A Question About Hell

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The words of Christ were written down, in some cases, many centuries after he was crucified.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the stories as expressed in the Bible, are a direct reflection of the people living in that time in history and they are stories that people could relate to?
Oh my gosh. OTP - you are missing the essence of Catholicism. IT DOESN’T MATTER!! It doesn’t matter when they were written down!! It doesn’t matter what the author’s predispositions were or where he was when he wrote them. It doesn’t matter!!

Christ has GUARANTEED the indefectibility of His Church on earth and he gave us an earthly final authority in His absence so that we would not be second-guessing every line in scripture and every belief passed down through Apostolic succession.

So stop second guessing, keep the commandments as hard as it may be, love your neighbor as yourself, frequent the sacraments, and you may make it!
 
The words of Christ were written down, in some cases, many centuries after he was crucified.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the stories as expressed in the Bible, are a direct reflection of the people living in that time in history and they are stories that people could relate to?

I don’t think God can be placed neatly in a box that has him defined as a King or Judge.

King and Judge, that is precisely what ancient man could relate to in regards to a higher power.
Hi, personally, I don’t see a problem with Jesus proclaiming Himself as Judge and King. If you believe all that He taught, afterlife, etc., then if it is not Christ who judges, who does? And certainly, it is well documented that the people of the OT interchanged the two words, God and Judge, and sometimes called their religious judges, gods (lower case g). So your point is somewhat on, and if you need to view God as just that, GOD, I don’t see why not. As long as you understand the concept behind what is meant by Christ is King, Lord, and Judge.

May I recommend reading through Quas Primas? Wikipedia describes what this document is about.

Also, your thoughts have very atheistic leanings. Are you thinking of setting God aside as well? (Personal question, I know, so no need to answer if you aren’t comfortable going there.)
 
Interesting. So is there a truth that will set us free? Have you ever thought about how you might know what that truth is?
There are many truths. For us as Christians, Jesus leads us to God.

Dogmatic absolutism isn’t the be all and end all.

If someone experiences the sacred and has a relationship with God outside of Catholicism or even Christianity, who are we to tell them that they are on the wrong path to truth?

Monarchical theism as brought people to god for centuries and if it still brings people to God…then again, clearly it is a vision of God that still has it’s proper place.
 
Are you thinking of setting God aside as well? (Personal question, I know, so no need to answer if you aren’t comfortable going there.)
Not a chance.

I’ve challenged my pre-conceived views on what I thought I believed and I wasn’t even aware that I could be a Christian and yet have a completely different vision of God than the far away, distant God that I envisioned…that of King and Judge, somewhere up in heaven, seated on a throne…far away.
 
There is one way to avoid hell forever, and that’s believe that Jesus was who he said he was. He died to pay for your sins on that cross, so that you could go to heaven. If you’ve ever told a lie, stolen anything, looked at a woman with lust or broken any of the other ten commandments you most certainly will pay for your sins in the lake of fire.

Jesus defeated death and overcame hell when he paid for your sins on the cross, if you repent and turn from your sins and follow and trust Jesus… you will be saved. My advice, get on your knees and stay there until Jesus fills you will His holy spirit and you have your assurance of salvation.
 
The words of Christ were written down, in some cases, many centuries after he was crucified.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the stories as expressed in the Bible, are a direct reflection of the people living in that time in history and they are stories that people could relate to?

I don’t think God can be placed neatly in a box that has him defined as a King or Judge.

King and Judge, that is precisely what ancient man could relate to in regards to a higher power.
Oh a modern thinker:thumbsup: A true progressive. Wonderful:thumbsup: . well lets see, the Gospel of Mark was written around the year 60 CE Matthew in the late 60’s. Luke, early to mid 70’s and John in the 80’s/ Acts was probably done on the 70’s to early 80’s as well. All of these were written within 30 to 70 years after the death of Christ. , The Pauline Epistles were written between about 50 until around 60 or so. These books are actually the bulk of the New Teastament Canon.

By the early 200’s ALL of the current books were in circulation. In 367 or so the current canon was set in stone. So I’m not sure where you come up with the statement that the words were written down many centuries after Christs death.:hmmm: The actual timeline seems to be from about thirty years after His death until about 140 years or so after his death, with the bulk written within 50 years His death

I suppose that you also adhere to the belief that the miracles performed by Christ were not true miracles am I correct? No virgin birth or angelic visitation ? The changing of water into wine, the feeding of the multitudes, Christ walking on water the resurrection etc, didn’t occur am I right? There are of course good rational explanations for all of these things. In fact, Christ probably didn’t die on the cross at all did he.

Yes, perhaps you as many have also done, have evolved beyond the need of God and Christ and Holy Spirit and see the primary purpose of the faith as the moral uplifting of society so that we can attain the type of society that Christ envisioned for us.

