A protestant seeking

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Scott Hahn has written an excellent book about Mary called “Hail, Holy Queen”

My favorite is St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Devotion to Mary”. This book uses very forceful language and if you read it you will see clearly why some people are so afraid of the Catholic Church’s relationship with Mary. However, St. de Montfort does confront all the sensitive issues admirably, he was well aware of the accusations of idolatry and deification.
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cosmicjiujitsu:
okay another thought, i guess this will come as i read more… the material is piling up… why should i become catholic? aren’t i already in?
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Do you believe that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist?

This is an important issue, because if He is, then to call Him a ‘symbol’ is blasphemy. If he isn’t, then to call that piece of bread ‘God’ is idolatry.

If you are not attending mass and the real presence of Christ, then you are most definitely not ‘already in’. I have family members and friends (Catholics even) who attend protestant churches because of the ‘greater sense of community’. In the Catholic Church, we believe that we are in Christ’s personal company when we are in the presence of the Eucharist. It is something so wonderful and miraculous that we would rather spend an hour alone with Him on Sunday than one away from Him and with all of our friends.

Another issue is morals. I am a fairly recent convert (2 years) and if you are like me, you have come to realize that to sin is to turn away from God, and that there can be no greater loss, no greater injustice than that. You may find one church that teaches contraception is okay and one that teaches that it is a sin, even within the same denomination. Who is right? Who even has the authority to determine what is a sin? You have to find the true Church, the one that God has given teaching authority to, if you want to follow Jesus in the way He intended.

I hope this helps and I will pray for you (to Mary, by the way.)
 
Mason(name removed by moderator)my:
I found this not to be true in the local Catholic Church in my area. I was not allowed to continue because I had no intention of joing the Catholic Church - I simply wanted to know what the RCC believes so I went to the source.

I was not allowed to continue.
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We you being as antaganist and disruptive as been on the forum. Were you trying to evangelize us poor unsaved Catholics, or were you truly seeking to learn.
 
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heliumspark:
This is an important issue, because if He is, then to call Him a ‘symbol’ is blasphemy. If he isn’t, then to call that piece of bread ‘God’ is idolatry.
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I don’t find either of these statements convincing. The Eucharist is a mystery. No human explanation can adequately describe it. Error on such a point is not blasphemy or idolatry, but simply error. Not such a great matter as you would have it.

Edwin
 
Dear Contarini,

I see the issue this way, thru the principle of non-
contradiction:

“A thing cannot be X and not-X at the same time.”

The Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ OR
the Eucharist is not the Body and Blood of Christ.

I truly could understand an individual believing
X or not-X. What I can"t understand, in all sincerity,
is the view that this is not a matter of import.

BTW, I do agree with you that it would constitue
error, not blasphemy.
I’d reserve desecration of the Host, believing that
is was the Body and Blood, to the realm of sacrilige.

Am I correct in understanding what you are saying?
If not, I’d really appreciate understanding correctly
what you are saying.

Thanks,
reen12
 
Well, if you agree with me on the blasphemy issue, the other half is surely easier. As Dr. Johnson pointed out, Catholics believe (on the words of Jesus Himself) that they are worshipping Jesus. It’s not at all like the golden calf or other instances of people worshipping an idol. Jesus said “This is my Body.” Taking HIs worlds literally may be wrong but cannot be idolatrous.

I’m not denying the law of noncontradiction. But that law is not violated by saying that there are different senses in which one can say “the Host is the Body of Christ.” The statement may be true or false depending on exactly what you mean by it. St. Thomas Aquinas’s view, for instance, is rather different from what you normally get from Catholic apologists (I don’t see how it could possibly be called a fully “literal” view).

In Christ,

Edwin
 
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JGC:
…Want to know what the Church believes?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church…
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Don’t just read the Catechism, study it. When it gives a reference look them up and study them all to see where the Catechism came from. Learn where the Protestants strayed away from what Christ taught or have had to continually reinvent the wheel with each new preacher.

The Catechism is wonderfull but when you study the references you gain an insight into the Catholic Church, Christs body, that is absolutly a joy to your heart and your Faith in God. You will see the 2,000 years of theology in the Catechism that has had numerous theologians bringing it to us today. Most Baptist churches have no more theological years of insight then the age of their current preacher as comparison.

The Catholic Church is 2,000 years old and has 2,000 years of experience to build upon. Compare that to any Protestant church.

Lift the scalls off your eyes and ‘see’ what Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible and the Catechism.
 
