A question about omnipotent God?

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phuong

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You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
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The deficiencies in coming to grips with that proposition relate to the qualities of the logic we have at our disposal, not to the qualities of God.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
Click to expand...
You mean like the rock place in front of His tomb?
 
You see, when God wakes up in the morning, the first question he asks himself is, “Do I feel like being able to pick this rock up today?”

The question is about as dumb as, “If I have free will, then am I capable of choosing to not have free will?”

Worry about your free will. Then worry about God’s.
 
I think what Gerry is trying to say, in layman’s terms, is, “why would God want to?” God has a purpose for everything (this we know from Scripture), and unless the person who posited this question can divine God’s purpose for creating something he cannot move, then and only then will the question make any rational and valid sense.

God bless,
Greg
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
Click to expand...
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Faith and Reason. No God cannot do an un"reasonable" thing like that.

Msgr Knox used this combination of Faith and Reason as follows:

[1]The dignity of God is unlimited and unmeasurable, as He has no equal.
[2] The dignity of man is limited and measurable.

Now, if I were to offend you by taking your pencil, using it and perhaps breaking it, I have offended you and your “dignity”. I can come to you, replace the pencil, say I am sorry, and because of our similar levels of dignity, we can be at peace.

If I offend God, I offend His dignity and there is no way I could either rise to the level of Him and seek forgiveness, nor could He lower Himself to my level so we can be at peace. That chasm between His dignity and mine is unlimited and cannot allow for our dignity levels to be equal. It would not be reasonable and God “cannot” do the “unreasonable”.

What this then leads to is this statement. Even the smallest sin, or offense against God could not be rectified by all of mankind ever. It is not reasonable for God to be so much greater than us and be our equal. So,God cannot forgive us.

Ouch…

That’s why He sent His Incarnate Son.

MrS
 
If God created logic and language, then he created logic and its attendant paradoxes. If God does not exist, who created logic?

This puts you on solid ground to appeal to St. Thomas Aquinas and the five proofs.
 
How about an analogy? If God is eternal and immortal, can he die? (well, he did, on the cross) But he didn’t, because he rose from the dead. Well, to rise from the dead, means you have to die, first. But if he really died. . . .

So, the previous answer is the correct one: the problem lies in our limited rational grasp of the universe. A rational understanding which God created, and thus (“rationally”) supercedes.

Now, stop watching the Simpsons so much!
 
read the Book of Job before you start questioning God’s plans and reasons, He doesn’t owe you any explanation.
 
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zange:
How about an analogy? If God is eternal and immortal, can he die? (well, he did, on the cross) But he didn’t, because he rose from the dead. Well, to rise from the dead, means you have to die, first. But if he really died. . . .

So, the previous answer is the correct one: the problem lies in our limited rational grasp of the universe. A rational understanding which God created, and thus (“rationally”) supercedes.

Now, stop watching the Simpsons so much!
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God has no past as we understand it. God has no future as we understand it.
God is eternally present, as we understand it. No limits, no restraints, no constrictions. But lots of patience, putting up with us trying to figure Him out.

Fr Groeschel: “Far be it from me to think that God thinks like I think.”

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
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GAssisi:
I think what Gerry is trying to say, in layman’s terms, is, “why would God want to?” God has a purpose for everything (this we know from Scripture), and unless the person who posited this question can divine God’s purpose for creating something he cannot move, then and only then will the question make any rational and valid sense.

God bless,
Greg
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Not exactly, Greg, but you make a good point.

It’s like the observation that you can’t make sense out of a non-sense statement by putting “God can …” in front of it.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
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MrS:
God has no past as we understand it. God has no future as we understand it.
God is eternally present, as we understand it. No limits, no restraints, no constrictions. But lots of patience, putting up with us trying to figure Him out.

Fr Groeschel: “Far be it from me to think that God thinks like I think.”

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
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Hello, again, Mr. S. Are you agreeing, disagreeing, or simply quoting me to take off on your own tangent here? Unlike our earlier exchange on “non-catholics”, I don’t see the connection between your statement and what you quote from me (??)
 
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zange:
Hello, again, Mr. S. Are you agreeing, disagreeing, or simply quoting me to take off on your own tangent here? Unlike our earlier exchange on “non-catholics”, I don’t see the connection between your statement and what you quote from me (??)
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Please read reply #10 again, and try to see the continuation of your thought.

I was agreeing with your comment by way of pursuing your thoughts… hardly my own tangent. When we try to figure out God, we should remember Fr Groeschel’s comment… also a continuation of your thoughts.

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
Click to expand...
Best definition of omnipotence I’ve ever heard is that it is the ability to do anything that can be done. That excludes making a rock so heavy he can’t lift it, which is a nonsense.

DaveBj
 
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MrS:
Please read reply #10 again, and try to see the continuation of your thought.

I was agreeing with your comment by way of pursuing your thoughts… hardly my own tangent. When we try to figure out God, we should remember Fr Groeschel’s comment… also a continuation of your thoughts.

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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Hmm. I think there may be some mis-communication, possibly due to my ironic analogy. I didn’t mean to enter into the literal-mindedness of one would would question whether God could both die and be immortal. I was trying to expose the weakness in such “logic.”

I think we agree that efforts to fully define (limit) God’s possibilities are futile (and probably misguided). no?

But I have a quibble with Fr. Groeschel’s comment about God’s thinking and our thinking being so far apart that it is foolish to try to understand how God thinks (another bad analogy: some times I think I shouldn’t try to understand how my wife thinks, but then again my clumsy efforts are, if nothing else, a sign of my love for her and desire to know her better). Fr. Groeschel’s approach has its usefulness (especially in contesting intellectual pride), and it certainly is a popular position among post 1960s Americans who are quick to associate faith with feelings and reason with atheism. But I’m more inclined to the Thomistic argument that we humans are not alien to God’s way of thinking at all. The fact that God gave us humans alone reason is an indication of our special connection to how he thinks: we can use this reason to discover God. But of course we can abuse reason to discover nothing but deception and pride, too. I think the key is the recognizition that life, even reason, is best understood as an analogy (analogia entis)
 
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zange:
I think we agree that efforts to fully define (limit) God’s possibilities are futile (and probably misguided). no?
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Amen

MrShttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif
 
A rock that is so heavy that God cannot lift it is a contradiction in terms. It is no thing. It is nothing. And nothing IS impossible to God.

God can’t make a square circle either.

JimG
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JimG:
A rock that is so heavy that God cannot lift it is a contradiction in terms. It is no thing. It is nothing. And nothing IS impossible to God.

God can’t make a square circle either.

JimG
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But regardless of a rock, circle, or square God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Take it on your faith!
The church is full of many mysteries.
We have two choices either we except them and find better things to argue about, or we continue discussing whether or not God can lift a rock!
Your Choice!

:yup: Faith isn’t faith till its all your holding onto!
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
Click to expand...
What it really says is that God **cannot **make a rock so big he cannot carry it. The argument is really made up of two negatives and hence a double negative is in fact a positive. Therefore, the opposite is true, namely God can carry every rock He can make, even if they are very big.

Hence, God is omnipotent.

Gerry
 
One more point regarding the square-circle.

The same applies to the argument that God cannot create a square circle. A square-circle is a circle that is not a circle and a square that is not a square. It is therefore formally nothing. God’s power cannot be measured by His ability to create nothing.

Hence God is likewise omnipotent.

Gerry
 
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