A question about Purgatory.

[Shin]

What kind of sin did you commit that you would go without food for 3 days and abstain from media for as long?!? Why would you invent your own suffering? And abstaining from food has nothing to do with forgiveness of sin…where are you from? And even if you confess to a priest, it doesn’t mean that you are forgiven those sins. Unless you are truly repentant of your sins no forgiveness can be granted.
In completion of the question… The thief was forgiven when he asked Christ’s forgiveness. There was no need for the thief to go through any more suffering. The thief was with Christ that day, soon after his death on a cross, thieves were crucified back then too. God doesn’t mince words. When God says you will be with Him that day, you will be with Him that day.

There’s a reason penance and repentance are often referred to in the same place.

One does have to do penance – the good thief accepted his penance, that’s why he was forgiven. Abstaining from media and fasting are good forms of penance.

Yes, ‘inventing your own suffering’ if you must put it that way is often part of what it means to be a real Catholic. It’s called mortification and/or penance. You do it. If you don’t, your soul is not in good shape.

When you do it, you both improve your soul’s merit, detachment, and take care of the punishment due your sins at once.

 

[jlhargus]

There’s a reason penance and repentance are often referred to in the same place.

One does have to do penance – the good thief accepted his penance, that’s why he was forgiven. Abstaining from media and fasting are good forms of penance.

Yes, ‘inventing your own suffering’ if you must put it that way is often part of what it means to be a real Catholic. It’s called mortification and/or penance. You do it. If you don’t, your soul is not in good shape.

When you do it, you both improve your soul’s merit, detachment, and take care of the punishment due your sins at once.

JL: AMEN

 

[jlhargus]

You try hard but nothing again says about purgatory…

The world to come is Heaven and not Purgatory, there are no 3 worlds but 2. As for the sin that can’t be forgiven, is because if you renounce the Holy Spirit and you die there is no returning after that. What we do on this world will be the reason to enter or not the Kingdom of God. Committing suicide for example is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit since our body is His Temple and we disgrace it.He doesn’t postulate anything like that. The same thing goes on with many different verses of scriptures today. Just because He says can’t be forgiven in this world or the other to come does not mean that other sins can be forgiven there…
Just because the Scriptures say that Mary came with Jesus brothers, doesn’t mean that His brothers are Mary’s children…many people try to manipulate the Bible as Lawyers(I say again) but when you face the Judge-there is no way to trick Him or fool Him or any secret special window to enter the Kingdom of God.
Sorry I can’t continue I have more to say about this but I have to leave right now…
God Bless

JL: Do you pray for the dead, if so, why if there is no purgatory?

 

[adriancombe]

As scholars, these men should not be bound to the doctrines of the Catholic Church as they make their way, intellectually, into the past… As priests, these men should be bound to the dogmas of our Church, but as scholars, they should have free rein to investigate.

Believe in contradictory sets of propositions depending on whether they are functioning as priests or scholars? Sounds like a good recipe for schizophrenia.

As G.K. Chesterton said, only the truth could be around long enough to be considered old-fashioned.

 

[Chrysostom324]

Believe in contradictory sets of propositions depending on whether they are functioning as priests or scholars? Sounds like a good recipe for schizophrenia.

As G.K. Chesterton said, only the truth could be around long enough to be considered old-fashioned.

I appreciate the comment, but as long as scholars are browbeat into churning out pro-Catholic documents, they’re never going to find the truth. WHAT is so wrong with allowing interested, qualified persons dig into the past with an open, unbiased mind, and just seeing what their conclusions are?

BTW I have yet to see a citation from a scholar of any religion since 1900 who interprets 1 Corinthians 3 as a proof-text of Purgatory.

 

[Chrysostom324]

I will point out to you an earlier post #108 by Godfollower. Perhaps you missed it. The Church has infallibly defined the meaning of the verse. It uses it as Scriptural support for its doctrine on purgatory.

CCC 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608​

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439) : DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563) : DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) : DS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.

