A question about "clean food"

[SueKrum]

My husband is under the misguided belief that we should not eat pork, shell fish and the other foods that were foribdden in the OT.

He says that meats were deemed clean and unclean long before the law. He uses Genesis 7:2-3
2
Of every clean animal, take with you seven pairs, a male and its mate; and of the unclean animals, one pair, a male and its mate;
3
likewise, of every clean bird of the air, seven pairs, a male and a female, and of all the unclean birds, one pair, a male and a female. Thus you will keep their issue alive over all the earth.

So he says it’s a part of “natural law” to not eat these things.

Then, he claims that the word that is used in the book of acts for unclean, means unblessed. So God isn’t telling peter to eat pigs and such, he’s telling him not to eat anything that is not blessed. this seems preposterous to me, but I don’t know how to argue with him about it.

He says that it never mentiones any of the “unclean” foods by name in acts 10, so there’s no way to be sure.

I need some help. It doesn’t bother me that he doesn’t eat these things. However, he’s very judgemental of other people for eating them and it’s really starting to get on my nerves.

Are there any other good scriptures that touch on this subject? what about writings from the early church fathers? He’s not Catholic, but the writings of the church fathers do interest him.

thanks for your help.

 

[SueKrum]

oh, shoot, I ended up in the wrong forrum, I don’t know how that happened!

can someoene move this thread to the sacred scripture room?
whoops, sorry.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You should have him read the Gospels and Acts:

10 He summoned the crowd and said to them, “Hear and understand.
11 It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one.”

(Matthew 14;10-11)

9 The next day, while they were on their way and nearing the city, Peter went up to the roof terrace to pray at about noontime.
10 He was hungry and wished to eat, and while they were making preparations he fell into a trance.
11 He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners.
12 In it were all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky.
13 A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.”
15 The voice spoke to him again, a second time, “What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.”
16 This happened three times, and then the object was taken up into the sky.

(Acts 10; 9-16)

1 Now the apostles and the brothers who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles too had accepted the word of God.
2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem the circumcised believers confronted him,
3 saying, “You entered 2 the house of uncircumcised people and ate with them.”
4 Peter began and explained it to them step by step, saying,
5 “I was at prayer in the city of Joppa when in a trance I had a vision, something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered from the sky by its four corners, and it came to me.
6 Looking intently into it, I observed and saw the four-legged animals of the earth, the wild beasts, the reptiles, and the birds of the sky.
7 I also heard a voice say to me, ‘Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.’
8 But I said, ‘Certainly not, sir, because nothing profane or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’
9 But a second time a voice from heaven answered, ‘What God has made clean, you are not to call profane.’
10 This happened three times, and then everything was drawn up again into the sky.
11 Just then three men appeared at the house where we were, who had been sent to me from Caesarea.
12 The Spirit told me to accompany them without discriminating. These six brothers 3 also went with me, and we entered the man’s house.
13 He related to us how he had seen (the) angel standing in his house, saying, ‘Send someone to Joppa and summon Simon, who is called Peter,
14 who will speak words to you by which you and all your household will be saved.’
15 As I began to speak, the holy Spirit fell upon them as it had upon us at the beginning,
16 and I remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said, ‘John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.’
17 If then God gave them the same gift he gave to us when we came to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to be able to hinder God?”
18 When they heard this, they stopped objecting and glorified God, saying, “God has then granted life-giving repentance to the Gentiles too.”

(Acts 11;1-18)

7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.” 5
12 The whole assembly fell silent, and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.
13 After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me.
14 Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name.
15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written:
16 ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again,
17 so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. Thus says the Lord who accomplishes these things,
18 known from of old.’
19 It is my judgment, therefore, that we ought to stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God,
20 but tell them by letter to avoid pollution from idols, unlawful marriage, the meat of strangled animals, and blood.

(Acts 15;7-20)

We are no longer bound by the Dietary Laws of Moses. It is what comes out of our mouths that renders us unclean, not what goes into them.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So he says it’s a part of “natural law” to not eat these things.

The beauty of the natural law is that it’s visible and racionally defendable without using God’s commandments. We don’t need God to tell us not to kill each other, it’s pretty obvious that it’s a bad thing. So ask him how he supports the idea that eating pigs is bad. What’s so wrong about it? Why and how does it go against the Nature?

Then, he claims that the word that is used in the book of acts for unclean, means unblessed. So God isn’t telling peter to eat pigs and such, he’s telling him not to eat anything that is not blessed. this seems preposterous to me, but I don’t know how to argue with him about it.

What?

