A Quaker Understanding...

[Publisher]

“Hello Friend Publisher.
I have a question it’ll be quick so I don’t accidentally derail the thread. As you probably know the Catholic,Orthodox, Anglican and others put a certain amount of weight to the traditions and scriptures we use so ritual is somewhat important a key one is the eucharist or communion. Now all faiths have some traditions to help keep the core values and tenets going. Is the Friend movement primarily based on Jesus’s two greatest commandments (paraphrased badly sorry) to Love God first and to Love one another as you love yourself instead of say the eucharist? In a way if thats the case your group could be seen as the ones Jesus was talking about when he said to leave them alone as those that drive out demons in his name won’t speak ill of me. I’m just curious.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom”

In a very real way…Friends believe “Love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind…and the second is like unto it…love your neighbor as yourself…on these two commandment hinge the Law and the Prophets.” “Be at peace with all men as far as it be in your ablility, and live in holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord…”

Each aspect of our lives is Eucharist…each time our hands move to offer water in His Name we are making the “ritual gesture” and “sign” of our faith. Each meal carries with it a chance for sacramental expression. Each word carries with it the capacity to speak the Truth to our world.

As one Friend expressed it…"We do not reject the spiritual realities toward which sacraments point. We recognize baptism as the transformation of life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We recognize communion as the presence of Jesus Christ in our corporate worship. We recognize ordination as the diverse giftedness for ministry of all people. We recognize these things, and rejoice in them, but we do not believe that the church should seek to initiate them through ritual means.

Without getting too deep into theology, it is important to bring in here the fact that our understanding of the nature of the church is based on a realized eschatology of the new covenant. The old system has passed away, and Christ is present among us to lead us into an experience of the kingdom, here and now. Therefore, we reject all interim structures of authority, **and seek in all ways to be obedient to the immediate leadership of Christ. **As the Friends in Lausanne stated, “We believe that a corporate practice of the presence of God, a corporate knowledge of Christ in our midst, a common experience of the work of the living Spirit, constitute the supremely real sacrament of a Holy Communion.”

Friends have been called the…“culmination of the Reformation”…a “Rediscovery of New Testament Christianity”…Christ is Truly Present in our Midst as we meet for worship corproately…we seek to share Incarnation with Him in our world…leaven and light in our world.

 

[grasscutter]

Thank you for sharing what Friends of Quakers believe. I’ve always admired your contemplative tradition of peace and conciliation (especially in world of “me first”, conflict and selfishness).

As to the Eucharist, Catholics believe that it is the Real Presence. That is, that Jesus Christ is truly present in that host before you.

 

[Publisher]

Thank you for sharing what Friends of Quakers believe. I’ve always admired your contemplative tradition of peace and conciliation (especially in world of “me first”, conflict and selfishness).

As to the Eucharist, Catholics believe that it is the Real Presence. That is, that Jesus Christ is truly present in that host before you.

I understand…but for Friends “Christ is truly present in the person sitting or standing next to you.”

 

[grasscutter]

That too, of course. :hug3:

 

[ricmat]

I understand…but for Friends “Christ is truly present in the person sitting or standing next to you.”

The person sitting or standing next to you is made in the image and likeness of God. But that alone does not make Christ truly present in him/her. People often unfriend Christ

On the other hand, Christ IS present in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ.

When Catholics take the Eucharist (which is, after all a marriage feast), the two (Christ and the person taking the Eucharist) become one flesh. We truly become the “brides” of Christ. We become what we eat. We are subsumed by the higher form. We truly become the “body of Christ.” Our bodies literally become temples of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Publisher]

The person sitting or standing next to you is made in the image and likeness of God. But that alone does not make Christ truly present in him/her. People often unfriend Christ

On the other hand, Christ IS present in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ.