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cosmicjiujitsu:
thanks for the great replies…

re: (seeming diafication of mary… btw, forgive me if i keep misspelling the word). i have concluded that if there is a mis-placed emphasis, it isn’t a result of the Church’s teaching… and i understand asking saints to pray for you… the argument is the body of christ can’t be put assunder and so asking a saint to pray for you is no different than asking my godly friend to pray for me now.
i really don’t have a problem with it… many protestants would… but i don’t. i jut haven’t experienced enteracting with saints that has been very profound.
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It is not a requirement that Catholics ask saints to pray for them. I’m a fairly new Catholic, and I have not felt inclined to ask them to pray for me–not even Mary, although I’m comfortable with the portions of liturgy in which we ask for her prayer. Perhaps it is because I do not “know” the saints very well. I wouldn’t ask a stranger to pray for me. I’ve heard that through reading about a saint’s life, a Catholic may indentify particularly with that person and be inclined to request prayer from the saint. But don’t worry that you do not have a profound urge to ask any of them for prayer. That may come eventually. If not, that’s okay, too.
my stuggles with mary are more along the lines of immaculate conception, and no kids after jesus.
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Regarding Mary’s perpetual virginity, why did Jesus ask John to care for his mother just before His death? Joseph had apparently passed away, and Mary, a widow, needed to be supported somehow. Why not Jesus’ halfbrother, James? There is no other reasonable explanation except that James was not Mary’s son. He was Joseph’s son from a previous marriage or Joseph’s nephew. Mary did not have any other blood relatives to support her, so Jesus needed to find someone to take care of her after He died. Who better than the disciple that Jesus was closest with? Tradition tells us that Mary had taken a vow of celibacy when she was young. Her marriage to Joseph, an older widower, was actually arrangement of guardianship.
also i am a bit disturbed by the co-redemer language surrounding the blessed mother. perhaps i just need to understand the arguement better.
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Perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Mary is NOT considered a co-redemer. She is often referred to as Coredemtrix, which means “woman with the redeemer.” It simply acknowledges her cooperation with God in the big picture of Christ being Redeemer. The title Coredemptrix is not defined as an article of faith and Catholics are not required to refer to Mary as such.
okay another thought, i guess this will come as i read more… the material is piling up… why should i become catholic? aren’t i already in? i see the fruit of the spirit in my life, i have had a genuine conversion experience where i once lived one way but now i live another. i interact with God, hear His voice… etc. why change rooms in the house? (i am a bit optimistic in that i see devoted protestants, catholics, and orthodox all part of the Body). that is my burning question… but that is why i am on the quest i suppose.
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As you learn more, you’ll discover that it is God’s plan and will for us to participate in the sacraments. They are the normative means of receiving God’s blessings. He is certainly not limited to them, but they are the normal means that we experience His grace. In particular, Protestant churches do not have Christ’s real presence in the bread and wine of the Eucharist. I recommend a great book that describes this more: This is My Body, by Mark Shea.

I also highly encourage you to study church history. Read Eusubius’ History of the Church. Read other early church fathers. You’ll find that the early church closely following the church we see in the book of Acts looks very Catholic. I became a Catholic because it most closely resembles the early church. Protestant churches bear very little resemblance.

Blessings to you.
 
As I was going through the RCIA five years ago I had no attachments to Saints. Then my father in law from Quebec gave me a rosary that was given to him by his father that was given to his father by his grandfather. There is a small paper in the case that each has wrote the date on and who it is has been passed on to. I married my wife 25 years ago who is from Montreal and is Mohawk and French. As I was going through the RCIA in Utah I read a biography on a Saint who was from France and became a missionary to the Quebec area back in the 1600’s to help convert the Native Indians to Christ. After I read this Biography I realized who it was that had helped in my conversion, the one who brought my wife’s family to Christ 400 years ago. I am not kidding, I fell to my knees with many tears and gave him thanks for his sacrafice that moves on today. It was a powerful few moments and he remains in me to this day. If you have the time I would highly suggest you read this Story. If you know of any Mormons please pass it on to them. Why? Because it is a real story about how the Gospel has been spread to the Americas. One that is very much documented unlike any story they may have, or have ever read. I was once Mormon. This Catholic Saint helped me find Christ. He helped pierce my heart for Christ!

www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html
 
again… thanks all… i am compiling a list of books and reading through the sites.

i am trying to be as open and honest on the journey as i can. perhaps i am “not in” as heliumspark suggests. perhaps all of my spiritual experiences… conversion, spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecy, other charisms) have all been mistaken (and i am not being sarcastic here).

but i am on the journey and i am excited to see where it goes… i continue to welcome the replies and discussion here or via E-mail: cosmicjiujitsu@yahoo.com

blessings,
j.b.
 
i am trying to be as open and honest on the journey as i can. perhaps i am “not in” as heliumspark suggests. perhaps all of my spiritual experiences… conversion, spiritual gifts (tongues, prophecy, other charisms) have all been mistaken (and i am not being sarcastic here).
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Certainly you can’t believe your experiences have been mistaken?
And I don’t think the catholics here would suggest that.

God places us all on a different road.
I think the point being made here is…Where do all these roads lead to?
 
Cosmic, there are thousands of Catholic Charismatics who beleive the same as yourself regarding the gifts of the Spirit, (toungues, prophecy, healing).