If that is the case then I can certainly understand why you find the idea of Hell abhorrent. A place of rightful judicial punishment flies right in the fac of modern thinking and theology.
 
Not a chance.

I’ve challenged my pre-conceived views on what I thought I believed and I wasn’t even aware that I could be a Christian and yet have a completely different vision of God than the far away, distant God that I envisioned…that of King and Judge, somewhere up in heaven, seated on a throne…far away.
Good to hear. And, your old view of God is not the Catholic view either. 🙂 You certainly are leaving something behind, but what you describe is not Roman Catholicism. You do appear to be learning who God really is (rather than your errant ideas). I propose that you don’t need to leave Catholicism to maintain this journey.
 
I think you’re setting up some very common false dichotomies.
The words of Christ were written down, in some cases, many centuries after he was crucified.
This is not true. St. Paul’s letters were written within the lifetime of the Apostles, the eyewitnesses of the life of Christ.

Even if your contention were true, oral histories cannot be presumed to be false histories.
Have you ever thought that perhaps the stories as expressed in the Bible, are a direct reflection of the people living in that time in history and they are stories that people could relate to?
What makes you think that reflecting a time in history renders a story false? A story can be both true and absolutely a reflection of the time and place in which it was written.

Also, what makes you so sure that your own interpretation of Scriptures is not tainted by the self-importance and scepticism rampant in our own age? What would make us immune to cultural bias?
I don’t think God can be placed neatly in a box that has him defined as a King or Judge.
Neither can God be tamed by a neat definition in which his darlings can do no wrong or in which good and evil are matters of opinion. To be a self-absorbed brat is its own punishment, no matter how indulgent or near your parents are. That isn’t an opinion.
King and Judge, that is precisely what ancient man could relate to in regards to a higher power.
Has it occurred to you that you reject the role of God as King and Judge because it conflicts with your cultural expectations or your particular psychological desires? I don’t blame you for being certain that our Divine King and Judge is as far above human kings and judges as the heavens are above the earth. I do want to caution you not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I want to encourage you to re-imagine what a divine King and a Judge is.

That an idea is older does not make it less true. This is a common myth of our times.
There are many truths. For us as Christians, Jesus leads us to God.

Dogmatic absolutism isn’t the be all and end all.
There may be many different ways of expressing the truth, more than one way to discover it, and degrees to which one is practically aware of it, even if one has all the objective facts committed to memory, but there is such a thing as the objectively true and the objectively false.

There is a dogmatism that pretends to own the truth and that acts as if the truth were at its beck and call, but there is also an orthodoxy that is in obedience to the truth, too. Again, do not confuse the warped version for the real thing and throw out the whole idea on that account.
If someone experiences the sacred and has a relationship with God outside of Catholicism or even Christianity, who are we to tell them that they are on the wrong path to truth?
If one of our friends was driving a 4x4 with square wheels, who would we be to tell him that round was better? I mean, if he was getting where he was going? Again, some people are going to be determined to do things their own way, no matter what anyone else says, but that doesn’t mean that every truth is subject to personal opinion.

I’m not saying that the Holy Spirit may not choose to reveal the love and glory of God to whomever He pleases. I’m not saying that the Catholic Church owns the fullness of truth, rather than the other way around. To think we own God is a grave mistake, and can be a source of scandal. Nevertheless, it is possible to be closer or farther from objective truth.
Monarchical theism as brought people to god for centuries and if it still brings people to God…then again, clearly it is a vision of God that still has it’s proper place.
If you are objecting to a vision of God that is purely juridical, purely quid pro quo, then yes, it is possible to have a vision of God that is so narrow as to be false. How could a remote and cold monarch be reconciled with the truth of the Incarnation? With the truth of the Pascal Mystery? It is impossible.

Nevetheless…that Jesus is Shepherd, Brother, and Humble Savior, the sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world does not precude him from being King and Judge. That He has dominion over every star does not mean he can’t care for every sparrow. Every knee shall bend before Him for whom equality with God was not something to be grasped at. These truths are not at odds.

Remember the story of the three blind men, arguing about whether an elephant was like a tree, a wall, a rope, or a firehose? Does this mean it is impossible for a blind man to have a good idea what an elephant is? Of course it doesn’t. Likewise, the truth that someone without the big picture can get an idea of the smaller pictures on their own does not mean the the big picture is not the most in keeping with reality.

Catholics may be as blind as anyone else, but we have been given an excellent description of what the elephant looks like.
 
TO AVOID HELL DO PENANCE, PENANCE, PENANCE! AND WHEN YOU’RE ALL DONE THAT, DO IT AGAIN!
Peace,

Gail
 
There are many truths. For us as Christians, Jesus leads us to God.
And how do you know that is so? What allows you to make the statement that there are “many truths”?
If someone experiences the sacred and has a relationship with God outside of Catholicism or even Christianity, who are we to tell them that they are on the wrong path to truth?
Well for those who believe in the Church’s teaching and the Holy Bible, there are many way to combat such errors and teach people the true way to worship. There is one way to Heaven, and that’s through our Lord.

