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beckycmarie
Guest
Hopefully you learned something from it, then.
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knighthorse
Guest
Thank you for your long answer. I do understand the part about Christ and salvation very well, this is why I am here. To me humiliation equals torment. The problem is, the way this humiliation is presented has me wondered if Hell is really real…because all this time I thought that even if I went to Hell, it would be more a metaphor but if my fate after going there would be the description then I just needed to know how valid this can be. You think this ‘‘dream’’ was the push…? But then it would mean that in order for the push to be effective, i would have to know on a deeper level that this is what can happen to me after being sent to hell as punishment for pride.The only reassurance you will receive about it is via the Bible. Maybe it was powerful, because you needed a push in the right direction. It seems to me that you got that push
But don’t think that no matter what you do from now on, that you are going to hell because you dreamed it or because you got a preview…
Well, let’s dig a little deeper into it----you seem more concerned about the humiliation aspect of it rather than the suffering, due to your being a proud knight. What sort of knighthood is this? A religious order? Catholic? Do you put the knighthood on a pedestal far above Christ? Let us know just what causes the fear of humiliation, and it is interesting that that is your main fear, not the fear of everlasting torment so much…
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knighthorse
Guest
So you think this could really happen to me in Hell ?Hopefully you learned something from it, then.
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dcb188
Guest
I had it all wrong. I thought you were all along asking how to AVOID such a fate…oh I see now. You are wondering if the thing you dreamed etc COULD happen in hell. Anything that is miserable can happen in hell. Whether it is “only” a lake of fire, or has other various torments, of course anything God wants to happen there, could happen there, and if endless humiliation is part of it, sure it could happen there. Anything bad can happen there, is my own opinion, since it is not set out precisely in detail in the Bible as to what it all entails, in detail.
So you were wondering if what you dreamed could happen in reality, as this would have some effect on whether you believe hell exists…I say that “anything goes” in hell. Whatever misery you can dream of or think of, is probably there somewhere. If it were not, it would not be hell.
So, my opinion is this: Whatever the human mind can think of as being the worst that can happen, can in reality happen in hell, and perhaps some punishments are crafted specifically for people to endure because of their own specific sin, as in Dante’s Inferno, where people are punished according to their deeds on Earth…I had this all wrong from the beginning, because it appeared that you were saying that you had this dream or experience and the main thrust was How Do I Avoid This Place?
So you were wondering if what you dreamed could happen in reality, as this would have some effect on whether you believe hell exists…I say that “anything goes” in hell. Whatever misery you can dream of or think of, is probably there somewhere. If it were not, it would not be hell.
So, my opinion is this: Whatever the human mind can think of as being the worst that can happen, can in reality happen in hell, and perhaps some punishments are crafted specifically for people to endure because of their own specific sin, as in Dante’s Inferno, where people are punished according to their deeds on Earth…I had this all wrong from the beginning, because it appeared that you were saying that you had this dream or experience and the main thrust was How Do I Avoid This Place?
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knighthorse
Guest
So what you are saying is that , theoretically, if i went to hell, then i would be turned into that girlie and humiliated endlessly just like the demon stated ?
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beckycmarie
Guest
I think it is quite possible that our torment will be related to how we sinned.
You’re missing the point, though, which is that this dream could be a way of pointing out that pride may be a stumbling block getting in the way of a closer relationship with God.
Instead of worrying about what awful things await you in Hell, concern yourself more with avoiding it by working towards getting to Heaven.
Here’s are a couple little nuggets that may help:
The Litany of Humility
AND
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knighthorse
Guest
Thank you for your response - but could it be that this dream was really presenting a possible scenario ?
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dcb188
Guest
No one knows that specifically. No one. Not only that, but no one has any possible WAY of knowing. My own personal opinion is that hell can be whatever torments God has allowed or devised, for punishment purposes. I think of it this way. Whatever you imagine hell to be, multiply that by a million and that is the way it probably is in reality.
The main punishment is eternal separation from God. By our own choice.
The details of all the punishments in hell are unknown. The lake of fire is, to me, quite severe enough. I have no idea of a person would be obliged to ride a horse and be endlessly humiliated. But if the sin that led him or her to hell were punished in a specific way specific to that sin, I would not be shocked to hear that.
But no one can answer your question. No one can say that a particular punishment tailored to you, exists in hell. And by the same token, it cannot be excluded from the realm of possiblity.
Now I understand your questions to also be along the lines of, well if hell is this or that way, I may not believe in it, and if definitely has me riding around on a horse being endlessly humiliated, then I WOULD believe in it.
But hell is there whether we believe in it or not, and regardless of what we believe about its details, it is still there. What difference would it make to you whether you were compelled to ride a horse and be endlessly humiliated or your punishment consisted of solely being in a real lake of fire? I think if you were there, the distinction would be of very very little comfort. I really cannot imagine anyone there saying well, at least I am in a lake of fire forever and not riding on a horse being endlessly humiliated. I doubt if you would think your punishment was in any way mitigated.