Since Pope Paul VI was already complaining about the “smoke of Satan” infiltrating the Church in the form of corrupt clerics in the 60’s, I would bet (and win) that there are now many more “wolves in sheep’s clothing” within the Church right now “pretending” to be Catholic, than there ever were in Pope VI’s time.

I know about Brown because I make it my business to learn about “scholars” such as he and his cohorts. However, the ordinary man in the pew has no idea who Brown is or what he teaches and so they would not know to discount his “scholarship.”

You, who do know about Brown et al, do not even know that the CCC teaches that 1 Cor 3:15 refers to purgatory and so we can’t expect others less informed than you are to know that Brown’s teachings are not in accordance with Catholic Dogma. So, this is why I do not believe that the Pope personally knows that Brown is teaching contrary to Catholic dogma.

Pax,
SHW

While the Catechism is an outstanding reference, it is not infallible, and therefore, has no binding authority on my conscience. I am unaware of any infallible interpretation of ANY scripture.

 

[SHW]

While the Catechism is an outstanding reference, it is not infallible, and therefore, has no binding authority on my conscience. I am unaware of any infallible interpretation of ANY scripture.

Hey Chrysostom,

Are you sure about that? Proof please!

Pax,
SHW

 

[CWBetts]

While the Catechism is an outstanding reference, it is not infallible, and therefore, has no binding authority on my conscience. I am unaware of any infallible interpretation of ANY scripture.

So let me make sure I understand this correctly. A Catholic can just reject anything in the Catechism he doeesn’t agree with?

 

[thevickinator16]

My thought about “proof” of Purgatory is the following:

If there is no purgatory, then to enter heaven, we would have to be in a state of totals purification when we died. Is that correct?

Since most of us are not going to be saints when we die, that would leave us with one alternative–Hell. I think I like the idea of Purgatory better than not believing in it.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless!

 

[Godfollower]

I appreciate the comment, but as long as scholars are browbeat into churning out pro-Catholic documents, they’re never going to find the truth. WHAT is so wrong with allowing interested, qualified persons dig into the past with an open, unbiased mind, and just seeing what their conclusions are?

BTW I have yet to see a citation from a scholar of any religion since 1900 who interprets 1 Corinthians 3 as a proof-text of Purgatory.

Would you accept Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now known as Pope Benedict XVI?

In the wake of this brief historical sketch, the question remains: What is the authentic heart of the doctrine of Purgatory? What is its rationale? In listening in to the patristic discussion, we had occasion to mention First Corinthians 3, 10 15. For this text, there is a foundation, Jesus Christ, on which some build with gold, silver and precious stones, and others with wood, hay and straw. What each one has in fact built will be brought to light by the Day of the Lord .

…it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

J. Gnilka has shown that this testing fire indicates the coming Lord himself. Echoing a passage from the prophet Isaiah, it is

an image for the majesty of the self revealed God … the unapproachability of the All Holy.

Joseph Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life (1988), pp. 228-29.

And, of course, when you say you haven’t seen a citation from any scholar of any religion since 1900 who accepts 1 Corinthians 3:15 as discussing Purgatory, you’re dismissing all the scholars who worked on the Catechism, not just the Catechism itself.

 

[jlhargus]

but as long as scholars are browbeat into churning out pro-Catholic documents, they’re never going to find the truth.

JL: I listen to the magisterium over scholars no matter how brilliant the mind.
It looks as though you think scholars are more qualified to define truth than those whom Christ has given the Holy Spirit and placed in the Church to guarantee the truth is taught. I’m not sure that is how you meant this, it just looks that way.

I’m not aware of scholars being browbeat until they, or those who follow them, start teaching their opinions as truth causing confusion in the Church.

WHAT is so wrong with allowing interested, qualified persons dig into the past with an open, unbiased mind, and just seeing what their conclusions are?

JL: Nothing, I have no problem with scholars going far afield, even when wrong. It can still bring better understanding and clarification of a truth. I often understand a point of doctrine more clearly when a non-Catholic comes on line with a far out position. I have to look at the teaching from an entirely different prospective, but it doesn’t change the truth.