So would not say that could be a big difference. The thing is you have come across a very conservative Catholic site, and many of the posters here do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit.

But there are many who do, many parishes do have Pentecostal prayer meetings and Masses.

ROBERTA A F ARE YOU OUT THERE SOMEWHERE?
 
Dear Contarini,

Thanks for giving me a more complete sense of your
position.

And we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on
the application of the law of Noncontradiction in this
specific instance.

To use the term “different senses” with regard to
the issue under discussion brings before me, at
least, the element of nuance. It’s a route that one
can use to claim that the law of Noncontradiction
is not being violated, but I can’t see my way clear
to agreeing that that is not the case in this instance.

Thanks again for your courtesy in more fully
conveying your position.

Every best wish,
reen12
 
Absalom!:
You don’t even have to read the deuterocanonical books (although I think they’re important) - just read the protestant canon if you like (but a decent translation, mind you, not The Message).
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I start from the Book of Wisdom, if I am starting from Scripture at all. However, the deposit of faith was not to Scripture; it was to the Church which is a community of persons. Finding a spiritual director, therefore, is a better idea.

Since we are talking about persons, it is very helpful to read the Church Fathers, the saints, and martyrs.
Absalom!:
I’ve found that most of the time, when I am discussing something like Purgatory, which has its basis partially in Macabees, that I don’t even bring up the deuterocanonical books at all. That doctrine can be defended from the protestant canon.
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Well, I think it is better to start from basics. The basics are the love of God for you. How do you respond to the love of God for you? How did the Church Fathers, saints, and martyrs respond to the love of God for them?
 
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cosmicjiujitsu:
ultimately it boils down to that if i became catholic… it would come at a high cost for me.
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Yep. As for Mary: relax. It just isn’t worship. Once you really understand the fear and trembling of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, you will totally understand the difference between veneration and worship.

Once you understand that the Guttenberg printing press wasn’t available until the time of the Reformation (convenient that), you will understand the personal nature of Catholic teaching. 90% of the Church was illiterate and, even if they were literate, they spent most of their time labouring and could not afford the time to read. Wisdom was inextricably linked to personal relationship and that to the Church. Did Jesus teach only to the literate? Or to those who could afford to read or who could afford a hand-copied Bible? Did Jesus establish his Church in Luther or in Peter?

Once you are able to put the Bible in context, you will understand the role of Sacred Art in Church teaching.

I advise starting with basics. Build on the basics. Every moment is a new life. Start at the beginning.
 
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boppysbud:
Cosmic, there are thousands of Catholic Charismatics who beleive the same as yourself regarding the gifts of the Spirit, (toungues, prophecy, healing).

So would not say that could be a big difference. The thing is you have come across a very conservative Catholic site, and many of the posters here do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit.

But there are many who do, many parishes do have Pentecostal prayer meetings and Masses.

ROBERTA A F ARE YOU OUT THERE SOMEWHERE?
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Conservative has nothing to do with Charismatic. Pope John Paul II fully endorsed the Charismative Renewal in the Catholic Church. Mass and the Eucharist in a Charismatic community is a quantum leap from a Pentecostal meeting. If a person is accustomed to the pentecostal experience, speaking in tongues and so on, then a Charismatic Catholic prayer group is an excellent place to start investigating Catholicism, although it may be somewhat humbling. Humble is good.

Conservative and Liberal are not Catholic terms. They are political terms. Orthodox and heterodox are Catholic terms.
 
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Contarini:
I don’t find either of these statements convincing. The Eucharist is a mystery. No human explanation can adequately describe it. Error on such a point is not blasphemy or idolatry, but simply error. Not such a great matter as you would have it.

Edwin
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John 6 and the Real Presence is advanced teaching. Someone considering entrance into Catholicism needs to start at the beginning with basic teaching. Basic teaching is the love of God for humankind.

John 6 specifically says that the bread is not a symbol. To understand Jesus’ teaching on the Body and Blood, one must understand metaphor, not symbol. In all the discussions I have read on this and other forums, no one has demonstrated an understanding of metaphor. So, once again, start at the beginning, not the end.

Referring to the recognition of the Real Presence in the Body and the Blood as idolatrous is not error; it is blasphemy.
 
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catholic-rcia:
As I was going through the RCIA in Utah I read a biography on a Saint who was from France and became a missionary to the Quebec area back in the 1600’s to help convert the Native Indians to Christ. After I read this Biography I realized who it was that had helped in my conversion, the one who brought my wife’s family to Christ 400 years ago.
[www.catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html](http://www.http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/cJouges_page.html)
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There is a link in that article to a site for Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha. She, I believe, is the Patroness for the Environment.
 
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petra:
It is not a requirement that Catholics ask saints to pray for them. I’m a fairly new Catholic, and I have not felt inclined to ask them to pray for me.
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It is deeply useful to study the lives of the saints. It is a humbling experience. Humility is good.

My experience of the Litany of the Saints is that we don’t call them, they call us. Again humility is good.
 
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