When Catholics take the Eucharist (which is, after all a marriage feast), the two (Christ and the person taking the Eucharist) become one flesh. We truly become the “brides” of Christ. We become what we eat. We are subsumed by the higher form. We truly become the “body of Christ.” Our bodies literally become temples of the Holy Spirit.

I understand your belief…I do not embrace it…We take on the nature and Image of Christ as we live in communion with Him and one another. Life itself is sacramental…and for us Christ is Truly Present among us to teach us Himself…Truly Present in, among, under and with us.

 

[Barbkw]

…We take on the nature and Image of Christ as we live in communion with Him and one another. Life itself is sacramental…and for us Christ is Truly Present among us to teach us Himself…Truly Present in, among, under and with us.

All of that sounds wonderful; however please explain again how your beliefs about Christ found acceptance in noncelibate SSA?

 

[Publisher]

All of that sounds wonderful; however please explain again how your beliefs about Christ found acceptance in noncelibate SSA?

Modern understandings of sexuality and gender differences. If that of God is present in every person we meet, then God is present also in those gay and lesbian Friends.

We accept the worth of persons. We embrace a sexual ethic of wholness and completemess. The well worn addage of “God didn’t make Adam and Steve, He made Adam and Eve” makes no sense to us…God in His infinite diversity of creation created humanity in myriad diversity. Homosexuality is a natural, normal variation of human sexuality.

Those gay men and lesbian women who place their unions/marriage under the care of the Meeting, lives with the same sexual ethic as do the “straight” membership.

The marriage promise every Quaker couple gives to one another is as follows…

“In the presence of God and these our Friends,
I take thee to be my <wife/husband/partner>,
promising with Divine assistance to be unto thee
a loving and faithful <wife/husband/parrtner>
as long as we both shall live”

This is done in a Meeting for Worship for Marriage. Mutual consenting adults living in consecrated unions of mutual love and respect.

We do not embrace the Catholic theology of sex and marriage. Same sex relationships are not “disordered”…they are different than the “norm”…but “different” doesn’t mean “disordered”.

We have sought to be faithful to the scriptures and our belief of “that of God” in each of us. You may not accept our beliefs…but then you’re Catholic so you must abide by the teachings and instructions of your ecclesial community. We take our beliefs quite seriously and will place ourselves in the Hands of God.

 

[gmcbroom]

Who is the SSA?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Barbkw]

SSA are people who realize they have same sex attraction.

Homosexual acts are sexual acts between same sex attracted persons.

 

[Barbkw]

He made Adam and Eve" makes no sense to us…God in His infinite diversity of creation created humanity in myriad diversity. Homosexuality is a natural, normal variation of human sexuality.

Have you found any evidence that God blessed man on man and female on female sexual relationships in Sacred Scripture? Or that any of the Apostles blessed their unions?

 

[Publisher]

Have you found any evidence that God blessed man on man and female on female sexual relationships in Sacred Scripture? Or that any of the Apostles blessed their unions?

Sacred scripture is a secondary source…scripture points us to the Source…it is not the Source itself.

"We did not exchange a “pope of flesh” for a “pope of paper’’”.

 

[Barbkw]

Sacred scripture is a secondary source…scripture points us to the Source…it is not the Source itself.

"We did not exchange a “pope of flesh” for a “pope of paper’’”.

You are your own pope then and Sacred Scripture is a “pope of paper”.

Hum.

 

[Publisher]

You are your own pope then and Sacred Scripture is a “pope of paper”.

Hum.

No, we have a Father to go to…we do not have a “pope”…flesh or paper.

If you are interested in further reading…perhaps this may assist.

quakersong.org/sex_and_our_life_in_god/

 

[Barbkw]

No, we have a Father to go to…we do not have a “pope”…flesh or paper.

If you are interested in further reading…perhaps this may assist.

quakersong.org/sex_and_our_life_in_god/

Father.

I’m assuming you mean, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Where do you go to then to understand Father if it isn’t from Sacred Scripture.

