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CWBetts
Guest
Welcome to American Fundamentalism.
- Status
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RonTheNewJew
Guest
CWBetts: You can insult me all you want. But please leave off your insults to my country. I don’t know where you are from, but my country, America, is the main reason, with all of it’s recent internationally illegal wars (the one in Iraq, I mean), is still the main reason that some countries do not live under a Godless communist/fascist dictatorship. If you happen to live in one of those now free countries, you might do well to think long about what you just said about America.
Her heritage of religious freedom and diversity are the basis of her strength, here at home and, hopeully with some real fence-mending, around the world.
God bless you. I hope someday you see the personal strength that He placed inside you, such that insisting on other people, who do not agree with your religious tenets, somehow do not have the right to express their views in a public forum such as this, not only doesn’t affect them, but negatively affects you.
Ron
Her heritage of religious freedom and diversity are the basis of her strength, here at home and, hopeully with some real fence-mending, around the world.
God bless you. I hope someday you see the personal strength that He placed inside you, such that insisting on other people, who do not agree with your religious tenets, somehow do not have the right to express their views in a public forum such as this, not only doesn’t affect them, but negatively affects you.
Ron
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Stephentlig
Guest
You have absolutely no right to come in here and use the Bible that Catholics gave you in the attempt to disprove the one true religion with your heresy.
Your country?
whose country?her heritage of ‘‘religious freedom’’ and ‘‘diversity’’ is the basis of her downfall.
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CWBetts
Guest
I am an American thank you very much. I also am not so blind to recognize the faults of my own country. Slavery, subjugation of African-Americans during the Jim Crow era, rampant anti-Catholicism, genocide of indigenous peoples, unjust imperal wars, one after another. The Fundamentalist movement is a perversion of the Gospel of Christ that took root in the United States and the exporting of this man-made monstosity is thinly veiled imperalism. Contrast Fundamentaism, which claims that only fellow Fundamentalists are really Christian to Catholicism, which says anyone baptized in the Trinitarian formula is Christian by virtue of the baptism. My comment was not dorected towards the United Satates, but to those Fundamentalists churches that came into being on the United States that present a different Gospel than what is presented in the Scriptures, and that St. Paul condemns.
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davidv
Guest
Parents are parents of persons, not natures. It is not a valid question.
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RonTheNewJew
Guest
To David:
In Jesus Christ, divinity and humanity were mingled in an inexplicable way that we cannot understand. We can only know that this was made possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus was/is the Son of God. (Luke 1:35).
Humanity cannot be the progenitor of Divinity. God has ordained that every creature can only produce “after his kind.” (Genesis 1).
If you are like most people, you have two parents, each representing a particular family. Your mother carried the human genome from her birth family and contributed it to you. Your father carried the human genome from his birth family and contributed it to you. You are the combined product of two families. But your mother did not contribute the genetic material from your father’s family, nor vica versa. Thus, your mother is not the “mother” (the pregenitor) of your father’s genetic material.
Yes, Mary was the earthly parent of the man Jesus Christ. But she did not contribute to His divine nature. Joseph, the husband of Mary was also considered Jesus’ parent - in a legal, custodial way. Both Mary and Joseph were the legal guardians of Jesus’ during his childhood (Luke 2). But that did not make them divine, nor co-regents with Christ after His resurrection. Jesus is the Son of God because He shares God’s essential nature - we call this nature Divinity. Jesus is now Co-Regent with God the Father because that was His position long before the Incarnation - even from eternity. And Jesus very clearly taught that the Holy Spirit would be sent as His “Paraclete” (John 14:16-17; John 15:26; John 16:13-14) - His Vicar on earth, after His ascension. This bestowing of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples occurred in a mighty way on the day of Pentecost. We know the Scriptures were given through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the Holy Spirit will never teach us anything that opposes Scripture, for the Holy Spirit does not lie against Himself.
