A question about attending the Catholic Church and personal convictions

[Faith1521]

The Church is not out to destroy individual cultures of the people it brings the Gospel of Christ to. On the contrary, to do so would not be “saving” people anymore than forcing people to eat, dress, think, and act alike in a dangerous mind-altering cult is “saving” people.

While the details of what you describe are actually different from what really happened, you are not too far off about some of the things you mention. (For example, your connecting Mary to pagan goddess worship is actually from anti-Catholic propaganda, hundreds of years old that isn’t based on anything proven via critical analysis of history or archaeology, just plain on anti-Catholic propaganda that some people choose to believe without doing the real homework about it.)

It is very true: Several customs that the Church has adopted through the centuries includes practices and celebrations of the peoples who came into the Church with them. Several Church holidays, for example, absorbed the customs of the people that later became popularized into widespread customs, such as some observed at Christmas.

But there are two very important points you have not come across in your research:

1. It has been the custom since antiquity for one religion to prove it’s god as true by taking over the temples, customs, and holidays of the god it conquered.

This is the way the humans have done things since the beginning of time. Wherever the Church did this, introducing the God of Abraham and even turning some pagan temples into churches, it was done because this was the accepted convention and expected. Like the custom of when a nation that conquers another disposes of the loser’s flag and raises it’s own, the overtaking of another god’s “territory” is the way almost all peoples have understood and practice the change or conquering of one religion by another. That “territory” often involved holy days and customs that some cultures felt inseparable from religious propriety (such as the custom of bowing heads during prayer).

2. Except for the Jews, all the customs of the people who would join the Church are customs of pagans–because they were all pagans except for the Jews.

That’s right. Unless you are a descendent of Abraham, you ancestors worshipped false gods. To put it bluntly, most of us are descendants of pagans. Our families were pagan, our customs were pagan, our nations were pagan.

So when the Church admitted pagans into it, it did what it could to ensure that the customs associated with the people were not lost. It adopted what it could using Christian themes. What else could it do? Except for the Jews, pagans and pagan customs were all that the Church had to absorb because that is all that you had left to bring in the Church.

So OF COURSE many customs in the Church come from or seem similar to that as practiced in pagan cultures. If it had not done this none of the nations of Christendom would have had different foods, different dress, different languages, different ways of doing things.

So when people say: “Hey, the Church adopted pagan stuff and just labeled it Christian.”

Uh, DUH! Did you want the Church to destroy your culture or instead do what it could to allow your ancestors to preserve it?

Now the details you present aren’t correct. Like I said they are based on anti-Catholic propaganda.

They also come from a phenomenon of the human mind’s ability to notice patterns of similarities. Just because some religions or pagans had practices similar to Catholics or Jews does not mean that all these religious groups borrowed from one another. It only proves that people have similar ways of doing things. To go into detail about it would take more space than we have here for now.

I don’t have much to say in reply to what you said, but thank you so much for responding! You were very informative. God bless you!

 

[SoMissCatholic]

Thank you so much for your clarity in regards to the Queen of Heaven title! It made much more sense when you broke it down like that, and the concept isn’t so difficult for me to grasp any more.

Another thing that may help you with the Catholic understanding of Mary as Queen of Heaven is Revelation 12:1-5:

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Here we see that the woman (i.e. Mary) wears a crown and gives birth to a king “destined to rule all the nations” (i.e. Jesus). Who wear crowns and give birth to kings? Queens do.

I feel better about the Rosary now, too, knowing that beads aren’t actually a part of it, rather a representation as you’re praying. I suppose I am still ignorant on many things.

That is perfectly understandable. The Catholic Church has a 2,000 year history with a lot of theology developed over that time. You can’t be expected to know about most of that to any degree when you’re just starting to learn about the Catholic faith. Heck, I’ve been a Catholic my whole life (31 years) and there is still a ton of Church history and theology that I know little to nothing about. All we can do is continue to seek the truth and ask questions when we need help.