Peter, on his way to Cornelius had this vision:

Acts 10:10-16
He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

Now Peter wasn’t really sure what it meant.

Acts 10:17
While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate.

However he soon comes to full understanding of what God meant.

Acts 10:27-29
Talking with him [Cornelius], Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

This vision was not only food but about unclean thing in general. Peter affirms it. The vision was to say that in the New Law nothing is deemed to be unclean. If your husband was right then Jews are still not to associate with gentiles.

 

[Yerusalyim]

There is NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for your husband to think that in Peter’s vision the “unclean or impure” foods refer to foods that were not blessed, they refer to animals that were forbidden under the Kashrut laws.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There is NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for your husband to think that in Peter’s vision the “unclean or impure” foods refer to foods that were not blessed, they refer to animals that were forbidden under the Kashrut laws.

11 He saw heaven opened and something resembling a large sheet coming down, lowered to the ground by its four corners.
12 In it were **all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky. **13 A voice said to him, “Get up, Peter. Slaughter and eat.”
14 But Peter said, “Certainly not, sir. For never have I eaten anything profane and unclean.”

Acts, 10; 11-14
(My emphasis)

Peter saw all the earth’s four-legged animals and reptiles and the birds of the sky and was told to “get up, slaughter and eat.” All of them were fit food.

 

[SueKrum]

Thanks for your replies.

I am affraid that these are all arguements he has heard before and does not listen. I’ll try and find one of the tracts that he uses to justify what he’s saying.

He says that it’s part of the natural law because all the “un clean” creatures are actually very unhealthy to eat. Take shell fish, for example. they dewll on the floor of the ocian and eat all the junk that collects there. He says that God made them for thsi perpose and that eating them is unhealthy. He says that God wants us to be healthy and that’s why He made a law forbidding his people to eat this stuff.

Believe me, it’s been frustrating every time we go to someone elses home for dinner and God forbid there be pork there. I just want him to stop critasizing others for eating such things.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The clean unclean thing is one of the 613 laws of torah. Ask him if he is going to live by all 613 laws? for example, one is not allowed to make fire on the sabbath. Well, guess what if one drives their car, they are making fire because they are employing an combustible engine. Yes, the sparks from those plugs creates an explosion of fire. So, everytime he has driven to church or driven on saturady, he has violated the laws of God.

Exodus 35:3
Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day."

Does he ever bbq on saturday?

I cor 8
Rom 14

Is he Jewish? those torah laws do not apply to gentiles.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Thanks for your replies.

I am affraid that these are all arguements he has heard before and does not listen. I’ll try and find one of the tracts that he uses to justify what he’s saying.

He says that it’s part of the natural law because all the “un clean” creatures are actually very unhealthy to eat. Take shell fish, for example. they dewll on the floor of the ocian and eat all the junk that collects there. He says that God made them for thsi perpose and that eating them is unhealthy. He says that God wants us to be healthy and that’s why He made a law forbidding his people to eat this stuff.

Believe me, it’s been frustrating every time we go to someone elses home for dinner and God forbid there be pork there. ** I just want him to stop critasizing others for eating such things.**

There are plenty of health books out there that will support your husband’s position. And there is still plenty for him to eat even if he doesn’t eat shellfish or pork. It sounds like the real issue is his criticising of others. I wouldn’t argue the food issue at all any more. I would simply start calling him on his rude behavior. If he doesn’t comment directly to others, but complains to you after the fact, just tell him you don’t want to hear it any more. It’s like a little kid who doesn’t like what is served for dinner. You don’t have to eat it, but you also shouldn’t say, “Oh YUCK!” (or anything similar).

If he is truly worried about the damnation of the souls of those eating ‘unclean’ food, then perhaps he should pray for them instead of haraguing them.

 

[vern_humphrey]

There are plenty of health books out there that will support your husband’s position. And there is still plenty for him to eat even if he doesn’t eat shellfish or pork. It sounds like the real issue is his criticising of others. I wouldn’t argue the food issue at all any more. I would simply start calling him on his rude behavior. If he doesn’t comment directly to others, but complains to you after the fact, just tell him you don’t want to hear it any more. It’s like a little kid who doesn’t like what is served for dinner. You don’t have to eat it, but you also shouldn’t say, “Oh YUCK!” (or anything similar).

If he is truly worried about the damnation of the souls of those eating ‘unclean’ food, then perhaps he should pray for them instead of haraguing them.

In general, people tend to imitate nice people, not holier-than-thou people. If there’s some way to get that across to him . . .

 

[rpp]

Christ had some things to say about this.

