A protestant former pastor friend, saved?

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We have a good friend who is a former protestant pastor. he is a really kind man, and he is elderly. his love for Jesus is astounding to say the least. it really is. he volunteers endless hours at a local charity run by churches. he helps out the poor, he offers financial aid to those in desperate need, and he gets it back. this man lives and breathes for Jesus.

now, my question is this, will he be saved when he dies? he has a super heart, and he is just a lovely person. but, he is not Catholic.
Pope Innocent III stated that outside the Catholic Church their is no salvation, correct? or has that changed?

does this former pastor have to be a Catholic to be saved? Yes, we know that the judgment is up to Jesus. But since his love for God is pretty immense, is that enough to save him? he does not believe what the Catholic Church teaches to be true.

Never the less, he loves Christ very much, we know him well enough that this is true. Is this enough to save him? the Bible says, that faith without works is dead.

Does this mean to say that if he is not a Catholic he wont be saved? because he does not have our faith, and he does not practice it, so in effect, that scripture could point to him could it not? no faith, no works. but his faith is different.

What is the exact position of the Church on matters like this?
 
TraditionalCath said:
We have a good friend who is a former protestant pastor. he is a really kind man, and he is elderly. his love for Jesus is astounding to say the least. it really is. he volunteers endless hours at a local charity run by churches. he helps out the poor, he offers financial aid to those in desperate need, and he gets it back. this man lives and breathes for Jesus.

now, my question is this, will he be saved when he dies? he has a super heart, and he is just a lovely person. but, he is not Catholic.
Pope Innocent III stated that outside the Catholic Church their is no salvation, correct? or has that changed?

does this former pastor have to be a Catholic to be saved? Yes, we know that the judgment is up to Jesus. But since his love for God is pretty immense, is that enough to save him? he does not believe what the Catholic Church teaches to be true.

Never the less, he loves Christ very much, we know him well enough that this is true. Is this enough to save him? the Bible says, that faith without works is dead.

Does this mean to say that if he is not a Catholic he wont be saved? because he does not have our faith, and he does not practice it, so in effect, that scripture could point to him could it not? no faith, no works. but his faith is different.

What is the exact position of the Church on matters like this?
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With God having the final say in everyone’s salvation, let us look at the church’s position…

From the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium:
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2CHURCH.HTM
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
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If what you say is true, the man is assured of heaven, according to the Catholic Church.

Subrosa
 
We cannot tell or judge that he will go to hell so it is all up to God not up to us.

If he does have an open heart and mind for Jesus then there is a chance he will be saved by accepting what the Catholic Church teaches, which is the reality of God’s truth in heaven. God always gives chances to those of good will.

Does he recognize Jesus present in the Eucharist? Jesus said that his followers would acknowlege Him before men. So does this man acknowledge the presence of Jesus in the Eucharist?

This doesn’t exclude him from Salvation, unless he rejects the very same Jesus up until the time of his judgement. I believe those who are sincere will have the truth revealed to them and they will have a chance to accept it as God is infinitely merciful.

Now if they obstinantly persist until their judgement then they wont acknowledge Jesus even when they are face to face with Him at their judgement. It is pretty hard to change your mind if it is so set in it’s ways, so pray for him.
Humility is changing yourself to reality and changing to revealed reality.

If this guy is truly sincere, just pray for him and keep being a good witness to Jesus and keep inviting Him to get closer to Jesus.

In Christ,
Scylla

The only way of salvation is through Jesus and all people will be Catholic in heaven, or else truth doesn’t matter.
 
Of course he will. What does the catholic faith base their religion on? Isn’t it the teachings of the apostles…the Holy Bible? So lets read what the bible says about salvation:

9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
romans 10:9-13

“8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
ephesians 2:8-10

If anyone comes to God and puts their trust in him, they are saved. If they don’t, they aren’t. Bottom line.
 
otakemyhandlove said:
Of course he will. What does the catholic faith base their religion on? Isn’t it the teachings of the apostles…the Holy Bible? So lets read what the bible says about salvation:

9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
romans 10:9-13

“8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
ephesians 2:8-10

If anyone comes to God and puts their trust in him, they are saved. If they don’t, they aren’t. Bottom line.
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Now that you’ve quoted Paul as the ultimate authority, why don’t you go back to the Bible and read what Jesus had to say about salvation. In my religion, Paul doesn’t trump Jesus as he apparently does in yours. Start with Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31. The man described in the OP is doing exactly what Jesus said was necessary, your misinterpretation of Paul’s letters notwithstanding.
 
It is true that outside the Church there is no salvation, but you are not able to judge whether or not certain souls are united to her in a mystical way–such as to the soul of the Church.

If he is either Baptized or has at least an implicit desire for it and if he is not at fault for rejecting the Church, then he may still be saved.
 
Judgment is up to God alone. It is not our place to say or not say who may or may not enter Heaven.
 
QUOTE scylla
“If this guy is truly sincere, just pray for him and keep being a good witness to Jesus and keep inviting Him to get closer to Jesus.”

Why wouldn’t he be sincere? :confused: I’ve known him for 4 years! He is a wonderful person, and he was a pastor for many many decades, so how can he not be sincere??? if you knew him you wouldn’t even wonder. but since you don’t, you’ll have to take my word for it. hard to do when you don’t know me either.