If you don’t believe that, then how can you believe in Christianity at all? Do you pick and choose from the Bible and keep the bits that make you feel good?
 
Umm, in England they actually have real knightly orders, lords and ladies, titles, trained calvarymen who really do training in the equestrian arts on real horses, and all of that.

As for demons, I don’t know about his dream, but evil spirits do exist. Nothing they say should be taken at face value, they should be assumed to be liars who can only be trusted to have an unswerving desire to separate us from God, but the legions of Satan are real.

I see your point, but let us not supplant one extreme with the other. We may not judge, but we must not suppose that righteousness is somehow besides the point just because we are incompetent in the reading of hearts. The New Testament teaches that we must not judge one another. It does not teach that God will not judge us according to our deeds and the disposition of our hearts. It teaches that eternal life has been made available by the death and resurrection of Our Lord. It does not teach that we may not reject that gift by our actions.

The legalistic lack wisdom and justice. The law of God is not a series of suggestions, but a loving reflection which informs us of the real consequences of our actions. One may as well say that belief in the universal applicablity of Newton’s laws makes one a legalist. The ignorant would say that airplanes violate Newton’s laws. That they are wrong, or even the truth that Newton’s laws do not perfectly encompass the realities of nature, does not make every rock into an airplane.
Yeah there are symbolic knightly orders, and there are also demonic powers, and there are also, “girlies,” but I can recognize
a joke post when I see one, as I am the master of them.
 
Yeah there are symbolic knightly orders, and there are also demonic powers, and there are also, “girlies,” but I can recognize a joke post when I see one, as I am the master of them.
Now, why would you do that? Really, why would someone do that? I don’t think it has anything to do with playing too many computer games, at any rate. It ranks right up there with people who ape those with mental disorders, thinking that that is cute. It is not cute. It is callous.

There are men who have dreams like that. There are girls in white slavery who live through that kind of treatment in real life, too. Call me a stick in the mud, but experiences that invoke a real fear of hell are not funny. Somebody who makes up a dream like that to post deserves to live through the same for the next several nights. Then they can be the judge of how funny it is.
 
Now, why would you do that? Really, why would someone do that? I don’t think it has anything to do with playing too many computer games, at any rate. It ranks right up there with people who ape those with mental disorders, thinking that that is cute. It is not cute. It is callous.

There are men who have dreams like that. There are girls in white slavery who live through that kind of treatment in real life, too. Call me a stick in the mud, but experiences that invoke a real fear of hell are not funny. Somebody who makes up a dream like that to post deserves to live through the same for the next several nights. Then they can be the judge of how funny it is.
He wants us to confirm his absurd :dream," to make us look stupid. First of all, the nonsense about him being in a knightly order. Yes there are true knightly orders, but why would he mention that? What relevance does it have? He’s adding absurd elements to make it worse.

Being turned into a “girlie” and sodomized by demons?

He’s basically taken a scene out of his Dungeons and Dragons game and asked us to confirm it----- for laughs.

I would think a real vision of hell would not resemble a skit from Robot Chicken…

And you are certainly right. It is very callous. The reality of Hell is very serious, as is rape.
 
Thank you for your response. I understand what you are saying but my question was more along the lines - can it be the case that hell is more than a lake of fire , can what I have described actually happen there ? Do you agree with people that say most people that die go to hell ?
…horse listen,

I’m going to assume you are catholic. There are certain catholic things that we must do really, really well. This is my peronsal list:

Pray the Rosary - daily

Go to Confession and Communion - weekly (in that order!).

Carry and wear your sacramentals. Never leave home without them. Best to forget your wallet than to forget your Rosary.

Love and serve the Lord, Jesus Christ and be a witness onto others.

Your dream is an attack from Lucifer to detract you from the things indicated above.

The devil is a liar. Do not listen or converse with the demon.

Before going to bed (from now on) pray the St. Michael Archangel prayer…as well as throughout the day, whenever you feel that the fear of this dream accosts you.

Do these things and do them really, really well.
 
It was a dream. But know that Christ descended into hell and if we are Christians we claim to follow him so we have nothing to fear of hell.
Well actually, Christ didn’t go to hell even though it says so in the Apostles Creed, (some just say “dead”.) It wasn’t heaven, obviously, and not prugatory because he didn’t really sin.I think it was where all the prophets and saints that came before Jesus went, Sheol or something, because the kingdom of heaven wasn’t open unil Jesus came invited the, to heaven and opened the gates.
 