The way Catholics use the term “Mother of God” makes it sound like they believe that Mary is also divine, even equal with God. The use of the term makes it sound like Mary contributed to Jesus’ divinity. While Mary was “blessed” in being chosen to birth the Messiah, this did not make her co-equal with God. Her contribution to Jesus was the same as all earthly mothers - she contributed her human genome that resulted in Christ’s physical, human body of flesh and blood. But Jesus Christ is unique in that He had two natures, both human and divine. He is Immanuel - God with us! (Matthew 1:23). Only the One from heaven could provide the path back to heaven. Hallelujah!
This is from the Protestant viewpoint. I don’t expect you to agree with it!
Shalom in Yeshua!
In Jesus Christ, divinity and humanity were mingled in an inexplicable way that we cannot understand. We can only know that this was made possible through the power of the Holy Spirit, and that Jesus was/is the Son of God. (Luke 1:35).
Humanity cannot be the progenitor of Divinity. God has ordained that every creature can only produce “after his kind.” (Genesis 1).
If you are like most people, you have two parents, each representing a particular family. Your mother carried the human genome from her birth family and contributed it to you. Your father carried the human genome from his birth family and contributed it to you. You are the combined product of two families. But your mother did not contribute the genetic material from your father’s family, nor vica versa. Thus, your mother is not the “mother” (the pregenitor) of your father’s genetic material.
Yes, Mary was the earthly parent of the man Jesus Christ. But she did not contribute to His divine nature. Joseph, the husband of Mary was also considered Jesus’ parent - in a legal, custodial way. Both Mary and Joseph were the legal guardians of Jesus’ during his childhood (Luke 2). But that did not make them divine, nor co-regents with Christ after His resurrection. Jesus is the Son of God because He shares God’s essential nature - we call this nature Divinity. Jesus is now Co-Regent with God the Father because that was His position long before the Incarnation - even from eternity. And Jesus very clearly taught that the Holy Spirit would be sent as His “Paraclete” (John 14:16-17; John 15:26; John 16:13-14) - His Vicar on earth, after His ascension. This bestowing of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples occurred in a mighty way on the day of Pentecost. We know the Scriptures were given through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Therefore, the Holy Spirit will never teach us anything that opposes Scripture, for the Holy Spirit does not lie against Himself.
The way Catholics use the term “Mother of God” makes it sound like they believe that Mary is also divine, even equal with God. The use of the term makes it sound like Mary contributed to Jesus’ divinity. While Mary was “blessed” in being chosen to birth the Messiah, this did not make her co-equal with God. Her contribution to Jesus was the same as all earthly mothers - she contributed her human genome that resulted in Christ’s physical, human body of flesh and blood. But Jesus Christ is unique in that He had two natures, both human and divine. He is Immanuel - God with us! (Matthew 1:23). Only the One from heaven could provide the path back to heaven. Hallelujah!
This is from the Protestant viewpoint. I don’t expect you to agree with it!
Shalom in Yeshua!
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PJM
Guest
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RonTheNewJew
Guest
To PJM,
Acts 1:14 includes “Mary the mother of Jesus” as being among those awaiting “power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8). Here Mary is seen as a recipient of the graces of the Holy Spirit, not a dispensor of those graces.
There are many New Testament texts that discuss grace. None of these texts mention Mary as a dispensor of grace. Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is the distributor or dispensor of grace.
If Mary was to be an active link after the resurrection of Christ in the salvation process, why did she not ascend to heaven with Christ?
Since Mary clearly remained on earth for many years after Christ’s ascension, if she was to play a vital role in the salvation of the early church why did she not become the pope of the early church? At the Church Council held at Jerusalem about 48 AD, James is seen as the one who summarizes the discussion and appears as the leader of the group. (Acts 15:13).
More than one Catholic on this blog has asserted that the RCC was the entity that gathered the New Testament canon. If the RCC was “in charge” of the New Testament canon, why is there no mention in the approved New Testament scripture of this “vital” role of Mary?
