You can even join their discussion forum: Qadianism Discussion Forum

I hope you don’t all abandon CAF in the stampede to Ahmadyanism!

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Next from Jesus’ Second Coming 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad on the fulfillment of the prophecy of **Matthew 16:28 **from his book “Jesus in India”: alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html

So, what actually happened was that Jesus knew that he would be saved from the Cross and would migrate to another land, that God would neither let him die nor would take him away from this world, so long as he had not seen the destruction of the Jews with his own eyes, and that he would not die so long as the fruits of the Kingdom, which the spiritually eminent are given by heaven, were not realised.

Jesus made this prophecy so that he might give an assurance to the disciples that, presently they would see the signs that those who had raised the sword against him would be killed with the sword during his own life-time and in his very presence. If, therefore, evidence is of any value there is for Christians no evidence greater than this: that Jesus with his own tongue makes the prophecy that some of them would still be alive when he would come again.

It should be noticed that the gospels contain two kinds of prophecies about the coming of Jesus:

(1) The promise of his coming in the latter days; his coming is of a spiritual character, and resembles the second coming of the prophet Elijah, in the time of Jesus. So, like Elijah, he has already appeared in this age; and it is I, the writer; a servant of humanity, who has come as the Promised Messiah, in the name of Jesus (on whom be peace). Jesus has given the news of my coming in the gospels. Blessed is he who, out of respect for Jesus, ponders with honesty and truth over my coming, and thus saves himself from stumbling.

(2) The other kind of prophecies regarding the second coming of Jesus mentioned in the gospels have, in reality, been mentioned as evidence of the life which, by the grace of God, remained intact during the experience of the Cross; God saved His eminent servant from death on the Cross, as the prophecy just now mentioned implies – Christians are in error in mixing up these two contexts: because of this, they are confused and have to face many difficulties. In short, the verse 28 in chapter 16 of Matthew is a very important piece of evidence in support of Jesus’ escape from the Cross.

Unquote

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Next from Jesus’ Second Coming 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad on the fulfillment of the prophecy of Matthew 24:30 from his book “Jesus in India”: alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html

Among the testimonies of the gospels which have reached us, is the following verse of Matthew: ‘And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.’ (See Matthew, chapter 24, verse 30).

The meaning of this verse is: Jesus (on whom be peace) says that a time will come when, from heaven, viz. as a result of the power of divine intervention, there would come into being knowledge, arguments and evidence which will invalidate the beliefs of Jesus’ divinity, his death on the Cross and his going up into heaven and coming again; and that heaven will bear witness against the lies of those who denied his being a true prophet, for example, the Jews; and who, on the other hand, regarded him, because of his crucifixion, as a man accursed, for the fact of his not having suffered death on the Cross and therefore of his not being accursed would be clearly established; that then all the nations of the earth, who had exaggerated or detracted from his true status would become greatly ashamed of their error; that, in the same age, when this fact would be established, people would see Jesus’ metaphorical descent to the earth, i.e., in those very days the Promised Messiah, who would come in the power and spirit of Jesus, would appear with all the lustrous signs, and heavenly support and with the power and glory which would be recognised.

The verse – further explained – means that God’s destiny has made the personality of Jesus and fashioned the events of his life so as to cause some people to exaggerate, and others to minimize his status, i.e., there are people who have taken him out of the category of human beings, so much so that they say that he has not yet died and is sitting alive in heaven. The people who have outrun these are those who say that, having died on the Cross and come to life again, he has gone up to heaven and become invested with all the powers of divinity; nay, he is God Himself.

The other people are the Jews, who say that he was killed on the Cross and therefore (I take refuge with God for saying so) he is accursed for all time; he is doomed to be the object of perpetual wrath; God is displeased with him, and looks upon him as a hated enemy; that he is a liar and an impostor and (I take refuge with God for saying so) a Kafir, a rank unbeliever; that he is not from God. This exaggeration and detraction were so unjust that it could not but be that God should clear His true prophet of these charges. The verse of the gospel mentioned before points to this fact.

The statement that all the tribes of the earth would mourn, suggests that all those tribes to whom the description underlying the word ‘nation’ applies would mourn on that day; they would beat their breasts and cry, and great would be their mourning. Here Christians should follow the verse in question with some attention; they should consider that when the verse contains the prophecy that all the nations would beat their breasts, how is it that they should have nothing to do with this mourning? Are they not a nation? When, in accordance with this verse, they are included among those who are the beaters of breasts, why do they not attend to their salvation? The verse clearly says that when the sign of Jesus would appear in heaven all the nations inhabiting the earth would mourn. So the man who says that his tribe would not mourn denies Jesus.

Unquote

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

And out comes the spam!

Possible quotes

“If in doubt, spam…”
[SIGN]paarsurrey![/SIGN]

 

[JohnPaulTwoToo]

The unlettered prophet had not known the Old Testament prophecies of the Mesiah as suffering servant, which the Jews were, and still are, very aware of:

Pslam 21 (numberings vary)

Isaiah 53

Further, Elias was taken bodily into heaven, and returned at Christ’s Transifiguration to prefigure His Ascension. His resurrected body was witnessed by hundreds. The Ascension was also witnessed by many.

We’re supposed to take your word that your false prophet, one of thousands, has the right story? :nope:

 

[dolphinlove]

And out comes the spam!

Possible quotes

“If in doubt, spam…”
[SIGN]paarsurrey![/SIGN]

I think he needs to do this to reassure himself of his beliefs.