Well actually, Christ didn’t go to hell even though it says so in the Apostles Creed, (some just say “dead”.) It wasn’t heaven, obviously, and not prugatory because he didn’t really sin.I think it was where all the prophets and saints that came before Jesus went, Sheol or something, because the kingdom of heaven wasn’t open unil Jesus came invited the, to heaven and opened the gates.
If Christ did not descend into hell, then why is the Apostle creed stating Christ descended in to hell then?

Explain to me in detail what you mean as the “dead”?

I always thought God gave Jesus a glimpse of Hell, when he descended into hell…according to the Apostles creed, and then ascended into heaven on the third day.

It’s almost like when Our Lady at Fatima gave the three seers (Lucia, Francesco and Jacinta) a glimpse of hell in the year 1917.

I’m sure they(three seers) were sinless as well. Our lady of Fatima gave them a promise that all three of them would be in heaven with her one day immediately after showing them hell.
 
To the OP:

I may be mistaken, but it seems to me that there is at least one thing problematic about your dream. Satan will not rule in Hell. From the Book of Revelation, it would seem that when he is finally cast away, Hell will be for him as great a place of torment as it is for others, indeed, probably more so, since I believe that Church teaching is that the punishments of Hell are proportional (if the absence of God and His Love were not bad enough) to the unrepented sins that landed one there. I assume that applies to the legions that fell with Satan, ie, that it will be a torment for them as well, rather than something they rule over. I rather doubt that they will be using you or anyone else, or even that any in Hell will be aware of the presence of anyone else. Can anyone cite an authoritative Church teaching that says otherwise?

We cannot be absolutely certain of our salvation, because we can always reject the Holy One and we can also delude ourselves. We can be morally certain that if we follow Christ and cling to Him and His Mercy, we will be saved because He will not fail in His promise. I would urge you to develop a devotion to the Divine Mercy.
 
If Christ did not descend into hell, then why is the Apostle creed stating Christ descended in to hell then?

Explain to me in detail what you mean as the “dead”?

I always thought God gave Jesus a glimpse of Hell, when he descended into hell…according to the Apostles creed, and then ascended into heaven on the third day.

It’s almost like when Our Lady at Fatima gave the three seers (Lucia, Francesco and Jacinta) a glimpse of hell in the year 1917.

I’m sure they(three seers) were sinless as well. Our lady of Fatima gave them a promise that all three of them would be in heaven with her one day immediately after showing them hell.
I ***think ***the precise teaching of the Church is that Christ descended to the Limbo or Sheol of the Fathers, not to the hell of eternal torment that awaits the souls that die apart from the Grace of God. He there lead out all of the righteous from the time of Adam to the moment of His Own Death (there’s a wonderful meditation somewhere on His encounter with Saint Joseph, who asked Our Lord how His Mother was). It might be helpful to check out the origins of the word “hell.”
 
I ***think ***the precise teaching of the Church is that Christ descended to the Limbo or Sheol of the Fathers, not to the hell of eternal torment that awaits the souls that die apart from the Grace of God. He there lead out all of the righteous from the time of Adam to the moment of His Own Death (there’s a wonderful meditation somewhere on His encounter with Saint Joseph, who asked Our Lord how His Mother was). It might be helpful to check out the origins of the word “hell.”
Thanks, I did some research and this is what I found.

The Meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament
by Alvah Hovey
The Old Testament Student, Vol. 5, No. 2 (Oct., 1885), pp. 49-52
Published by: The University of Chicago Press

I was unable to copy and paste the article because it was in PDF mode. (4 pages). Very interesting article.

Anyways, here’s my synopsis of what Alvah Hovey is saying.
or should I say this is how I perceived him.

The true and first definition of the word “Sheola” means “to the grave” or “the abode of the dead” which is in the “revised version of Gen. XXXVIII., 35 (The words of Jacob to his sons and daughters, after Joseph’s coat dipped in blood had been shown to him”

Scholar, Alvah Hovey, also states that the “Revisers” has translated the word “Sheola” or “Sheol” to also be defined as “the pit”, and “hell”. There are three different meanings for the word Sheol.

The Revisers over time have translated the word “Sheol” as “The Grave”, fifteen times, “The Pit”, five times, and “hell” fifteen times within the bible.

Per Alvah Hovey, “the grave”, Heb. Sheol. See GEN. XXXVII 35. It is good for the reader to consult the margins and examine the explanation in Genesis to which he is referred, he will obtain a tolerably correct view of the meaning.
 
One more thing I forgot to mention.

Like I stated in my previous post, the first mention of the word “Sheola” in the bible is in Genesis 37:35

The words of Jacob to his sons and daughters, after Joseph’s coat dipped in blood had been

“And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.”

another keyword here is “mourning”.

The definition of “mourning” means “sorrow” or “sadness”.
“the act of a person who mourns; sorrowing or lamentation”

Sheola or Sheol has three synonyms = “to the grave”(the abode of the dead), “the pit” and “hell”
 
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