A question about Purgatory.

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The question is important. Is Paradise the same as Purgatory or was Abraham’s Bosom the same as Pugatory? The right answer is that when we get to Heaven God will reveal the answer to us.
On the other hand let me use human knowledge to attempt this.The answer is a yes and no.
Yes: Why did God not allow Abraham and the holy men and women of the Old Testament into Heaven? When man fell all plans of God was derailed. Sin separated us from God and in His mercy He decided to send His Son to die for us and wash away our sins with His Precious Blood. Until that happenned all holy souls carry the scar of original sin and must be kept waiting in Paradise until the day that the Precious Blood of Jesus will purge of the scar of sin. That state of Paradise will be purgatory to the holy souls.
No: God’s special relationship with the holy souls of Abraham, Moses, David etc will make Him set them apart from any purging with the spiritual fire. They will be in that sweet place called Paradise which I believe will be in the same state as the first Paradise except that no evil will enter. Purgatory will exist alongside to purge the souls of those who might have died in the state of grace but had lots of scars to purge of.
The Jewish concept of the Land of the Dead is a large country divided into regions separated by barriers imposible to cross over. One region is Hell which accomodate the wicked. Another is Paradise which accomodates those holy souls waiting for the Lord. I believe there will be a region called Purgatory.
 
I believe in Purgatory. I believe that everything that constitues this world is of God, bu God, through God and for God. I believe our faith is to sustain us when we can’t answer precisely any questions regarding the whys and wherefore’s of this life. I believe in a loving God (else there would be no Jesus), I believe in the Saints adn their visions of things we can’t explain. I believe our minds as humans can’t fully wrap around anything we don’t understand or see (hence we have science). Through our faith and beliefs we do know that Jesus came to save us and will come again. If we believe He is the Just Judge and has extraordinary Mercy, then the belief of Purgatory is not so far-fetched.

As we are sinful by nature, I believe that not many die in the odor of sancity, yet they are not sinful enough to warrant Hell. So it makes sense that the Just Judge would give us a place of purification. Jesus has stated He wants all souls to go to heaven Fatima prayer), this makes me believe that there is a place for purification.

Just some thoughts of mine.

God Bless!
 
Daniel_Dugan said:
The question is important. Is Paradise the same as Purgatory or was Abraham’s Bosom the same as Pugatory? The right answer is that when we get to Heaven God will reveal the answer to us.
On the other hand let me use human knowledge to attempt this.The answer is a yes and no.
Yes: Why did God not allow Abraham and the holy men and women of the Old Testament into Heaven? When man fell all plans of God was derailed. Sin separated us from God and in His mercy He decided to send His Son to die for us and wash away our sins with His Precious Blood. Until that happenned all holy souls carry the scar of original sin and must be kept waiting in Paradise until the day that the Precious Blood of Jesus will purge of the scar of sin. That state of Paradise will be purgatory to the holy souls.
No: God’s special relationship with the holy souls of Abraham, Moses, David etc will make Him set them apart from any purging with the spiritual fire. They will be in that sweet place called Paradise which I believe will be in the same state as the first Paradise except that no evil will enter. Purgatory will exist alongside to purge the souls of those who might have died in the state of grace but had lots of scars to purge of.
The Jewish concept of the Land of the Dead is a large country divided into regions separated by barriers imposible to cross over. One region is Hell which accomodate the wicked. Another is Paradise which accomodates those holy souls waiting for the Lord. I believe there will be a region called Purgatory.
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Paradise cannot be the same as Purgatory. There is no suffering or purging of sin in Paradise or else it could not be called “Paradise.” There is suffering and purging of sins in Purgatory.

Those holy souls in Abraham’s bosom/Limbo were waiting for Jesus to open the gates of heaven so that they could enter into heaven. Until Jesus redeemed them from original sin by His death and resurrection, they could not enter the beatific vision even though they had no personal sin remaining to be atoned for.

There is a barrier between Purgatory and Heaven, but when all of a person’s personal sins are atoned for, Jesus releases him/her from this prison and they then enjoy the beatific vision with God, His angels, and His saints.
 
Shin said:
The existence of the fires of Purgatory for temporal punishment and venial sins is a Catholic dogma, and so by the way are indulgences.

[See Ludwig Ott’s Fundamental’s of Catholic Dogma, F.X Schouppe’s Purgatory, etc.]
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Regarding the “fires of Purgatory,” could you please point to a magisterial document (and not a theologian’s work) to support your position? Thanks.

Blessings
 
The duration of purgatory can be both short and long.

It could last just the “twinkinling of an eye” but seem like a long time for those enduring it.

Ask any boxer if three minutes in a round seems like three minutes or longer.

Time in purgatory and time in Heaven and Hell are different that time on Earth.
 