BTW I have yet to see a citation from a scholar of any religion since 1900 who interprets 1 Corinthians 3 as a proof-text of Purgatory.

JL: I think 2000 years of tradition and the fact it is in the CCC, compiled by scholars, should hold more weight than a modern theory, and that is all it is a theory or opinion.

 

[golfjack]

Let’s see what the Bible says about purification in Heb. 9:22: Without shedding of blood there is no remission ( v. 22). This is one of God’s imperativers. Without the atoning blood of the Lord Jesus there is no remission of past, present, or future sins. Unless the sinner is cleansed from sin by the blood of God the Son, there is no remission at all. Without shedding of blood there is:

a. No justification
b. no redemptiion
c. No forgiveness
d. No atonement
e. No sanctification
f. No victory.

Well, what do you guys say now? I believe your problem is that you probably don’t know what part of man is purified. It is our recreated spirits at the New Birth.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Chrysostom324]

JL: I listen to the magisterium over scholars no matter how brilliant the mind.
It looks as though you think scholars are more qualified to define truth than those whom Christ has given the Holy Spirit and placed in the Church to guarantee the truth is taught. I’m not sure that is how you meant this, it just looks that way.

I’m not aware of scholars being browbeat until they, or those who follow them, start teaching their opinions as truth causing confusion in the Church.

JL: Nothing, I have no problem with scholars going far afield, even when wrong. It can still bring better understanding and clarification of a truth. I often understand a point of doctrine more clearly when a non-Catholic comes on line with a far out position. I have to look at the teaching from an entirely different prospective, but it doesn’t change the truth.

JL: I think 2000 years of tradition and the fact it is in the CCC, compiled by scholars, should hold more weight than a modern theory, and that is all it is a theory or opinion.

All right. I think we’ve gotten way off topic. I’ll concede that Benedict XVI is a trump card, and therefore, I’ll yield the point to you and the other guy, but still, there still hasn’t been any sound exegesis of the passage that would point to a purgatorial understanding. The context clearly denies it. As we’ve discussed, the top Catholic biblical scholars (liberal though, apparently) have opined that it was no purgatorial overtone. I would have just liked to have seen your interpretation of the passage supported directly by exegesis. In any case, I’ll submit the end of this argument because I feel it is descending into a conservative vs. liberal melee and therefore deserves its final euthanasia.

P.S. jlhargus: If you cannot justify in your own mind why you trust the Magisterium over all reason (as you yourself said, not I), then I suggest you should do some independent study of the history of the church’s power. Beware the aggrandizing traditions of men.

 

[SHW]

…I suggest you should do some independent study of the history of the church’s power. Beware the aggrandizing traditions of men.

Since the pope and magisterium have the final authority given to them by Jesus in matters concerning faith and morals, then we must obey them. This is Scriptural. It is not “the aggrandizing traditions of men.”

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

Hebrews 13:7 " Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct."

Matthew 18:17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”

What if they are evil men?

Matthew 23:1-3 “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”

The pope and magisterium have Jesus’ authority to represent Him on earth in the same capacity as the scribes and Pharisees sat in Mose’s seat of authority in Jesus’ time on earth. We cannot change this fact so it’s best to accept it instead of causing dissension and thereby sinning by implying that these are but “aggrandizing traditions of men” and undermining the authority of the pope and magisterium by these comments.

We may have to not emulate their personal behavior because of their personal sinfulness, but we must obey them since they cannot error in matters of faith and morals. They are prevented from teaching error by the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us we must obey what they say to do even though they personally may not be paragons of virtue themselves just as the scribes and Pharisees were not paragons of virtue in Jesus’ day. He called them hypocrites and whitewashed tombs.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Jesus prevents His Church from teaching error due to the Holy Spirit’s guidance which Jesus promised until He returns (Matthew 28:20). The individual men can sin, but His Church cannot error in matters of faith and morals.