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10). “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.” (John 15:10-11).
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (1 Corinthians 13:14).
Shalom in Yeshua!
- Mary contributed her human Jewish genome to produce the physical body of Jesus Christ, a body of flesh and bones that Jesus retained after the resurrection, although in a glorified state (Luke 24:39-43). Jesus’ resurrection was clearly a bodily resurrection, as ours will be at the Second Coming: “But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-23). “The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence.” (Psalm 115:17). Jesus was Divine God prior to the incarnation. (John 1:1-3). Jesus carried His own divinity into the incarnation (John 1:14). Mary contributed nothing to Christ’s divine nature. Jesus clearly posessed His Divinity prior to the incarnation: He was with God and was God from the beginning. Mary nurtured her Son Jesus Christ, and was His earthly parent during His human formative years on earth. Joseph also was Jesus’ parent during those years, in a parental, nurturing, legal and instructive sense. Jesus’ human nature was derived from Mary and her Jewish ancestors. This does not make all of Jesus’ Jewish ancestors “Parents of God” or progenitors of Jesus’ divine nature. They were progenitors of Jesus’ human nature.The best way to honor Mary’s faith, obedience, love and service is by practicing those virtues in our own lives, by the power of the Holy Spirit, as Mary did.
- “Grace” is a broad word that means several things. “Grace” has been defined as “unmerited favor” when referring to the salvation provided by Jesus Christ. God loved us before we even knew Him (John 3:16). Jesus provides both justification through His shed blood and sactification through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Peter preached, “By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. . . Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:10, 12).
Acts 1:14 includes “Mary the mother of Jesus” as being among those awaiting “power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8). Here Mary is seen as a recipient of the graces of the Holy Spirit, not a dispensor of those graces.
- “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5. There is only one Mediator, and Mary is not that Mediator - Jesus Christ is our only Mediator. “Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:14-16). We receive grace directly from Jesus Christ who stands before the throne of God, dispensing forgiveness, salvation and the gifts of grace through the power of the Holy Spirit.
There are many New Testament texts that discuss grace. None of these texts mention Mary as a dispensor of grace. Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit is the distributor or dispensor of grace.
If Mary was to be an active link after the resurrection of Christ in the salvation process, why did she not ascend to heaven with Christ?
Since Mary clearly remained on earth for many years after Christ’s ascension, if she was to play a vital role in the salvation of the early church why did she not become the pope of the early church? At the Church Council held at Jerusalem about 48 AD, James is seen as the one who summarizes the discussion and appears as the leader of the group. (Acts 15:13).
More than one Catholic on this blog has asserted that the RCC was the entity that gathered the New Testament canon. If the RCC was “in charge” of the New Testament canon, why is there no mention in the approved New Testament scripture of this “vital” role of Mary?
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10). “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.” (John 15:10-11).
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (1 Corinthians 13:14).
Shalom in Yeshua!
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CWBetts
Guest
The Short answer is that the Scriptures are not our sole rule of faith. I won’t go in to detail here because it is both off-topic and has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads.
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PJM
Guest
.[Nor are “graces” PJM]
Romans 12, Eph. 12 and 1 Cor. 12 all speak of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which are indeed " grace" which is a term that can be applied to every good thing from God.
However there are amany forms of “grace” that Come from God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, that are NOT dispensed by the Holy Spirit, and it is of these graces of which I speak. Some Sacramental grace for example and actual graces. Others such as Confirmation and Holy Orders do come through the Holy Spirit.
Certainly, Mary was completely human before being taken Body and Soul into heaven.She too was Redeemed by the merits of Jesus!
AGREED!
HS some, Mary some. Mary was still on earth for much of the writting of the NT.
Women could be neither priest, bishops or popes. Besides her role at the time was one of support and teaching.
Not so:
Acts 15:
6 "The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate,** Peter rose and said to them**, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus,** just as they will**.”
