A question about omnipotent God?

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Toni:
But regardless of a rock, circle, or square God is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Take it on your faith!
I certainly believe all that. My only point is that God does not make contradictions, and he does not make nothing. Aquinas says that God is all act, no potentiality.
Another thing God cannot do is cease to exist; because existence is his essence. It is literally true that “nothing” is impossible to God.
 
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JimG:
I certainly believe all that. My only point is that God does not make contradictions, and he does not make nothing. Aquinas says that God is all act, no potentiality.
Another thing God cannot do is cease to exist; because existence is his essence. It is literally true that “nothing” is impossible to God.
I agree. The best way I have heard the point put is that “the divinely unliftable rock”, “the square circle”, “the married bachelor” are all “things” that can’t exist, and so are not things at all, but forms of words.

There are lots of “things” like this that God “can’t” do: he can’t create another God (God is uncreated); he can’t destroy himself (God is immutable, he is “I am”), he can’t hate (God is love). But these “can’ts” aren’t limitations, they are perfections.

The only “things” beyond his power are what doesn’t exist, what is no thing, i.e., nothing. The other side of this, there is nothing beyond his power; everything there is is within his power. There is no part of reality, no corner of the universe, no dark, shadowy back room he is not sustaining in being (with his love), and so aware of. No thought . . . Sorry, I was going off on a flight of metaphysics. We could take these things on faith, but reason also attests to these truths.
 
Cutting through all the metaphysics nd philosophy, there is one thing that is for sure.

God has made plenty of rocks that I can’t lift 😛

DaveBj
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!

Maybe there is an equivocation here, a confusion between different senses of the words “God can…”​

For example:

“God can - be eaten by a giant rat”

“God can - turn lettuces into giant purple munchkins”

“God can - turn water into wine”

“God can - commit a mortal sin”

The objection is a purely verbal one, which treats all phrases beginning “God can…” as though they were the same sort of phrase - and, as though they were all the same kind of thing. It is not a statement about realities. It’s like insisting that because apples and pears are both kinds of fruit, all apples are pears. Or, that because the Holy Spirit bears fruit in us, therefore, goodness and kindness must be on sale at the fruiterer’s.

IOW, all sorts of things are being lumped together, purely by having those two words “God can…” put in front of them. That does not confer meaning on them.

“God can Bush Alpha Tripod”, is meaningless. Writing “God can…” in front of them, dpes not make an intelligible sentence - still less does it state anything about God. Unless one is going to argue that anything we can think, is therefore intelligible, even if we cannot see how. I have not yet seen this position defended.

Of the four phrases at the top, the third is intelligible - it is no contradictory, it communicates information about how God acts, it does not state anything about God that we know is contradictory to God’s moral character.

Saying “God can do X/Y/Z” is only intelligible if we already know something about God - if there is something realy existing to which our assertions can correspond. As there is no evidence for the objective existence of munchkins, we cannot know that our statements about them mean anything: we do not know our knowledge about them. With God, we do; so, we make statements about God. So statements abour munchkins and about God are not the same type of statement - because the existence of God and of munchkins outside our intellects is not of the same ontological status; certainly not as far as we know. So we have no firm foundation for being as certain that munchkin-statements mean anything real, as that God-statements do.

Therefore, God-statements are more intelligible than munchkin-statements; so we make the former, and not the latter. With one exception: munchkin-statements are intelligible in discussions of the “Wizard of Oz” - but, God-statements are far more widely intelligible.

Another vital point: God-statements are analogical. This should be emphasised. It is why picture language for God is needed - we have indirect knowledge of God; not the knowledge that comes from face-to-face vision. How can we have that, “until we have faces” ?

Which is why the NT talks about the fruits of the Holy Spirit - analogies are not lies, but representations to help the mind think about realities that are hard - or impossible - to express in words.

Hope this helps 🙂 Sorry if it’s a little dense. ##
 
Quite a collection of thoughts!

> You mean like the rock place in front of His tomb?

This is an interesting thought but the condition to accept this rock is to accept Christianity Trinity. The God here is implied beyond Christianity.

>he deficiencies in coming to grips with that proposition relate to the qualities of the logic we have at our disposal, not to the qualities of God.

Gerry’s above answer is an eloquent version of mine 🙂

Gottle, you’re corrected that it’s little densed for my crude thinking; have to absorb more on those.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)uts to this discussions.
 
Frank Sheed, in Theology and Sanity, dealt with this question as well, and basically said that the hypothetical was a statement of nothing, just like saying a “square circle” really defines nothing. His response is a pithy reemphasis of the popular Scriptural quotation: “Nothing is impossible for God.” Some brief thought about this reveals that it is not a limitation of God’s power to ask Him to be something other than what He is, or do things which are not in His nature to do (i.e., nothings).
 
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phuong:
You might have seen this question/answers before from a non-believer. Not sure if I have a good reply, so would like to poke on some of the minds in this forum 🙂 What would be yours?

“If God is truly omnipotent (all powerful), can he created a rock that’s so heavy that he cannot lift it?” If he can’t than he’s not all that powerful; if he can, he’s not all that powerful!
Actually God did a similar thing with the church’s interpretation of the what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven verses.

Jesus made the “rock” so big and powerfull, that He can’t even overide its binds in heaven.

Peace
 
Ask him to draw you a square with only three sides, or a triangle with four sides. When he says that can’t be done because by definition a square has four sides and a triangle three. Explain that what you asked really has no meaning. It’s just a bunch of words put together to form a sentence. They’re statements that by definition can’t be done and amount basically to giberish. That’s exactly what he’s asking of you.
 
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