INNOCENT IV 1243-1254
COUNCIL OF LYONS I 1245

From the letter “Sub Catholicae” to the Bishop of Tusculum, of the Legation of the Apostolic

456 23. Finally, since Truth in the Gospel asserts that “if anyone shall utter blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, neither in this life nor in the future will it be forgiven him” [cf. Matt. 12:32], by this it is granted that certain sins of the present be understood which, however, are forgiven in the future life, and since the Apostle says that “fire will test the work of each one, of what kind it is,” and " if any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" 1 Cor 3:13,15], and since these same Greeks truly and undoubtedly are said to believe and to affirm that the souls of those who after a penance has been received yet not performed, or who, without mortal sin yet die with venial and slight sin, can be cleansed after death and can be helped by the suffrages of the Church, we, since they say a place of purgation of this kind has not been indicated to them with a certain and proper name by their teachers, we indeed, calling it purgatory according to the traditions and authority of the Holy Fathers, wish that in the future it be called by that name in their area. For in that transitory fire certainly sins, though not criminal or capital, which before have not been remitted through penance but were small and minor sins, are cleansed, and these weigh heavily even after death, if they have been forgiven in this life.

457 24. Moreover, if anyone without repentance dies in mortal sin, without a doubt he is tortured forever by the flames of eternal hell.–25. But the souls of children after the cleansing of baptism, and of adults also who depart in charity and who are bound neither by sin nor unto any satisfaction for sin itself, at once pass quickly to their eternal fatherland.
 
CCC

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on
Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
The existence and form of the punishments of purgatory is part of the tradition of the Church, and the fires thereof are witnessed throughout the lives of the saints and their experiences with purgatory.

These fires, like the fires of Hell, and the crucifixion all are a part of the fundamental teaching that for justice’s sake, there has to be punishment to balance out the scales of sin.

I suggest reading St. Catherine of Genoa’s work on purgatory, and F.X. Schouppe’s work in particular. 🙂
 
My understanding of this goes as such…

Jesus told the thief…I am telling you today, you WILL be with me in paradise.

Jesus never said they were going to paradise that day.

In fact, Jesus even told Mary that he hadn’t yet went to his Father after his resurrection.

He simply said to the thief, I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Not, I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Most translations put the comma in the wrong place and that makes the world of difference.
 
Good Morning! Seems to me we all get caught up in what our minds can’t wrap totally around. I don’t don’t see how we can define anything truly that is asscoiated with God. I say this beacuse in reality we can’t even define Him, who created us. We have our ideas certainly, but God is unintelligeble in our imaginations. His Powers are beyond our comprenhension. It seems we have trouble struggling with explaning our own realm of the world. The tangiable is where we are best at.

References to Purgatory are made in the Bible or to something very similar. Several Saints have made detailed descriptions of their visions of Purgatory and that of Hell also.

Myself, I truly hope my belief in purgatory is sound. If there were no puragatory, where would most of us end up? The “odor of sancity” is hard to attain in this earthly existence, if there is no hope of purity of soul after death, then we are doomed.

Whether time is measured this way or that way is not important. If what is being taught is correct, the soul while being purified is not aware of anything but longing for God. However the time is measured, as the soul is purified, it draws more of God’s Light into it. Thus the soul expierences joy as well. The pain I heard described is very simialr to hell. With one difference though, there is the knowledge of complete and absolute love for God at the end of the stay. Isn’t this what many Saints who died and went straight to Heaven achieved here on earth through their sufferings?

I think the whole idea is to love and honor God as much as possible in this life, in a state of grace with God. Then purgatory wouldn’t be so scary or mystical to people.

Just some thoughts!

God Bless!
 
CHILDHOODTIMES:
If the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

TIETJEN:
As Catholics, we do not limit God (Christ in this case). If Jesus Christ says that “today” you will be with me in Heaven, then that man was in Heaven that day.

SRFERDAVE:
In addition to this… We are told that some of our purging can be done here on earth. Since that man suffered a horrible death on the cross, maybe that was part or all of his purgatory punishment.​

THE KEY WORD THERE IS MERCY. Don’t bother quantifying or qualifying God’s love. He gives it according to HIS WILL.
 
The thief was not in heaven on Good Friday (today) because Jesus was not in heaven on Good Friday either. Jesus had not yet ascended into heaven on the day (Sunday) of His resurrection so He could not have possibly ascended into heaven on Good Friday. Please take note of John 20:17 in this linked Scripture passage John 20:1-18.
**
There were no commas in the original manuscripts. **

Perhaps the original meaning is this:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Either that or they both went to Abraham’s bosom (a type of paradise) on Friday in order to be with all the other righteous persons who had been patiently waiting for Jesus to die on the cross since Adam’s Original Sin Romans 5. No one could enter into heaven until Jesus re-opened the gates of heaven after His sacrificial death on the cross. Genesis 3:23-24, Luke 16:19-26

Paul states that Jesus also went to preach to the spirits in prison (purgatory) while He was awaiting His resurrection on Sunday. Some of these imprisoned spirits were those people who repented while they were drowning during the flood of Noah’s time. 1 Peter 3:18-20, Luke 12:58-59 They must be refined by fire until they have paid for their sins. They were saved because they repented while drowning, but they did not have time to be purified of the consequences of their sins before their deaths. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 Everyone must do works/bear fruits worthy of repentance in order to satisfy Divine Justice. They had no time to do them before they died. Matthew 3:8

No person could ascend into heaven until Jesus re-opened the gates of heaven. Not even Enoch and Elijah. They must have ascended to a paradise like Abraham’s bosom instead.

John 3:13
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
 
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