James as Bishop of Rome [Peter was already Supreme Pontiff] was confirming Peter’s decision.
Because Mary’s heavely role was yet unrevealed by God’s design.
Shalom in Yeshua!
Shalom!
Friend you are very well informed. I’m in total agreement with the top half of your post. ut to be clear, I did specify that Mary is not the source ot ogigin of Grace, only the dispenser of same.
God is the origin of all grace and God determines who is offered which graces, Mary is only the dispenser of these God given Graces.
Here is the position of the RCC from our most recent Catecheism
969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office **but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. [GRACE…PJM] ** Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
God bless you my friend,
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Stephentlig
Guest
**James 2:24 **
*“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” *
In addition to their belief in the Bible alone (“sola Scriptura”), most Protestants believe that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior in order to be justified by God (justification is the process by which man, moved by grace, turns toward God and away from sin, and accepts God’s forgiveness and righteousness). Thus, most Protestants believe that one is justified and saved by His faith in Christ alone (called “sola Fide” or Faith alone). But if this is true, then why does James say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?
James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone. In fact, the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24 where it says we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone. So the Bible never teaches anywhere that we are justified, saved, or anything else, by faith alone. While on its face the Catholic position seems obvious, the theology of faith and works in the matter of salvation is actually quite complicated, and has been one of the main sources of division between Catholicism and Protestantism. Hence, a couple of points should be made to address the controversy and clarify Catholic teaching.
First, Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ’s death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God’s divine life). But as a result of Christ’s death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God’s grace. Grace is God’s own divine life which He infuses into our souls. It is what Adam initially lost for us, and Christ won back for us. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the “faith” part). Non-Catholics generally stop here.
But God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the “works” part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the context of what we actually did during our earthly lives, and not how much faith we had (“whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me.” Matthew 25:40,45). When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did (“works”), whether righteous or evil. Matthew 25:31-46. In James 2:14-26, James is similarly instructing us to put our faith into action by performing good works, and not just giving an intellectual assent of faith. James says such “faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:17,26.
So we must do more than accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Even the demons believe Jesus is Savior, and yet “they tremble.” James 2:19. We must also do good works. Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us toward justification, but faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Faith and works acting together achieve our justification. Saint Paul says it best when he writes that we need “faith working in love.” Galatians 5:6. We are not justified and saved by faith alone.
Secondly, it is important to distinguish between the “works” James taught about in James 2:24 and the “works of the law” Saint Paul taught about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. Protestants generally confuse James’ “good works” from Paul’s “works of the law” when they attempt to prove that “works” are irrelevant to justification and salvation. The “works of the law” Paul taught about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere referred to the Mosaic law and their legal system that made God obligated to reward them for their works. They would thus “boast” about their works by attributing their works to themselves. Cf. Rom. 4:2; Eph. 2:9. Saint Paul taught that, with the coming of Christ, the Mosaic (moral, legal, and ceremonial) law which made God a debtor to us no longer justified a person. Instead, Paul taught that we are now justified and saved by grace (not legal obligation) through faith (not works of law). Eph. 2:5,8. Hence, we no longer “boast” by attributing our works to ourselves. We attribute them to God who gives everything to us freely by His grace.
Therefore, we are no longer required to fulfill the “works of law,” but to fulfill the “law of Christ” Gal. 6:2. This is why Paul writes that the “doers of the law (of Christ)” will be justified. Rom. 2:13. Of course, the “works of the law” Paul wrote about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10 and Eph. 2:8-9 have nothing to do with the “good works” James is teaching in James 2:24 or the “law” Paul is teaching about in Rom. 2:13 (because they are part of the same Word of God which can never contradict itself).
