A Protestant assertion about the apocrypha

[djrakowski]

My wife and I have been studying to determine if we should convert to Catholicism. She recently came across an article from a Protestant apologetics organization that makes the following assertion: that somewhere in the apocrypha, there’s an account of God assisting someone in a lie. Unfortunately, there’s no citation for this assertion. Can anyone help me either confirm or refute it?

 

[mlchance]

djrakowski:

…that somewhere in the apocrypha, there’s an account of God assisting someone in a lie. Unfortunately, there’s no citation for this assertion. Can anyone help me either confirm or refute it?

My general rule is that assertions made without citations are self-refuting.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[djrakowski]

mlchance:

My general rule is that assertions made without citations are self-refuting.

– Mark L. Chance.

Probably true, Mark

Still, I’d like to see if anyone knows what this guy may be talking about…

 

[djrakowski]

I’ve found it: Read the references to the Book of Judith.

Dan

 

[mercygate]

djrakowski:

I’ve found it: Read the references to the Book of Judith.

Dan

If ever I saw a case for why we need the Church as our guide to Scripture, this article sets it out in undeniable clarity!

 

[Maccabees]

The Lord works in mystererious ways he commanded Abraham to kill his own son! Protestants are no shocked by this but gee a white law hey that can’t be scripture of course the Israelistes where hidden err lying by Rahab a prostitute. Moses sister was err lying when she preteneded she didn’t know who Moses was and of course Moses mohter was err lying to not admitting that was her son.

Of course look at the many battles and wars that including killing supposedly from God. Look God’s ways are not mine and some things in scripture a confusing on a moral level but hey I don’t trust in my own ability to canonize scripture apparently protestants have this ability. Talk about intellectual pride!
Try this one Lot offered his daughters to be raped and God was not mad at him. He later was seduced by his daughters and they were impregnanted by their father yet God did not curse them or their actions. That’s weird isn’t it? But hey a lie that can’t be.
OF course Jacob got the covenant of his father Issac by of all things lying to him! You mean God rewards a convenant to a liar. All of Israel is founded on the lie of Jacob pretending to be Esau thus taking the birthrite of the firstbron Essau… OF course the Protestant has no problem with this lie does he? Kinda inconsistent to say the least!

 

[Malachi4U]

Have you not ever told a small lie yourself? Can not a small lie sometimes be helpfull? This shot won’t hurt?

What about telling your children about: Santa Clause? Tooth ferry? Easter Bunny? Cover up a surprise party? Etc…

I don’t know about the verse you quoted but sometimes as parents we have to tell a little lie to get help children or to bring out a surprise. Does God lie? Perhaps just a little to help us out? If Christians knew how hard it was to follow Jesus in His Catholic Church and face constant bigotry and persecution would we still become Catholic (i.e. Christians)?

No answer here, just more questions.

PS, an early welcome home! I’ll pray for you. It is hard to become a Catholic Christian when you’ve been led astray by so many lies, false truths or just bigoted remarks and propaganda. The truth is out there, just search for it. I found it and so can you too. Just let the Holy Spirit lead you home to Rome and the Church Christ founded.

A prisoner of Christ,

 

[Contarini]

People lie repeatedly in the OT and appear to be commended for doing so. Protestants who make this accusation against Judith are being extremely inconsistent. (The same is true of the accusation of “works-righteousness” made against the Wisdom books–you can find the same sort of statements in the undisputed OT.)

Edwin

 

[Maccabees]

Kinda reminds me of when in the Sound of Music the Nazis are looking for the Von Trapp family do the religious sisters tell them the truth? Of course not. The Protestant Corrie Ten Boom who hid Jews from the Nazia lied all the time that she had no Jews in her home.
To say that all lies are bad is simply retarded.

 

[Katholish]

All lies are bad.

Lets get a working definition here:
Lie: A false statement or implication with an intent to deceive.

Lying is my nature sinful. Even in a case of Nazi officiers asking if you are hiding Jews (which is the classic example used as a situation to illustrate the point in debates on lying), you should not lie.

 

[otm]

Katholish:

All lies are bad.

Lets get a working definition here:
Lie: A false statement or implication with an intent to deceive.

Lying is my nature sinful. Even in a case of Nazi officiers asking if you are hiding Jews (which is the classic example used as a situation to illustrate the point in debates on lying), you should not lie.

No, There is more to it than you state. Underlying it is the assumption that the person asking the question has a moral right to the answer. If they have no moral right to the truth, you do not have a moral duty to reveal it.

It is possible to deceive without lying; giving a “non-answer” by misdirecting through your answer can be a lie (or not), based on the right (or lack thereof) to the truth. you did not literaly lie, you just answered the question in a way that led them to believe you did.

Sorry. Moral theology is a little bit more complex than you make it out to be.

 

[Katholish]

Actually, the moral theology is that simple. You are introducing something that I did not address. It is true that some people do not have a right to certain information, such as a Nazi officer in this case, however, that does not permit a person to lie. Mental Reservation, which is what you are referring to, is a slightly different matter which I did not address. My statement is nevertheless true, all lies are bad and are by nature sinful.