That’s how I’d always heard the sign of the cross defined, and it broke my heart when I read that it was pagan. I would always make the sign of the cross and it was like a reminder to myself that God is with me and that I need to keep my focus on Him. It helped to keep me on track. I’m glad to know that in fact it was not pagan and that the pole and crossbar design did not necessarily come from one source.

Just another one of the ways that God is amazing: He took a sign of torture and death (the cross) and turned it into a sign of peace, hope, and life!

So, those practices are not required? I won’t be looked down on if I don’t participate in them?

Nope. Not required. Although if you do decide to become Catholic, you would be required to affirm the dogma/doctrine (I can’t remember which is technically the correct term in this instance) of the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s bodily assumption into Heaven, as both have been infallibly defined by the Church.

I will be praying more reverently about all of this and I hope that the Holy Spirit gives me complete clarity.

I will be praying for you too! May God bless you on your journey!

 

[KathleenGee]

Using Mary of Revelations is a good reference, as Mary is model Christian par excellence as well as the perfect image of the Church.

 

[pablope]

[QU

Thank you so much for your reply! I’m going to do some more digging and try to find the most unbiased resources to dig through the actual historical facts.

I am now ashamed to admit it, but I did come across some of Hislop’s writings and so that is where some of my information came from. Once again, thank you so much for your reply! God bless!

If you are looking for non biased resources, the best thing is to actually read the sources that Hislop used.

Fortunately, one did-The author of the article I provided you…equip.org/PDF/DC187.pdf

Anyway, here is his website…explaining why he did what he did:

ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

My original book had some valuable information in it. But it also contained certain teachings that were made popular in a book many years ago, THE TWO BABYLONS, by Alexander Hislop. This book claims that the very religion of ancient Babylon, under the leadership of Nimrod and his wife, was later disguised with Christian-sounding names, becoming the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, two “Babylons"—one ancient and one modern. Proof for this is sought by citing numerous similarities in paganism. The problem with this method is this: in many cases there is no connection…So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!..It is amazing how unsubstantiated teachings like these circulate—and are believed. One can go to any library, check any history book about ancient Babylon, none of these things will be found. They are not historically accurate, but are based on an arbitrary piecing together of bits and pieces of mythology.

And his research is in this book:ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html
THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, and Semiramis a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was She the originator of soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz, the initial letter of his name? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols? Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fish head of Dagon?*
[/quote]

 

[Brandall]

I was attending a Catholic Church regularly for quite some time. It was a wonderful experience for me. I met so many wonderful, Godly people. I agree with the Church on moral issues, so it was nice to have people around who had the same moral standing ground as me, as we could openly discuss important issues. I found it much easier to resist temptation. I found myself reading the Bible and praying more often, so many wonderful changes took place in my life.That being said, I stopped attending the church because I personally felt convicted that some of the practice were wrong. I agree with most practices, though - confession, marriage as a sacrament, etc,. But there are certain things that were brought into the Church later on that I just feel convicted are not necessarily right. I did some research and those practices were taken from pagan worship, but have been blessed by the Church. I truly believe that God has heard the prayers and anything evil/negative once associated with those practices is no longer present in the Church. That being said, I’m torn because on one hand I miss the Catholic Church terribly and I want to go back because I feel it makes me a better Christian. On the other hand, I don’t know if it’s right for me to attend if I don’t agree with everything being practiced and/or taught. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! God bless!

I’m a new Catholic, less than two months in fact. In the beginning of my journey to the church, I had many questions and misunderstandings about some of her practices. It took a lot of research and a lot of questions to get the answers. I wish you well on your journey.

 

[Faith1521]

Another thing that may help you with the Catholic understanding of Mary as Queen of Heaven is Revelation 12:1-5:

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Here we see that the woman (i.e. Mary) wears a crown and gives birth to a king “destined to rule all the nations” (i.e. Jesus). Who wear crowns and give birth to kings? Queens do.