In summary, based on the Scriptures, the Church has taught for 2,000 years that we are justified and saved by the grace and mercy of Christ through both faith and works, and not faith alone. We are no longer in a legal system of debt where God owes us (creditor/debtor). We are now in a system of grace where God rewards our works when done with faith in Christ (Father/child). This also means that we must continue to exercise our faith and works to the end of our lives in order to be saved. This is why Jesus told us to “endure to the end” to be saved. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13. This is also why Saint Paul warned us that we could even lose our salvation if we did not persevere. cf. Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 9:27. This Catholic belief contradicts the novel Protestant notion of “once saved, always saved.”
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antonabe
Guest
Quote;Ron The Jew;
The way Catholics use the term “Mother of God” makes it sound like they believe that Mary is also divine, even equal with God. The use of the term makes it sound like Mary contributed to Jesus’ divinity. While Mary was “blessed” in being chosen to birth the Messiah, this did not make her co-equal with God. Her contribution to Jesus was the same as all earthly mothers - she contributed her human genome that resulted in Christ’s physical, human body of flesh and blood. But Jesus Christ is unique in that He had two natures, both human and divine. He is Immanuel - God with us! (Matthew 1:23). Only the One from heaven could provide the path back to heaven. HallelujahUnquote
Ron The Jew,there is no dispute that she is the Mother of God as she brought Jesus into this World in the literal sense but Catholics do not believe that she is Divine.This is unfortunately the misconception among Protestants.In fact because we believe that she was human she plays the role of an intercessor.As you say we cannot understand the total picture because we too are human and cannot completly comprehend the operations that take place by a Divine Hand.Jesus Christ was certainly human and Divine.
The way Catholics use the term “Mother of God” makes it sound like they believe that Mary is also divine, even equal with God. The use of the term makes it sound like Mary contributed to Jesus’ divinity. While Mary was “blessed” in being chosen to birth the Messiah, this did not make her co-equal with God. Her contribution to Jesus was the same as all earthly mothers - she contributed her human genome that resulted in Christ’s physical, human body of flesh and blood. But Jesus Christ is unique in that He had two natures, both human and divine. He is Immanuel - God with us! (Matthew 1:23). Only the One from heaven could provide the path back to heaven. HallelujahUnquote
Ron The Jew,there is no dispute that she is the Mother of God as she brought Jesus into this World in the literal sense but Catholics do not believe that she is Divine.This is unfortunately the misconception among Protestants.In fact because we believe that she was human she plays the role of an intercessor.As you say we cannot understand the total picture because we too are human and cannot completly comprehend the operations that take place by a Divine Hand.Jesus Christ was certainly human and Divine.
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golfjack
Guest
Yesterday, I heard that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit from a Catholic. If this is true, can anyone prove this by scripture?
Peace, Golfjack
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CWBetts
Guest
Why do we need to prove it by Scripture?
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PJM
Guest
This is a “common” understanding of a teaching that is not denied, HOWEVER it is neither Doctrinal, nor Dogmatic, and can be believed or denied at personal will.
Its foundation is from Luke Chapter 1 verses 26 -35, and specifically verse 35.
35 And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
Because of the direct intervention of Gof [The Holy Spirit] is the one who makes Jesus Present in the womb of the BVM, custom and ordinary thought may think of them “as married”, which of course is a physical impossibility as the HS is just that SPIRIT, while Mary is fleash and bones.
So this is but Theolgical Expression, that can be held or denined.
Love and prayer’s
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
To: PJM
The text is: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5.
Also: “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” 1 Corinthians 12:11. To dispense is “to give out, to distribute.” (Webster’s Dictionary). Thus “dispense” and “distribute” are synonyms. It is the Holy Spirit who dispenses all the graces such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues and the interpretation of tongues. (1 Corinth. 12).
To Stephentlig:
I agree with most of what you have written.
Jesus taught: “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5). “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.” (John 15:10-11).
Jesus taught that He is the root and stalk of God’s goodly plant. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” (John 15:1-2). Only as we are connected to Jesus, the vine, can we bear fruit. It is the root and stalk that nourish and produce the fruit, not the other way around. We must first be connected to Jesus, the vine, before we can bear fruit.