 

[Maccabees]

Well if its that simple why are lies permitted again and again in the Old Testament?

Rahab the harlot lied to the king of Jericho who were looking to capture the Jewish spies and kill them. Rahab much like the scenario of Nazis and Christians who hid Jews lied to the king and hid them. Her reward was that she and her household were spared when the Israelites took the city. Had she told the truth you don’t have to be a theologian to figure out she and her household would not have been spared.
You talk in theological supositions but the Bible has clearly demonstrated that lieing is permitted to save the righteous.
It is amazing Rahab saved the Jews by lying just as Christians did in World War 2 when the Nazis sought out the Jews like King of Jericho yet that means nothing to you. No wonder protestants don’t respect catholics some are in their our theological high tower deny what the Bible has clearly answered for us. This is legalism tthat Catholics are often accused of and this case you are guilty of.
I doubt if any catholics are burning in hell or purgatory right now for lieing to the Nazis to save the lives of the Jews.
In your sick world they are being punished for lieing which you can’t do for any reason whatsoever.

In a court of law lying under duress in not punishable nor is a contract enforceable if agreed to under duress. If secular judgement is that merciful how much more so is our loving and all merciful God?
You have made God into a legalistic tyrant and Jesus is nothing of the sort.

 

[JLove]

Are all lies bad?

I think others have made it clear that from biblical examples that all lies are not always bad (dare I say sinful).

My view coming from a slightly different direction.

Looking at the Ten Commandments we have all the “Thou Shall Not’s.” One thing I found interesting is that Ex. 20:16 where we get thou shalt not lie says that, ‘that shall not lie TO YOUR NEIGHBOR.’ (my paraphrase) It does not say “thou shalt not lie” like the others before. I would suggest that fibbing to “enemies” is permitted. I think this is crucial. Also, I think this is made evident with all the other examples given.

Just my thoughts

 

[JimG]

So the Nazi officer comes to your door and asks, “Do you have any Jews here?” “No,” you reply, thereby saving those you are hiding from the death camps. So you have lied, hmm?

Suppose the Nazi officer comes to your door and says, “Do you have anyone here who should be sent to the death camps?” (which is what the first question really means.)

“No,” you answer, truthfully, since in your judgment no one should be sent to the death camps.

To me, the two cases are morally equivalent.

The Nazi definition of “Jew” is “one who must be sent to the death camps.”

Since you know his definition, you can truthfully say, “No, there are no Jews here.”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

djrakowski:

My wife and I have been studying to determine if we should convert to Catholicism. She recently came across an article from a Protestant apologetics organization that makes the following assertion: that somewhere in the apocrypha, there’s an account of God assisting someone in a lie. Unfortunately, there’s no citation for this assertion. Can anyone help me either confirm or refute it?

Try this ​

Tobit 5 piney.com/ApocTobit.html

1 - Then Tobias answered him, "Father, I will do everything that you have commanded me;

2 - but how can I obtain the money when I do not know the man?"

3 - Then Tobit gave him the receipt, and said to him, “Find a man to go with you and I will pay him wages as long as I live; and go and get the money.”

4 - So he went to look for a man; and he found Raphael, who was an angel,

5 - but Tobias did not know it. Tobias said to him, “Can you go with me to Rages in Media? Are you acquainted with that region?”

6 - The angel replied, “I will go with you; I am familiar with the way, and I have stayed with our brother Gabael.”

7 - Then Tobias said to him, “Wait for me, and I shall tell my father.”

8 - And he said to him, “Go, and do not delay.” So he went in and said to his father, “I have found some one to go with me.” He said, “Call him to me, so that I may learn to what tribe he belongs, and whether he is a reliable man to go with you.”

9 - So Tobias invited him in; he entered and they greeted each other.

10 - Then Tobit said to him, "My brother, to what tribe and family do you belong? Tell me. "

11 - But he answered, “Are you looking for a tribe and a family or for a man whom you will pay to go with your son?” And Tobit said to him, “I should like to know, my brother, your people and your name.”

12 - He replied, “I am Azarias the son of the great Ananias, one of your relatives.”…

I think this is what was meant. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maccabees:

The Lord works in mystererious ways he commanded Abraham to kill his own son! Protestants are no shocked by this but gee a white law hey that can’t be scripture of course the Israelistes where hidden err lying by Rahab a prostitute. Moses sister was err lying when she preteneded she didn’t know who Moses was and of course Moses mohter was err lying to not admitting that was her son.

Scripture does not praise the lie, but records it. Many things done even by men dear to God - David’s adultery, Abraham and Isaac’s lies, Jacob’s deceit, the denials by Peter, and so on - are mentioned without praise, or are condemned as wicked, or are merely recorded.​

And many things may have been allowable or pardonable, which Christ no longer allowed - so we cannot do them, even if others did, or were allowed to. Other things, are someof them hard to judge - because we can’t apply the standard of Christ as experienced today to 3000 years ago. It’s possible that what seems like a lie to a Western Christian, would be an unblameworthy fashion of speech to someone in the Ancient Near East. But when a wrong is indeed committed, and condemned or not praised, we cannot emulate it. ##

[snip]Try this one Lot offered his daughters to be raped and God was not mad at him. He later was seduced by his daughters and they were impregnanted by their father yet God did not curse them or their actions. That’s weird isn’t it? But hey a lie that can’t be.