That is perfectly understandable. The Catholic Church has a 2,000 year history with a lot of theology developed over that time. You can’t be expected to know about most of that to any degree when you’re just starting to learn about the Catholic faith. Heck, I’ve been a Catholic my whole life (31 years) and there is still a ton of Church history and theology that I know little to nothing about. All we can do is continue to seek the truth and ask questions when we need help.

Just another one of the ways that God is amazing: He took a sign of torture and death (the cross) and turned it into a sign of peace, hope, and life!

Nope. Not required. Although if you do decide to become Catholic, you would be required to affirm the dogma/doctrine (I can’t remember which is technically the correct term in this instance) of the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s bodily assumption into Heaven, as both have been infallibly defined by the Church.

I will be praying for you too! May God bless you on your journey!

Thank you for sharing that passage from Revelation! That brings even more clarity to the queen of heaven title.

If I do become Catholic, I will take RCIA classes and I’m sure I will ask many more questions, so if/when the time comes I will have understanding and be ready.

Thank you so much for your prayers, I appreciate them!

 

[Faith1521]

If you are looking for non biased resources, the best thing is to actually read the sources that Hislop used.

Fortunately, one did-The author of the article I provided you…equip.org/PDF/DC187.pdf

Anyway, here is his website…explaining why he did what he did:

ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html

My original book had some valuable information in it. But it also contained certain teachings that were made popular in a book many years ago, THE TWO BABYLONS, by Alexander Hislop. This book claims that the very religion of ancient Babylon, under the leadership of Nimrod and his wife, was later disguised with Christian-sounding names, becoming the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, two “Babylons"—one ancient and one modern. Proof for this is sought by citing numerous similarities in paganism. The problem with this method is this: in many cases there is no connection…So is it with the claims about pagan origins. What may seem to have a connection, upon further investigation, has no connection at all!..It is amazing how unsubstantiated teachings like these circulate—and are believed. One can go to any library, check any history book about ancient Babylon, none of these things will be found. They are not historically accurate, but are based on an arbitrary piecing together of bits and pieces of mythology.

And his research is in this book:ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-connection.html
THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, and Semiramis a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was She the originator of soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz, the initial letter of his name? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols? Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fish head of Dagon?*

Thank you so much for sharing all the info! I will be doing lots of reading.

 

[Faith1521]

I’m a new Catholic, less than two months in fact. In the beginning of my journey to the church, I had many questions and misunderstandings about some of her practices. It took a lot of research and a lot of questions to get the answers. I wish you well on your journey.

Thank you so much for the well wishes! God bless you!

 

[Jguerra]

I’d never even heard of that book before, but it sounds very messy.

Your truck analogy made a lot of sense. Who in the church should I try to get in contact with to talk about this? Is it allowed to meet with the priest and discuss things with him? Or is there someone else I should contact?

Thank you so much for your reply! God bless!

Faith1521, sorry for the late reply. First, put your request in prayer before the Lord, then call the offices of the Catholic churches in your area and ask to meet with a priest. Let the answering parties know you are interested in the Catholic faith and you have some questions.

Peace,

Joe.

 

[KathleenGee]

Agree with Joe here.

I am getting old and came to this article from a secular source. I then noticed the terrible threads about the Church and got involved. They were accusing us of being pagan, etc., whore of babylon, we not Christian…I gave them sources and they would continue on…even said they were excusing themselves from bearing false witness…

Then I realized this article came from some non-denominational group in Texas. I referred them to the catechism and left. I think when people act like that, they have some kind of spiritual sickness in their hearts. Not normal.

You can’t use religion to hide malice…and this problem can come up anywhere…including Catholics in places where the appearance of religion is so strong.

We put our trust in no one and again, and again…I am so thankful our worship is focused on Christ and not denigrating other Christians. You tell them that and they still won’t accept our worship as Christ centered.