Jesus said, “Without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5). It is only after we have received Christ’s salvation by faith that we are enabled through the power of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit, or the works of loving service and obedience.
So what does James 2:24 mean?
First, we must not base a teaching on one phrase, especially one phrase that has been removed from its context. The entire verse is, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” James 2:24. James is clearly summarizing a teaching laid out in the prior part of the passage.
“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18). Here James teaches that faith comes first - works are the fruit of faith.
When the heavenly Father inspects the plant, He looks for fruit (works of loving service and obedience) as the evidence of faith. If no fruit is found, then it shows that our claims of faith are hollow - we have no living connection to Christ to produce fruit. We are no better off than the demons who “believe - and tremble!.” (James 2:19). The demons do not live a life of obedience to God because they have no living connection to Christ. They are in rebellion against God. They believe (know/acknowledge) the facts, but they have no “faith” - faith which is a living connection with Christ and which would produce obedience (good works of service and obedience) through the power of the Holy Spirit.
When we receive Christ’s salvation, He places His righteousness upon us so that we become acceptable to God. Through His shed blood we are justified, and through the power of the Holy Spirit we enter into sanctification which makes justification effective in our lives. Then when God looks for fruit (works of loving service and obedience) in our lives He finds this fruit as the evidence of justification at work in our lives. The fruit is the proof of the living connection with Christ the vine. The fruit is the proof of justification.
We are not saved by our works, not even by our obedience to God’s commandments. But we will not be saved if such obedience is not evident in our lives. God will not receive rebellious, disobedient sinners into heaven! But it is impossible to bear the fruits of obedience without first having a living connection to Christ the vine. “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13. Please read also verse 12. These verses go together. They do not contradict each other.
Shalom in Yeshua!
The text is: “For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” 1 Timothy 2:5.
Also: “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” 1 Corinthians 12:11. To dispense is “to give out, to distribute.” (Webster’s Dictionary). Thus “dispense” and “distribute” are synonyms. It is the Holy Spirit who dispenses all the graces such as wisdom, knowledge, faith, healings, miracles, prophecy, the discerning of spirits, tongues and the interpretation of tongues. (1 Corinth. 12).
To Stephentlig:
I agree with most of what you have written.
Jesus taught: “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in Him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5). “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.” (John 15:10-11).
Jesus taught that He is the root and stalk of God’s goodly plant. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” (John 15:1-2). Only as we are connected to Jesus, the vine, can we bear fruit. It is the root and stalk that nourish and produce the fruit, not the other way around. We must first be connected to Jesus, the vine, before we can bear fruit.
Jesus said, “Without Me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5). It is only after we have received Christ’s salvation by faith that we are enabled through the power of the Holy Spirit to produce fruit, or the works of loving service and obedience.
So what does James 2:24 mean?
First, we must not base a teaching on one phrase, especially one phrase that has been removed from its context. The entire verse is, “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” James 2:24. James is clearly summarizing a teaching laid out in the prior part of the passage.
“Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith, and I have works.’ Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18). Here James teaches that faith comes first - works are the fruit of faith.
When the heavenly Father inspects the plant, He looks for fruit (works of loving service and obedience) as the evidence of faith. If no fruit is found, then it shows that our claims of faith are hollow - we have no living connection to Christ to produce fruit. We are no better off than the demons who “believe - and tremble!.” (James 2:19). The demons do not live a life of obedience to God because they have no living connection to Christ. They are in rebellion against God. They believe (know/acknowledge) the facts, but they have no “faith” - faith which is a living connection with Christ and which would produce obedience (good works of service and obedience) through the power of the Holy Spirit.
When we receive Christ’s salvation, He places His righteousness upon us so that we become acceptable to God. Through His shed blood we are justified, and through the power of the Holy Spirit we enter into sanctification which makes justification effective in our lives. Then when God looks for fruit (works of loving service and obedience) in our lives He finds this fruit as the evidence of justification at work in our lives. The fruit is the proof of the living connection with Christ the vine. The fruit is the proof of justification.
