A Purgatory Question

[MikiBee]

I hesitate to ask because I know people can think this question is argumentative, but it really is only a quest for truth.

I was just perusing the “Apologetics for the Masses” and got to the apologetics for Purgatory. In there John has these scriptures to back up purgatory, but I have questions:

2 Sam 12:13-18, “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick…On the seventh day the child died.”

Catholic Scriptural Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

-Okay, I don’t really know what to say about this one, but to me it doesn’t seem to indicate Purgatory as David was alive while he was punished.

Rev 21:27, “But nothing unclean shall enter it…” The New Jerusalem – Heaven.

Catholic Scriptural Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

-Doesn’t baptism remove our stain of sin?

Mt 5:48, “You, therefore, must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

That’s because of Principle #2 – nothing unclean will get into Heaven.

-Again, doesn’t my baptism make me “clean as snow?”

Heb 12:22-23, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem…and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…”

The spirits of just men, made perfect. Catholic Scriptural Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the “just” are “made perfect.”

Baptism again?

1 Cor 3:13-15, “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved. Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Couldn’t it be that this will all happen just as soon as we die during our Judgement?

Mt 12:32, “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Implies forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness. Catholic Scriptural Principle #4 – there is a place, or state of being, other than Heaven or Hell.

Couldn’t this be during our Judgment? This forum has stated many times that those who are not baptized, or those that don’t know Jesus will probably have some way to “choose” or to know Jesus at the moment of death.

If God is love and love keeps no records of wrong (1 Corinthians 13), then wouldn’t the logical conclusion be God keeps no records of wrong?

None of those passage state there is a “place” where people go to suffer for their sins. Couldn’t it be just God’s word alone could make us clean? God made the universe with his words, certainly He could make me clean with a word. Right?

 

[rocketrob]

MikiBee,
You have asked a lot of questions…most seem to be the result of an incomplete understanding of Catholic teaching. I’ll try to help with a few of them.

First, many of your questions are related to Baptism. Baptism does result in the removal of the stain of original sin (inherited from Adam & Eve) as well as personal sins committed up to the point of baptism. However, “…the grace of Baptism delivers no one from the all the weakness of nature. On the contrary, we must still combat the the movements of concupiscence [our fallen state] that never cease leading us into evil.” (CCC 978) As a result, we continue to sin even after Baptism, and the Sacrament of Penance, along with a possible process of Purgation, cleanse us of the effects of sin committed as our lives progress.

The process of Purgation is separate from God’s forgiveness of the eternal ramifications of our sins. It is a process, or state, of our imperfect (concupiscent) human nature being purified or perfected before entrance into God’s presence. This process is actually a manifestation of God’s love for us. Without Him providing this process by His grace, we would be consumed by God’s divine nature because nothing imperfect or sinful can exist in His presence. God loves us so much that he provided a means of salvation for us, through His Son, and a means of purification to us, so that we might be able to enjoy the Beatific Vision of God in all His glory for eternity.

Again, Purgatory is more of a process or state than it is a place. And this process can begin (and even be completed) on earth…through prayer, charitable works, redemptive suffering, or even loving discipline from God our Father.

In a very real sense you are correct when you assert that God can make you clean with His Word. But you have to remember that His Word is Jesus Christ…a suffering Word that paid the ultimate price for our sins, a Word that is a two-edged sword, and a Word that is a cleansing fire.

I recommend that you look up baptism and purgatory in your Catechism, and that you talk to your parish priest regarding your questions.

Sincerely,
rocketrob

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I hesitate to ask because I know people can think this question is argumentative, but it really is only a quest for truth.

2 Sam 12:13-18,
Catholic Scriptural Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

-Okay, I don’t really know what to say about this one, but to me it doesn’t seem to indicate Purgatory as David was alive while he was punished.

It shows that though God has forgiven, he is just and wants that “every farthing is paid”, (Matt 5:26).

Whatsoever you do to someone in evil you will have to repay in full, for whatsoever you do to the least of His brethren, you also do unto Him.

-Doesn’t baptism remove our stain of sin?

-Again, doesn’t my baptism make me “clean as snow?”

Baptism again?

Did you sin after you were baptized? Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin and cleans your soul of any stain of other venial or mortal sin. It does not keep you constantly cleansed. This idea of baptism coincides with “once saved, always saved”, which tends to believe that no matter what grave sin you commit, as long as you’ve been baptized, you’re pure as snow. This is entirely in error. If baptism forgave us everything, there would be no need for the Sacrament of Penance or The Blessed Sacrament.

1 Cor 3:13-15, “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved. Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

Couldn’t it be that this will all happen just as soon as we die during our Judgement?

Yeah, it does. It is in purgatory that we pay our time after judgement. There is a literal fire, ice, loss of God in purgatory, where you will be detained, according to your sins, for God’s Justice to be satisfied. It’s your just punishment after judgement.

Mt 12:32, “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

Implies forgiveness in the age to come. Where can you go to be forgiven in the age to come? Heaven? You don’t need forgiveness. Hell? There is no forgiveness. Catholic Scriptural Principle #4 – there is a place, or state of being, other than Heaven or Hell.

Couldn’t this be during our Judgment? This forum has stated many times that those who are not baptized, or those that don’t know Jesus will probably have some way to “choose” or to know Jesus at the moment of death.

No, God doesn’t just bring you up to His judgment seat and forgive you. You will go through your “prison” time for the injustices toward Him and your fellow human beings.

If God is love and love keeps no records of wrong (1 Corinthians 13), then wouldn’t the logical conclusion be God keeps no records of wrong?