John 16:13 “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Daniel_Dugan]

I believe we must first quote Our Lord right. Jesus said to the Good Thief: (Quoting from Christian Community Bible: Catholic Pastoral Edition). TRULY, YOU WILL BE WITH ME TODAY IN PARADISE. This was after the Good Thief made this passionate appeal: Jesus Remember Me When You Come Into Your Kingdom.( St. Luke’s Gospel: Chap. 23: 42-43)
The Thief was talking about Jesus’ Kingdom, and Jesus was talking about Paradise. There are two different things here. Jesus’ Kingdom is the Kingdom of God or Heaven, a place where all believers and non-believers want to be.
All through the Gospel Jesus spoke about Heaven and mentioned the Kingdom of God, My Father’s Kingdom, etc. He never mentioned Paradise as Heaven, so why would He tell the Good Thief that he will be with Him in Paradise if Paradise were the Kingdom of God? Jesus would not and the reason is that He was indeed going to Paradise after His death. He did not go to Heaven. The Credo stated that clearly…was crucxified, died and was buried. He descended into hell…
During Jesus’ time, the Jews compared the Place of Death as a huge country divided into regions seperated by insurmountable barriers. Hell was one of them reserved for the wicked. And another is Paradise or Limbo where the good people awaited the Resurrection.
This Paradise was visited by Jesus to release souls of the righteous and I believe after the Resurrection, this abode became Purgatory and the Good Thief was perhaps the first tenant. Paradise was the transit quarters for the righteous souls of people like David, Moses etc. They were kept there because of the stain of original sin, which was purged when Christ shed His Precious Blood for all souls.
So the Good Thief was pardoned by Jesus at that Hour of Divine Grace and Mercy. He still had to do time in purgatory and the Lord clearly told him that ‘Old boy, you will first go to purgatory before I welcome you into my Kingdom.’ Jesus told us of the existence of this Place called Purgatory…Those who have ears, listen
Daniel Dugan.

 

[SHW]

I believe we must first quote Our Lord right. Jesus said to the Good Thief: (Quoting from Christian Community Bible: Catholic Pastoral Edition). TRULY, YOU WILL BE WITH ME TODAY IN PARADISE. This was after the Good Thief made this passionate appeal: Jesus Remember Me When You Come Into Your Kingdom.( St. Luke’s Gospel: Chap. 23: 42-43)
The Thief was talking about Jesus’ Kingdom, and Jesus was talking about Paradise. There are two different things here. Jesus’ Kingdom is the Kingdom of God or Heaven, a place where all believers and non-believers want to be.
All through the Gospel Jesus spoke about Heaven and mentioned the Kingdom of God, My Father’s Kingdom, etc. He never mentioned Paradise as Heaven, so why would He tell the Good Thief that he will be with Him in Paradise if Paradise were the Kingdom of God? Jesus would not and the reason is that He was indeed going to Paradise after His death. He did not go to Heaven. The Credo stated that clearly…was crucxified, died and was buried. He descended into hell…
During Jesus’ time, the Jews compared the Place of Death as a huge country divided into regions seperated by insurmountable barriers. Hell was one of them reserved for the wicked. And another is Paradise or Limbo where the good people awaited the Resurrection.
This Paradise was visited by Jesus to release souls of the righteous and I believe after the Resurrection, this abode became Purgatory and the Good Thief was perhaps the first tenant. Paradise was the transit quarters for the righteous souls of people like David, Moses etc. They were kept there because of the stain of original sin, which was purged when Christ shed His Precious Blood for all souls.
So the Good Thief was pardoned by Jesus at that Hour of Divine Grace and Mercy. He still had to do time in purgatory and the Lord clearly told him that ‘Old boy, you will first go to purgatory before I welcome you into my Kingdom.’ Jesus told us of the existence of this Place called Purgatory…Those who have ears, listen
Daniel Dugan.