We are not saved by our works, not even by our obedience to God’s commandments. But we will not be saved if such obedience is not evident in our lives. God will not receive rebellious, disobedient sinners into heaven! But it is impossible to bear the fruits of obedience without first having a living connection to Christ the vine. “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13. Please read also verse 12. These verses go together. They do not contradict each other.
Shalom in Yeshua!
J
JustaServant
Guest
thread interuption
Golfjack!
How have you been dude?
I haven’t been on Spero for a while, good to see you here.
Behave yourself.
end interuption
P
PJM
Guest
B
budgie2
Guest
I haven’t read the OP or all the thread. I think many protestants struggle with Mary as it is related to the human nature of Christ. In my opinion some protestants see Christ as spirit and struggle with the Incarnation and therefore do not like statues of Jesus and also do not believe that Christ is present in the flesh in the Eucharist. Christ got his humanity from Mary so if a person sees Christ as only spirit they will struggle with the role of Mary.
R
RonTheNewJew
Guest
To PJM:
The same author (the apostle Paul) who wrote Philippians 2:12 also wrote Phil. 2:13. Paul also wrote: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. This is in line with what Jesus taught in John 15, that our connection must be to Himself and then we will bear fruit (works of loving service and obedience).
The Bible teaches a unified message. Paul did not contradict Jesus Christ, nor did Paul teach one thing in one verse and the opposite in another verse. It is very clear from Scripture that our good works are the evidence that we have received Christ’s gift of salvation. The robe of Christ’s righteousness that justifies us also works in us through the power of the Holy Spirit to produce fruitful obedience (good works). “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10. Paul never supported willful disobedience. We are to choose to receive Christ’s righteousness and choose to be obedient to His will, His commandments as explained in the Moral Law. God looks for fruit in our lives as the evidence that salvation is effective in our lives. It is by the fruit (our obedient works) that we are judged.
So what does Philippians 2:12 mean? Here is the entire verse: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” The first thing we notice is that Paul is writing to converted believers who are obedient. He says they have always obeyed. Always? Clearly “always” began with the time they were converted and were first instructed. The phrase “work out” is from the Greek word katergazomai and means “to carry out to completion.” Paul is exhorting the Philippians to continue to live an obedient, Christian life. This verse is not to be seen as teaching the opposite of the next verse: “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13). In verse 13 Paul explains how it is possible to be obedient, as he has instructed in verse 12.
Referring to Matthew 25 and the two groups at the Second Coming of Christ: Again, it is the fruit that God looks for - the obedient good works that are the evidence that salvation has been effective in the life. Jesus taught this same teaching in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” [are law breakers]
Here people are denied entrance into the Kingdom, even though they have done good works: they have prophesied, cast out demons and done many wonders. But they have not obeyed God’s law. There are people who do good works - they look good on the outside - but they disobey the plain teachings of Scripture.
So do we obey God? Take a look at the Moral Law in Exodus 20, 21, 22, and 23. It starts with the Ten Commandments and continues on to the statutes and judgments. By these commandments we will be judged. Do we exalt God as our only Lord? Do we refuse to bow down to images? When we take the name of Christian, do we then live, talk, act and obey as Christians? Do we observe the seventh-day Sabbath as holy time? Do we honor our father and mother, and not only our specific fathers and mothers, but all the elderly and needy in our sphere of contact and influence? Do we refuse to murder others, including avoiding gossip that destroys reputation, anger that destroys relationships, or other acts that destoy the lives of other individuals? Do we refuse to commit adultry and fornication, even in our hearts and minds? Do we understand what belongs to us and what does not, and refuse to appropriate that which is not ours? Are we truthful, honest and transparent - can we be trusted - do we refuse to believe deceptions and lies? Do we refuse to covet what others have and learn to be content with what God has provided for us?
