A Proposal to My Fellow Lutherans...

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TriuneUnity said:
It was given to us by God because God is its author. The Church always had Scripture prior to its canonization. Having said that, the Church did receive the text and place it in a “list.” This does not, however, require an infallible decision.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the habit of classifying everything as fallible/infallible a rather late development in the history of the church?

I think the more important (or at least more fundamental) question is, Was it an authoritative decision?
 
Peter_J said:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the habit of classifying everything as fallible/infallible a rather late development in the history of the church?

I think the more important (or at least more fundamental) question is, Was it an authoritative decision?
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You’re probably right, Peter. Yes, it was an authoritative decision.

As a matter of history, though, was it authoritative for the entire church as an article of faith?
 
Peter_J said:
Ah … perhaps I said “Pope” when I should have said “Papacy”. But I think my essential point remains valid: that the Lutheran documents don’t simply say that the Papacy “is [an] anti-Christ”, but rather that it “is the anti-Christ”.
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That is true. However, we do not have a view of eschatology that says there will be the Anti-Christ at some point in the future. So I guess you have it divorce it from the dispensationalist distortions of end times junk.
 
here_i_stand said:
I am WELS, and while my own opinion is confused on this issue, here is a link that will more fully explain the doctrinal position of the office of the papacy as being the antichrist.

wlsessays.net/files/BergAntichrist.pdf
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Really, gang, this pope/papacy being the anti-Christ stuff is ridiculous.

I admire your devotion to Christ, but he did establish a church and endow us with the Holy Spirit to guide us through the ages.

I’ll back out and defer to the OP. Thank you for the answers.

RAR
 
RAR said:
Really, gang, this pope/papacy being the anti-Christ stuff is ridiculous.

I admire your devotion to Christ, but he did establish a church and endow us with the Holy Spirit to guide us through the ages.

I’ll back out and defer to the OP. Thank you for the answers.

RAR
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You’re welcome, RAR.

He did give us the Spirit, who speaks to us through Word and Sacrament. Not the office of one bishop.
 
TriuneUnity said:
No; because the authority of the Scriptures and the canonicity of them are not dependent on the Church. They are dependent upon the authority and infallibility of its divine author.
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What??? Authority of them, as in authorship, no… but canonicity of them most certainly was dependent on the Church guided by the HS… If he didn’t guide the Church to infallibly choose which scriptures belong in the Bible than how can you trust they put the proper ones in there? I don’t recall that he came back to deliver an organized book with all the proper contents.

Yes they were dependent on the HS to guide them, but he left a Church to guide. If they weren’t being infallibly guided by the HS then why trust what they come up with?

SD
 
SD_Catholic said:
What??? Authority of them, as in authorship, no… but canonicity of them most certainly was dependent on the Church guided by the HS…
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No, it wasn’t. Only the author can define the canon, not His audience. The books of the Bible were canonical once God wrote them.
If he didn’t guide the Church to infallibly choose which scriptures belong in the Bible than how can you trust they put the proper ones in there? I don’t recall that he came back to deliver an organized book with all the proper contents.
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The proper ones were in there prior to the Church proclaiming them to be canonical. The Old Testament was finished hundreds of years before the Church and used by the Jews. What infallible church body proclaimed them canonical? I trust the proper ones are in there because I trust in God to adequately reveal His Word to His people. My confidence in the canon lies not in the Church, but in God.
Yes they were dependent on the HS to guide them, but he left a Church to guide. If they weren’t being infallibly guided by the HS then why trust what they come up with?
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SD
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The infallibility of the Church is not necessary, because God is infallible enough. No one is denying the Holy Spirit guides the Church. We do not believe that the Church is incapable of resisting this guidance, however.
 
and I say.

Glory be to God forever! for keeping His promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.

what i see happens is that those who left the CC cannot accept the fact that they no longer truly follow Christ. then they get angry with the CC for saying that she is the True Church.

then they try to convince everyone that the CC is false. so they go on with their false teachings and confusing people hinder them from entering the True Church.
 
TriuneUnity said:
No, it wasn’t. Only the author can define the canon, not His audience. The books of the Bible were canonical once God wrote them.
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Well before I continue derailing this thread, please show me where he did this???

God did not write scripture… he used MEN to write scripture and he used MEN to put them in a book… you are using word manipulation to deny this simple fact:(

SD
 
JonNC said:
…that the time has come to rid our Confession of the condemnations of the pope or papacy as antichrist. Above and beyond the fact that this condemnation was written and referred to a time when polemics and anger marred the church, this language now harms greatly charity between ourselves and our Catholic brothers and sisters, and casts a shadow of doubt over sincerity with which our leaders come to the table of ecumenical discussion.

In addition, I contend that it no longer applies to the current papacy, and offer two proofs.
  1. The Apology to the Augsburg Confession
The language and stance of the Catholic Church in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification now renders this charge moot.
As well, The language of Lumen Gentium renders this charge moot.

The fact is the Lutheran Church is not a new church, as one might consider other protestants, but instead we are reformationists, and our goal has always been and should always be unity with the Church through history.
The charge of antichrist is both inflamatory and, in light of recent times, unnecessary and, frankly no longer true.

**I contend that any “antichrist” charge was never true. **

My intention will be to contact my synod leaders, and petition them in this way. I hope you will do the same.

A await the comments of all CAF members, but especially Lutherans.

Jon
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SD_Catholic said:
Well before I continue derailing this thread, please show me where he did this???

God did not write scripture… he used MEN to write scripture and he used MEN to put them in a book… you are using word manipulation to deny this simple fact:(

SD
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If you deny God is the author of Scripture, then you deny the teaching of your own Catechism. Yes, he used the means of men to write Scripture; but the words are the Words of God.

“All Scripture is breathed forth by God.”
 
SD_Catholic said:
Well before I continue derailing this thread, please show me where he did this???

God did not write scripture… he used MEN to write scripture and he used MEN to put them in a book… you are using word manipulation to deny this simple fact:(

SD
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maybe whoever gave them this enterpretation forgot to tell them that the apostles were men.
 
TriuneUnity said:
If you deny God is the author of Scripture, then you deny the teaching of your own Catechism. Yes, he used the means of men to write Scripture; but the words are the Words of God.

“All Scripture is breathed forth by God.”
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Is this your way of dodging the question or trying to get back to the OP?.. because you are basically repeating what I said… Incase you forgot I’ll show you what you wrote which caused me to respond…
TriuneUnity…
The books of the Bible were canonical once God wrote them.
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So I wrote that God didn’t write them… he used MEN to write them…

The same way he used MEN to decide which Scripture would and would not be included in the Bible…

I’m pretty sure you have no desire to learn this from anybody so I’ll probably let you continue with your quest for the continued labeling of the papal office as the anti-christ…

JonNC… I respect you very much in your search for truth and understanding among all Chrisitians…

SD
 
SD_Catholic said:
So I wrote that God didn’t write them… he used MEN to write them…

The same way he used MEN to decide which Scripture would and would not be included in the Bible…
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God didn’t write them. So to you, they are purely human documents, right? God didn’t know which Scripture belonged in the canon, so He needed the Church to decide it?
I’m pretty sure you have no desire to learn this from anybody so I’ll probably let you continue with your quest for the continued labeling of the papal office as the anti-christ…
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Oh brother. Can’t ever discuss an issue without it becoming personal, right?
 
TriuneUnity said:
I trust the proper ones are in there because I trust in God to adequately reveal His Word to His people. My confidence in the canon lies not in the Church, but in God.
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I assume then that you also trust God to guide His people in e.g. resolving the Arian controversy through the First Council of Nicea.
 
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