I still see that your concern is focused on whether that could REALLY happen, i.e. what happened in your dream/experience. Suffice it to say that if it could not happen in reality in hell, many more horrible punishments would be there to take its place.
The main punishment is eternal separation from God. By our own choice.
The details of all the punishments in hell are unknown. The lake of fire is, to me, quite severe enough. I have no idea of a person would be obliged to ride a horse and be endlessly humiliated. But if the sin that led him or her to hell were punished in a specific way specific to that sin, I would not be shocked to hear that.
But no one can answer your question. No one can say that a particular punishment tailored to you, exists in hell. And by the same token, it cannot be excluded from the realm of possiblity.
Now I understand your questions to also be along the lines of, well if hell is this or that way, I may not believe in it, and if definitely has me riding around on a horse being endlessly humiliated, then I WOULD believe in it.
But hell is there whether we believe in it or not, and regardless of what we believe about its details, it is still there. What difference would it make to you whether you were compelled to ride a horse and be endlessly humiliated or your punishment consisted of solely being in a real lake of fire? I think if you were there, the distinction would be of very very little comfort. I really cannot imagine anyone there saying well, at least I am in a lake of fire forever and not riding on a horse being endlessly humiliated. I doubt if you would think your punishment was in any way mitigated.
I still see that your concern is focused on whether that could REALLY happen, i.e. what happened in your dream/experience. Suffice it to say that if it could not happen in reality in hell, many more horrible punishments would be there to take its place.
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dcb188
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BeckyCMarie: Knighthorse appears to be concerned as to whether his very specific dream/experience could really happen in hell. You and I are focused on how to have him be sure he does not go there and so he need not worry about specifics. But I think he is saying that he would believe hell exists more if it were shown that his specific dream could come true there. It misses the point, but not his point.
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knighthorse
Guest
Yes, I do get your point. But I fail to realise why turning me into a girl and then punishing me forever … I mean, who decides on the punishment and the nature of it ? If you were to be honest, do you think the punishment in this vision is an adequate one ? I am just thinking out loud.
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dcb188
Guest
You may not agree with it, but here is the stark reality.
Whatever decision God makes, is automatically and without question, just and fair.
His ways are not our ways (a fact of which I am eternally grateful).
It is his overall Plan, not ours, that counts (again, fortunately for all concerned)
If God decrees that a particular person goes to hell, then the decision was correct. God cannot make an unfair or incorrect decision.
Our problem begins with a failure to see exactly who/what God IS.
We think we know, but we really don’t. We are always comparing what He does with what WE would do.
We do not accept His sovereignty for what it really is, because we do not appreciate being told what to do.
The fact is, that God created the entire universe, and has complete say over what goes on and does not go on there, and this is unlimited. Whatever God wants to do, He does, whatever He wants to cause, He causes. He is a sovereign God, completely beyond our powers of comprehension and understanding.
It is little wonder that we always wonder why God does this or that. Actually it is up to us to obey and not wonder, but we do anyway.
I think that on some level, we all underestimate both the power and the soverignty of God. We still want to be in charge
Whatever decision God makes, is automatically and without question, just and fair.
His ways are not our ways (a fact of which I am eternally grateful).
It is his overall Plan, not ours, that counts (again, fortunately for all concerned)
If God decrees that a particular person goes to hell, then the decision was correct. God cannot make an unfair or incorrect decision.
Our problem begins with a failure to see exactly who/what God IS.
We think we know, but we really don’t. We are always comparing what He does with what WE would do.
We do not accept His sovereignty for what it really is, because we do not appreciate being told what to do.
The fact is, that God created the entire universe, and has complete say over what goes on and does not go on there, and this is unlimited. Whatever God wants to do, He does, whatever He wants to cause, He causes. He is a sovereign God, completely beyond our powers of comprehension and understanding.
It is little wonder that we always wonder why God does this or that. Actually it is up to us to obey and not wonder, but we do anyway.
I think that on some level, we all underestimate both the power and the soverignty of God. We still want to be in charge
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als10062008
Guest
Knighthorse,
It’s very possible this dream could be a punishment if you were sent to hell…The exact torments of hell are not known to us in advance. Since this has been such a powerful dream, I would react to it by weeding out the sins that keep you from drawing closer to Jesus. I’ve had a similar situation, and gave up several vices. Still tempted to them, but I deal with those temptations as they come up. My bottom line is that you’ve been given an opportunity to see a hellish fate, given time to reflect on it, and have time to act accordingly. Based on this, use your time to grow spiritually to Jesus and weed out the sins. Perhaps going to confession this weekend and discussing this with a priest would be of assistance (I’ll be at confession in the US Saturday at 1PM).
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knighthorse
Guest
So if God thinks i should be turned into a young lady and then made to parade on horseback wearing a short dress in hell , among other things, then this is a perfect judgment and there is nothing I can do about it ?You may not agree with it, but here is the stark reality.