Remember, it was the pre-incarnate Christ who spoke the Moral law to the people and to Moses. These precepts lay out God’s law of love - they teach us what it means to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. These are as much Christ’s commandments as anything recorded in the Gospels. It seems we have plenty to work on to be obedient to Scripture without adding traditions that oppose Scripture.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” (John 14:6). Jesus HAS a way, a truth and a life - we must always be obedient, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to Jesus’ way, truth and life. Jesus’ way, truth and life are laid out in Scripture.
Shalom in Yeshua!
The same author (the apostle Paul) who wrote Philippians 2:12 also wrote Phil. 2:13. Paul also wrote: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8-9. This is in line with what Jesus taught in John 15, that our connection must be to Himself and then we will bear fruit (works of loving service and obedience).
The Bible teaches a unified message. Paul did not contradict Jesus Christ, nor did Paul teach one thing in one verse and the opposite in another verse. It is very clear from Scripture that our good works are the evidence that we have received Christ’s gift of salvation. The robe of Christ’s righteousness that justifies us also works in us through the power of the Holy Spirit to produce fruitful obedience (good works). “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10. Paul never supported willful disobedience. We are to choose to receive Christ’s righteousness and choose to be obedient to His will, His commandments as explained in the Moral Law. God looks for fruit in our lives as the evidence that salvation is effective in our lives. It is by the fruit (our obedient works) that we are judged.
So what does Philippians 2:12 mean? Here is the entire verse: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” The first thing we notice is that Paul is writing to converted believers who are obedient. He says they have always obeyed. Always? Clearly “always” began with the time they were converted and were first instructed. The phrase “work out” is from the Greek word katergazomai and means “to carry out to completion.” Paul is exhorting the Philippians to continue to live an obedient, Christian life. This verse is not to be seen as teaching the opposite of the next verse: “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Phil. 2:13). In verse 13 Paul explains how it is possible to be obedient, as he has instructed in verse 12.
Referring to Matthew 25 and the two groups at the Second Coming of Christ: Again, it is the fruit that God looks for - the obedient good works that are the evidence that salvation has been effective in the life. Jesus taught this same teaching in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” [are law breakers]
Here people are denied entrance into the Kingdom, even though they have done good works: they have prophesied, cast out demons and done many wonders. But they have not obeyed God’s law. There are people who do good works - they look good on the outside - but they disobey the plain teachings of Scripture.
So do we obey God? Take a look at the Moral Law in Exodus 20, 21, 22, and 23. It starts with the Ten Commandments and continues on to the statutes and judgments. By these commandments we will be judged. Do we exalt God as our only Lord? Do we refuse to bow down to images? When we take the name of Christian, do we then live, talk, act and obey as Christians? Do we observe the seventh-day Sabbath as holy time? Do we honor our father and mother, and not only our specific fathers and mothers, but all the elderly and needy in our sphere of contact and influence? Do we refuse to murder others, including avoiding gossip that destroys reputation, anger that destroys relationships, or other acts that destoy the lives of other individuals? Do we refuse to commit adultry and fornication, even in our hearts and minds? Do we understand what belongs to us and what does not, and refuse to appropriate that which is not ours? Are we truthful, honest and transparent - can we be trusted - do we refuse to believe deceptions and lies? Do we refuse to covet what others have and learn to be content with what God has provided for us?
Remember, it was the pre-incarnate Christ who spoke the Moral law to the people and to Moses. These precepts lay out God’s law of love - they teach us what it means to love God with all our heart, mind and soul, and our neighbor as ourselves. These are as much Christ’s commandments as anything recorded in the Gospels. It seems we have plenty to work on to be obedient to Scripture without adding traditions that oppose Scripture.
Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” (John 14:6). Jesus HAS a way, a truth and a life - we must always be obedient, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to Jesus’ way, truth and life. Jesus’ way, truth and life are laid out in Scripture.
Shalom in Yeshua!
- Status