None of those passage state there is a “place” where people go to suffer for their sins. Couldn’t it be just God’s word alone could make us clean? God made the universe with his words, certainly He could make me clean with a word. Right?

NAB- 1 Cor. 13:5- it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

DRB- 1 Cor. 13:5- Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

God does keep records of wrong for justice, but he erases your sin when you go to the Sacrament of Penance. The stain of sin is still there. That’s the purpose of Purgatory, to clean you. He could certainly make you clean with one word, but you yourself will not be satisfied to go to heaven with stain on your soul. It is you who choose to sin, so you would not feel worthy to be before the infinitely perfect God, with imperfections. Just as people freely choose to go to Hell, people freely choose Purgatory.

**I suggest you read this book. It is a beautiful source of information on Purgatory.

Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints** by Fr. F. X. Schouppe

 

[MikiBee]

Thank you both for your explanations. I do try to research, but that somehow always leads me to more questions.

On that book “Purgatory Explained,” I read the reviews and some excerpts, and frankly it scares me to read it as I’m afraid of the anxiety it will cause in me. One person described purgatory as “unimaginable agony.” Life is painful enough, I don’t want to think of being stuck in misery for an indeterminate amount of time after I die. I’m not burying my head in the sand, I’m frankly just afraid to read it. I used to be terrified to die… then I suffered a bout of extreme anxiety and depression a few years ago. After coming through that I started to think dying wouldn’t be so bad after all. I don’t want to go back to being terrified of dying again. It’s just so hard to wrap my mind around God inflicting unimaginable agony when it seems so unnecessary. Surly there has to be a less painful way to purify. God is God-- I still maintain it’s possible that God can remove not just my sin, but my stain as well, with just a nod. I may be wrong, but I will do my best to receive confession regularly, lead a good life, obtain as many plenary indulgences as I can, and offer all of my suffering up to God and the poor other people that are still suffering in purgatory.

How can knowing about all the pain and suffering in purgatory (according to that book) not cause someone to become scrupulous? I know the fear of punishment by what I went though a couple of years ago has put me over the edge of scrupulosity. I thought I was in hell and couldn’t imagine it being any worse, to the point I considered taking my own life. It was just the fear I would end up in hell and I would suffer that way for eternity that kept me going. Now I fear just about everything I do is a sin, and I worry-- But again, I offer that up to God.

So please forgive all my questions and lack of understanding. It comes from a place of extreme fear over my immortal soul.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

Thank you both for your explanations. I do try to research, but that somehow always leads me to more questions.

On that book “Purgatory Explained,” I read the reviews and some excerpts, and frankly it scares me to read it as I’m afraid of the anxiety it will cause in me. One person described purgatory as “unimaginable agony.” Life is painful enough, I don’t want to think of being stuck in misery for an indeterminate amount of time after I die. I’m not burying my head in the sand, I’m frankly just afraid to read it. I used to be terrified to die… then I suffered a bout of extreme anxiety and depression a few years ago. After coming through that I started to think dying wouldn’t be so bad after all. I don’t want to go back to being terrified of dying again. It’s just so hard to wrap my mind around God inflicting unimaginable agony when it seems so unnecessary. Surly there has to be a less painful way to purify. God is God-- I still maintain it’s possible that God can remove not just my sin, but my stain as well, with just a nod. I may be wrong, but I will do my best to receive confession regularly, lead a good life, obtain as many plenary indulgences as I can, and offer all of my suffering up to God and the poor other people that are still suffering in purgatory.

How can knowing about all the pain and suffering in purgatory (according to that book) not cause someone to become scrupulous? I know the fear of punishment by what I went though a couple of years ago has put me over the edge of scrupulosity. I thought I was in hell and couldn’t imagine it being any worse, to the point I considered taking my own life. It was just the fear I would end up in hell and I would suffer that way for eternity that kept me going. Now I fear just about everything I do is a sin, and I worry-- But again, I offer that up to God.

So please forgive all my questions and lack of understanding. It comes from a place of extreme fear over my immortal soul.

The book Purgatory actually has very good explanations of the saints and what they learned about purgatory through visions, etc. It’s actually not as terrifying as the comments always try to make you believe. It has some beautiful miracle stories in it, also. It’s a very well-written book, and it’s from the 1800s, translated from French.

Yes, keep offering sufferings up for the poor souls. They’ll be happy for it.

Don’t be too scrupulous, it’s like a slap in the face to God. He went through all that pain and even death for you in His infinite Mercy. You must rely on His Mercy. If it wasn’t for that, we would all be doomed to Hell, but because of His Mercy, we all have hope. Don’t be scared, but trust in Him. I suggest you pray the Divine Mercy Novena. It’ll help with scrupulosity.

Don’t be scared. St. Pio always said, Don’t worry! Don’t every worry. Just keep trying and trust in the Lord.

It’s good to be mindful of sins and avoid sinning, but crippling yourself through fear of hell or purgatory will put you in greater danger, because when you don’t trust Jesus and His Mercy, you are feeding on fear propagated by the devil.

 

[rocketrob]

MikiBee,
It does sound like you have already endured quite a bit of suffering in your life. Hopefully, you can find some comfort from paragraph 1030 in the Catechism. It states that those needing purification “…are indeed assured of their eternal salvation…” Knowing without doubt that you have been saved does not necessarily sound like “unimaginable agony.”

rocketrob

 

[NDEaglei]

MikiBee,
Just the fact that you made it into Purgatory means you are saved. The cleansing fire will not be pleasent, but you will have the knowledge that God is waiting for you to be with him.
Do your best, Believe and Trust in Him. You will be Fine! See you there!
Peace Always,