Whatever decision God makes, is automatically and without question, just and fair.
His ways are not our ways (a fact of which I am eternally grateful).
It is his overall Plan, not ours, that counts (again, fortunately for all concerned)
If God decrees that a particular person goes to hell, then the decision was correct. God cannot make an unfair or incorrect decision.
Our problem begins with a failure to see exactly who/what God IS.
We think we know, but we really don’t. We are always comparing what He does with what WE would do.
We do not accept His sovereignty for what it really is, because we do not appreciate being told what to do.
The fact is, that God created the entire universe, and has complete say over what goes on and does not go on there, and this is unlimited. Whatever God wants to do, He does, whatever He wants to cause, He causes. He is a sovereign God, completely beyond our powers of comprehension and understanding.
It is little wonder that we always wonder why God does this or that. Actually it is up to us to obey and not wonder, but we do anyway.
I think that on some level, we all underestimate both the power and the soverignty of God. We still want to be in charge
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knighthorse
Guest
So you think this is what would actually happen to me if I were to end up in hell ?Knighthorse,
It’s very possible this dream could be a punishment if you were sent to hell…The exact torments of hell are not known to us in advance. Since this has been such a powerful dream, I would react to it by weeding out the sins that keep you from drawing closer to Jesus. I’ve had a similar situation, and gave up several vices. Still tempted to them, but I deal with those temptations as they come up. My bottom line is that you’ve been given an opportunity to see a hellish fate, given time to reflect on it, and have time to act accordingly. Based on this, use your time to grow spiritually to Jesus and weed out the sins. Perhaps going to confession this weekend and discussing this with a priest would be of assistance (I’ll be at confession in the US Saturday at 1PM).
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dcb188
Guest
Two completely different things embodied in one post.
- Whatever God decrees, is just. IF he decrees that, and it is not known if He would, but IF he did, yes, it would be just, your standards and my standards would not enter into it, as we are not even in the same league with a sovereign and all-knowing and all-perfect God.
- There would be nothing you could do about it after it happened, no.
But there is plenty you can do about it now. As we discussed.
Keep in mind that even a theologian cannot give you the precise answers you are looking for, much less a criminal trial attorney in the high crime inner-city courts of Boston, but the Bible controls, not what my opinion is, but what the Bible says, is what is important.
So, it is not known and it is completely unknowable whether God would punish you in that specific way.
And, it is known that you can completely avoid hell as one of your future destinations. And you already know how to do that so this is an academic discussion, which is fine, absolutely fine.
But if you believe in hell based on something you want shown to you as possible or impossible, then you do not have an adequate knowledge of what God is like. If you believe in hell because it is shown to you that yes, you could end up in the specific scenario you gave, and you do not believe in hell because it is shown that that could not happen, then you are in dangerous waters. Because then you are believing in a conditional way, i.e. if hell comports with what we think it is or should be, we believe in it, but if we cannot understand how a good God could punish us in that specific way you outlined then we do not believe in hell, that is dangerous ground because it makes us the center of what is real and what is not real.
We have a tendency to think that there is a relationship between what we believe and that thing being true or not. A lot of people do not believe in God, and therefore they conclude that He does not exist, because they do not believe in Him.
If we do not believe in the existence or Mars, then Mars does not exist. Whatever we think is true----is true. This is the biggest fallacy of Western Civilization, to believe things out of existence. As if what we believe controls what exists. It sort of needs our permission in order to be real…
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knighthorse
Guest
So it is actually God that decides the punishment, yes ? Could you explain, in theory, how would the punishment proceed for me were I to be sent to hell…I know it is a strange request but it might help me to overcome the fear by focusing on the bright side.
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dcb188
Guest
God decides the punishment. I can’t think of anyone else that would.
No one can say what punishment would be meted out to you or to me or to anyone, should we cause ourselves to be sent to hell.
No one can answer that question, my friend, ever. Only God knows.
If your question remains, WILL I or COULD I be punished in hell in accordance with the scenario I dreamed/experienced, the answer is that there is no answer to that.
Except to say that God can do whatever He wants to do, at any given time, with or without our permission or approval.
No one can say what punishment would be meted out to you or to me or to anyone, should we cause ourselves to be sent to hell.
No one can answer that question, my friend, ever. Only God knows.
If your question remains, WILL I or COULD I be punished in hell in accordance with the scenario I dreamed/experienced, the answer is that there is no answer to that.
Except to say that God can do whatever He wants to do, at any given time, with or without our permission or approval.
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knighthorse
Guest
Yes but could it be that God actually showed me the vision of what my possible fate could be - a real possibility if i did not change my ways ?
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dcb188
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You want to know if it could be real, so you can decide whether to change your ways. You do not want to change your ways unless it is shown that you must. Am I close?
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knighthorse
Guest
I guess so…I will not lie now because it would be pointless…so please tell me ? Could it be real ?
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