Semper, your absolutely correct!
 
geezerbob said:
Now that you’ve quoted Paul as the ultimate authority, why don’t you go back to the Bible and read what Jesus had to say about salvation. In my religion, Paul doesn’t trump Jesus as he apparently does in yours. Start with Matthew 25, beginning at verse 31. The man described in the OP is doing exactly what Jesus said was necessary, your misinterpretation of Paul’s letters notwithstanding.
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Jesus also said that all one needs to do is believe, John 3: 14 - 18. This mans works were because of his love for God who first love him. His works played no part in his salvation.
 
allischalmers said:
Jesus also said that all one needs to do is believe, John 3: 14 - 18. This mans works were because of his love for God who first love him. His works played no part in his salvation.
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Jesus does not say that “works play no part.” They ARE part of faith. James 2:22 says that faith is COMPLETED by works.

You may not be saved BY your works, but you ain’t gonna be saved without 'em! In Mt. 25, Jesus doesn’t even mention “faith.” All he mentions is acts of love. To my mind this tends to affirm the position of the Church that many are “in” her (i.e., in Christ) who may not even know it – not fully nor perfectly, not in a Gospel way, but in the love of God nevertheless. Augustine says: “Faith takes its name from man’s deed agreeing with his word.”

If you do a word search for “faith” in the OT, you come up with the suprising discovery that there are only two places where “faith” means assent to a belief. Everywhere else “faith,” “faithful,” “faithfulness” refer most of the time to God himself and to his own fidelity to his people and to his own promises. The concept of “faith” is about keeping your word.

Where do we change over completely to the idea that true faith is void of demonstration?

So for the pastor friend: is he saved? Only God knows. But I’m full of hope. He is my brother in Christ.
 
TraditionalCath said:
We have a good friend who is a former protestant pastor. he is a really kind man, and he is elderly. his love for Jesus is astounding to say the least. it really is. he volunteers endless hours at a local charity run by churches. he helps out the poor, he offers financial aid to those in desperate need, and he gets it back. this man lives and breathes for Jesus.

now, my question is this, will he be saved when he dies? he has a super heart, and he is just a lovely person. but, he is not Catholic.
Pope Innocent III stated that outside the Catholic Church their is no salvation, correct? or has that changed?

does this former pastor have to be a Catholic to be saved? Yes, we know that the judgment is up to Jesus. But since his love for God is pretty immense, is that enough to save him? he does not believe what the Catholic Church teaches to be true.

Never the less, he loves Christ very much, we know him well enough that this is true. Is this enough to save him? the Bible says, that faith without works is dead.

Does this mean to say that if he is not a Catholic he wont be saved? because he does not have our faith, and he does not practice it, so in effect, that scripture could point to him could it not? no faith, no works. but his faith is different.

What is the exact position of the Church on matters like this?
Click to expand...
According to the Catechism, he is Catholic, but imperfectly so. Anyone who is a validly baptized Christian is part of the Catholic Church, whether they like it or not. 😉
#819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”
Click to expand...
 
mercygate said:
Jesus does not say that “works play no part.” They ARE part of faith. James 2:22 says that faith is COMPLETED by works.

You may not be saved BY your works, but you ain’t gonna be saved without 'em! In Mt. 25, Jesus doesn’t even mention “faith.” All he mentions is acts of love. To my mind this tends to affirm the position of the Church that many are “in” her (i.e., in Christ) who may not even know it – not fully nor perfectly, not in a Gospel way, but in the love of God nevertheless. Augustine says: “Faith takes its name from man’s deed agreeing with his word.”

If you do a word search for “faith” in the OT, you come up with the suprising discovery that there are only two places where “faith” means assent to a belief. Everywhere else “faith,” “faithful,” “faithfulness” refer most of the time to God himself and to his own fidelity to his people and to his own promises. The concept of “faith” is about keeping your word.

Where do we change over completely to the idea that true faith is void of demonstration?

So for the pastor friend: is he saved? Only God knows. But I’m full of hope. He is my brother in Christ.
Click to expand...
AMEN!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif
 
Acts 13:39 “And by him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justifed from all things, from which ye could not be justifed by the law of Moses.”

Romans 4:5 “but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness’”

The word counted mean imputed to him

Your works are the results of salvation not the cause of your salvation
 
allischalmers said:
Acts 13:39 “And by him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justifed from all things, from which ye could not be justifed by the law of Moses.”

Romans 4:5 “but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness’”

The word counted mean imputed to him

Your works are the results of salvation not the cause of your salvation
Click to expand...
So how do you explain all the good works done by people who have never accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
 
allischalmers said:
Acts 13:39 “And by him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justifed from all things, from which ye could not be justifed by the law of Moses.”

Romans 4:5 “but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness’”

The word counted mean imputed to him

Your works are the results of salvation not the cause of your salvation
Click to expand...
Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:12%20-%2016;&version=50;
 
allischalmers said:
Acts 13:39 “And by him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justifed from all things, from which ye could not be justifed by the law of Moses.”

Romans 4:5 “but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness’”

The word counted mean imputed to him

Your works are the results of salvation not the cause of your salvation
Click to expand...
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%202:12%20-%2016;&version=50;

Romans 2:12 - 16

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
 
**Mark 10:17-31 **

17 And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother.

20 And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth.

21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

22 But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?

27 Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.

28 Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

29 Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake,

30 but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2010:17-31;&version=8;

(Ain’t no faith alone here)
 
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