Is belief in Christ a “spiritual thing” for you? You’ve developed past Sacred Scripture?

 

[Publisher]

Father.

I’m assuming you mean, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Where do you go to then to understand Father if it isn’t from Sacred Scripture.

Is belief in Christ a “spiritual thing” for you? You’ve developed past Sacred Scripture?

Yes, God the Eternal Father.

We BEGIN our search for God in the scriptures…but they are testimonies only of other’s experience with God…each and every one of us must experience God directly.

I’m not sure what you mean by “spiritual thing”…yes…it is spiritual…but our spirituality must find physical expression in our lives.

I read the scriptures daily…and meditate upon them…and use them to pray…I find them indispensible…in them I seek to find the Word of God…they testify of the Word…they are not the Word itself.

As one Friend wrote in “Faith and Practice”…"What is the Quaker faith? It is not a tidy package of words which you can capture at any given time and them repeat weekly at a worship service. It is an experience of Discovery which starts the Discoverer on a Journey which is life long. The Discovery in itself is not uniquely a property of Quakerism. It is as old as Christianity, and considerably older if you share the belief that many have know Christ who have not known His name. What is unique to the Religious Society of Friends is its insistence that the Discovery must be made by each man and woman for himself.

No one is allowed to get it second hand by accepting a ready made creed. Futhermore, the Discovery points a Path and demands a Journey, and gives you the power to make the Journey."

 

[gmcbroom]

Publisher,
Do you use the Old and New Testament? God the Father didn’t seem to like homosexuals in the Old Testament he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over it. In the New Testament I think its mentioned to keep a body as a temple that houses the Holy Spirit. So naturally, that rules out impure behavior such as homosexual behavior though I don’t think it’s mentioned by name in the New Testament.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[Barbkw]

“…must be made by each man and woman for himself. No one is allowed to get it second hand by accepting a ready made creed.”

Your religion is called Quaker, but it has no centralized belief system. Creeds are individually determined. One believes this, another believes something else.

What are your opinions about the Apostle’s Creed? Were the Apostles too cohesive in their beliefs?

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,
Do you use the Old and New Testament? God the Father didn’t seem to like homosexuals in the Old Testament he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over it. In the New Testament I think its mentioned to keep a body as a temple that houses the Holy Spirit. So naturally, that rules out impure behavior such as homosexual behavior though I don’t think it’s mentioned by name in the New Testament.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

Yes, I use the Hebrew scriptures as well as the Christian scriptures.

Yes…the stories of the Hebrew scriptures reflect the culture of the day. The scriptures do not claim that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of “homosexualtity”…Ezekiel provides the reason with God’s “own words”. Eze 16:14

“Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor” Douay-Rheims Bible

Paul wrote concerning certain worship practices which pagans enoined in…see Romans 1…Paul also condemed pedastry…and male prostitution I believe in one of his Corinthian letters…but no where in scripture is homosexulaity as understood as a sexual orientation, fixed and unchangeable as heterosexuality ever addressed. It is not there.

Those places where homosexual behavior is condemned is always with a cultural understanding of pagan practices. If Sodom addresses same sex encounters…it condemns same sex rape and coerscion…scripture never addresses loving monogomous committed same sex relationships. It does not even begin to understand the complexity of human sexuality and relationships.

 

[Barbkw]

Publisher,
Do you use the Old and New Testament? God the Father didn’t seem to like homosexuals in the Old Testament he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah over it. In the New Testament I think its mentioned to keep a body as a temple that houses the Holy Spirit. So naturally, that rules out impure behavior such as homosexual behavior though I don’t think it’s mentioned by name in the New Testament.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

Publisher wrote that Sacred Scripture is a secondary source and also a “pope of paper”.

A person reading Sacred Scripture under that belief system, would be free to pick and choose the parts that are enjoyable, and to neglect or change the parts that are disagreeable - cafeteria Christianity, like cafeteria Catholics.