Nor was it praised. It’s quite possible that the episode is a piece of anti-Ammonite propaganda - Jewish slander of an enemy. There is nothing in the Bible or the nature of the Biblical books to rule this out without further consideration, AFAIK. A book which contains lies can perfectly well contain slander.​

OF course Jacob got the covenant of his father Issac by of all things lying to him! You mean God rewards a convenant to a liar. All of Israel is founded on the lie of Jacob pretending to be Esau thus taking the birthrite of the firstbron Essau… OF course the Protestant has no problem with this lie does he? Kinda inconsistent to say the least!

The devil “is the father of lies” according to Our Lord (John 8.44).​

The CCC condemns them without reservation - which is the position of St. Augustine, John Wesley, and Kant too. A lie is a sin by being a lie. One might as well speak of pious blasphemy or loving murder; an evil-free lie is a contradiction in terms; an obscenity and a perversion. We cannot use the devil’s means to do the work of Christ.

See the rest here…

[2482](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2482.htm’) “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

[2484](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2484.htm’) The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

[2485](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2485.htm’) By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

[2486](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2486.htm’) Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships. ##

 

[Maccabees]

Gottle have you totally missed the point of discussion here that there are all sorts of lies in the OT and the allusion to a lie in Tobit does not disqualify it as scripture. Your post does not address this. OF course lying in general is not a good thing. But in certain circumstances it has been permittede and rewarded in scripture yes the NT does mention Rahab for being rewarded for her lie. Sorry there are exceptions to the rule. Stop being the legalist here.
Our Current Pope lied to the Nazis about the whereabout of his Jewish friends was he wrong in doing so?
ANd Pope Pius the XII was deceitful in hiding Jews in the Vatican soe are these men punished for thier lies.
Boy I would hate to have you as friend and you and your hangup about lies where the only thing between me and a concentration camp.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maccabees:

Gottle have you totally missed the point of discussion here that there are all sorts of lies in the OT and the allusion to a lie in Tobit does not disqualify it as scripture. Your post does not address this.

I posted an entire passage from Tobit which I thought might be the one intended. That was all my intention - to answer the questioner. I had forgetten the lie in Judith.​

OF course lying in general is not a good thing. But in certain circumstances it has been permittede

Lying is a sin, full stop. At least according to the CCC - I posted the passage, and a link.​

and rewarded in scripture yes the NT does mention Rahab for being rewarded for her lie. Sorry there are exceptions to the rule. Stop being the legalist here.

I’m in very good company - I have not only St. Augustine on my side, but the present Catechism. As for Rahab:​

• Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
• James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

• where is there a reward to her for lying ? The reference to “works” by James does not say that; if that’s what you had in mind. ##

Our Current Pope lied to the Nazis about the whereabout of his Jewish friends was he wrong in doing so?

It does not matter whom you mention - lying is still a sin, always. That is what the CCC says. Which is why a link was given. Of course, if you are suggesting one should ignore Catholic teaching… If Popes lie, it does not matter whether they are saints or not, which the present Pope has yet to be recognised as for sure - a sin by a saint is still a sin.​

And Pope Pius the XII was deceitful in hiding Jews in the Vatican soe are these men punished for thier lies.
Boy I would hate to have you as friend and you and your hangup about lies where the only thing between me and a concentration camp.

Then it is just as well that for us at least that is purely hypothetical. A lie is never under any circumstances whatever of any kind allowable. God Himself could not make it so.​

What is allowable, is a mental reservation - but the greatest care has to be used to make sure that these are not lies under a different name. The section to the Catechism which has been linked to includes a fairly full treatment of them. (Which ought to solve the two posers about those two Popes BTW) It does not follow that because a mental reservation is allowed, that it is desirable - in fact, the fewer there are of them, the better. For even the least departure from perfect truthfulness - and how many of us have been granted that ? - has a nasty way of leading to great falsehoods. So there is nothing whatever to be said in favour of being untruthful; if God not does lie, how can we ? How can we use our hearts & minds to praise God, and to lire to men whom God has made in His image ? Look at it that way.

Or if that is not enough: It is said of St. Philip Neri: “As for liars, he could not abide them”. And liars are outside the heavenly Jerusalem, in the book of Revelation.

Pro 12:22 Lying lips [are] abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly [are] his delight.

In the light of John 8.44, I don’t think that has changed ##

 

[BibleReader]

In the beginning of Exodus, the Hebrew midwives lie through their teeth to pharaoh to save the lives of Hebrew babies. God rewards them. Exodus 1:15-21.

Are you going to give up Christianity altogether because even the Pentateuch does this?

We live in a complex world. Sometimes it is a sin to not lie.

Re the Deuterocanonicals, which you call the “Apocrypha,” be aware that Christ himself paraphrases both Sirach and Wisdom repeatedly.