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. It would help if we knew for certain if Paradise in this Scripture means heaven or Abraham’s bosom. I do believe that purgatory existed** in addition to** Abraham’s bosom, instead of Abraham’s bosom/limbo turning into purgatory, however.

Purgatory purges with fire until persons are made perfect, but Abraham’s bosom was a place of rest and peace. Its inhabitants were waiting for Jesus to open the gates of heaven.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Godfollower]

There are only three things the Church teaches definitively about Purgatory. First, some people who end up in Heaven will be purified after they die but before they enter Heaven. Second, that purification will involve some sort of pain (Scripture speaks of a cleansing fire), though we do not necessarily think that it’s a punishing pain (like a spanking) as opposed to a cleansing pain (like a medical procedure). Third, the prayers of the living can, if God accepts it in a particular case, assist the purification process.

The rest is mere theological speculation. Will it last a specific time? We don’t know. How will it work? We don’t know. Will we be with other people, or will it be a solitary experience? We don’t know. Is it the same place that was the abode of the dead prior to the opening of Heaven and Hell? We don’t know. Is it even a specific place (as opposed to, say, an event that happens between judgment and “Welcome to Heaven!”)? We don’t know.

And, frankly, we don’t care. If you make it to Purgatory, you know that you will eventually end up in Heaven, just as soon as the purification process is complete. That might mean one instant later, and it might not, but so what? There is no time in Heaven, so no matter how long the purification process lasts (if it takes any time at all), you’ll still spend eternity in Heaven.

As for whether there are more places in the afterlife than Heaven and Hell, Scripture clearly teaches that there are. At the last judgment, Jesus will say to those on His right, “Come into the house prepared by My Father” – that is, enter Heaven (so they aren’t in Heaven yet). He will then say to those on His Left, “Enter into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” – that is, enter Hell (so they aren’t in Hell yet).

So, where are they standing? It’s in the afterlife, but it isn’t Heaven and it isn’t Hell. Clearly there is some other, third place in the afterlife. Now, mind you, that particular place where they’re standing isn’t a final destination; but the Church teaches that Purgatory isn’t a final destination either. It’s just something that happens on the way to Heaven, for those of us who still harbor some impurity despite having been deemed worthy to enter Heaven, that makes us pure so we can enter Heaven.

 

[SHW]

As for whether there are more places in the afterlife than Heaven and Hell, Scripture clearly teaches that there are. At the last judgment, Jesus will say to those on His right, “Come into the house prepared by My Father” – that is, enter Heaven (so they aren’t in Heaven yet). He will then say to those on His Left, “Enter into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” – that is, enter Hell (so they aren’t in Hell yet).

So, where are they standing? It’s in the afterlife, but it isn’t Heaven and it isn’t Hell. Clearly there is some other, third place in the afterlife. Now, mind you, that particular place where they’re standing isn’t a final destination; but the Church teaches that Purgatory isn’t a final destination either. It’s just something that happens on the way to Heaven, for those of us who still harbor some impurity despite having been deemed worthy to enter Heaven, that makes us pure so we can enter Heaven.

The Catholic Church teaches that as soon as we die, we have our own particular judgment. We then go to either heaven, or to a purgatorial state/place, or to hell. We all meet Christ again together at the General Judgment so that everyone present knows “why” we are chosen for our particular eternal abodes which will either be heaven or hell. Purgatory ends before this Last Judgment.

Pax,
SHW

 

[childhoodtimes]

abrahams bossom and purgatory is one!! according to our national catholic radio station defending purgatory

:thumbsup:thanks!!!

 

[SHW]

abrahams bossom and purgatory is one!! according to our national catholic radio station defending purgatory

:thumbsup:thanks!!!

Not everyone who was waiting for Jesus to open the gates of heaven was in purgatory. Abraham’s bosom is also known as Limbo, not purgatory. Whoever stated that purgatory was Abraham’s bosom on National Catholic Radio is in error. Purgatory is not Abraham’s bosom.

We all make mistakes. I have made many myself.

Pax,
SHW