10 He summoned the crowd and said to them, "Hear and understand

11 It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one."

12 Then his disciples approached and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees took offense when they heard what you said?”

13 He said in reply, 6 "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted.

14 Let them alone; they are blind guides (of the blind). If a blind person leads a blind person, both will fall into a pit."

15 Then Peter 7 said to him in reply, “Explain (this) parable to us.”

16 He said to them, "Are even you still without understanding?

17 Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine?

18 But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile.
*Matthew 15:10-18 *(NAB)

But here is the real kicker!

18 He said to them, "Are even you likewise without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that goes into a person from outside cannot defile,

19 7 since it enters not the heart but the stomach and passes out into the latrine?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Mark 7:18-19 (NAB)

I bolded the last bit because right there in Scripture, all foods have been declared clean by Jesus Christ Himself.

(The footnote links will take you to the USCCB Bible site.)

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Matthew 15:16-20 (King James Version)

16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

**17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? **

18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

According to Jesus, how does eating something make you unclean?

 

[SueKrum]

rpp,
the problem with the part of the text you bolded is that it is not scripture. my husband is not catholic, so the just sees that comment as someones erronious interpritation of what Jesus is saying. He read this passage in my bible once and went on a very long rant about biships putting things in the bible.

He seemed to think that Christ was talking about something different entirely. what, I’m not really sure. I think his heart is hardned on this matter.

thank you for your response. I don’t think I am going to win him with words. I’ll just have to keep praying.

 

[rpp]

rpp,
the problem with the part of the text you bolded is that it is not scripture. my husband is not catholic, so the just sees that comment as someones erronious interpritation of what Jesus is saying. He read this passage in my bible once and went on a very long rant about biships putting things in the bible.

He seemed to think that Christ was talking about something different entirely. what, I’m not really sure. I think his heart is hardned on this matter.

thank you for your response. I don’t think I am going to win him with words. I’ll just have to keep praying.

The part that I bolded is in Holy Scripture. It was put there by the author of the Gospel of Mark.

It strikes me that your husband is probably only going to see what he wants to see in Scripture. There is little or nothing you can do to change his mind. Except perhaps to tell him exactly this. That he is ignoring scripture. But if he is correct, ask him why the Church has never held this and that he, after 2000 years is someone the only person to get it right? That seems unlikely.

 

[Cross_to_bear]

I decide not to eat meat at al. Not for religious puposes, I find it bloats me, and/or sticks in my teeth.

 

[arush]

Thanks for your replies.

I am affraid that these are all arguements he has heard before and does not listen. I’ll try and find one of the tracts that he uses to justify what he’s saying.

He says that it’s part of the natural law because all the “un clean” creatures are actually very unhealthy to eat. Take shell fish, for example. they dewll on the floor of the ocian and eat all the junk that collects there. He says that God made them for thsi perpose and that eating them is unhealthy. He says that God wants us to be healthy and that’s why He made a law forbidding his people to eat this stuff.

Believe me, it’s been frustrating every time we go to someone elses home for dinner and God forbid there be pork there. I just want him to stop critasizing others for eating such things.

Any health benefits that might be gained by keeping kosher are secondary. The Hebrew word for unclean, (tammeh), refers to ritual uncleanness, and not to physical uncleanness. Not all the animals on the list are disgusting. And yeah, going into someone else’s house and criticizing their eating habits is probably a bad idea. Hope this helps. I have a lot of material on this from a Christian perspective, but probably shouldn’t post it here on the forum.

 

[puzzleannie]

My husband is under the misguided belief that we should not eat pork, shell fish and the other foods that were foribdden in the OT.
.

Is he Jewish? no? then it does not apply to him
Acts of the Apostles (ch 10) details how Peter received a vision from heaven which convinced him that the designations of “clean and unclean” for food were lifted for Christians. the only food “ritually unclean” defined at the council of Jerusalem was meat that had been offered to idols. (ch 15)

 

[roanoker]

The problem is, your husband has never been really hungry. I have. When you’re really hungry, i.e., haven’t eaten for 2 or 3 days and don’t know when you’ll see food again, you will eat absolutly anything! Common sense should tell him that nature is not going to kill him with any kind of food, unless he has a rare allergy to something like shellfish. Nature (God) did not invent pigs just to wander around the place and irritate people. I suspect he has invented this attitude just to irritate people.

 

[arush]

I could see his paying attention to kashrut laws if he were a practicing Jew of some sort, but what really stumps me is that he feels the need to judge others in regard to their eating habbits. If he wants to adopt extra stringencies for himself, great. But why impose those on other people?