A question about Purgatory.

[Chrysostom324]

I’m really sorry. My initials are jk. Bad habit I got into on other boards. You are quite right in suggesting that ambrose and augustine referred to the passage as proof of Purgatory, but I’m unaware of any exegesis that proves that the passage refers to purgation. Modern scholars of all faiths are fairly unified upon this issue.

jk-my initials again

 

[CWBetts]

It is not the case that “no unforgiven sin means no Purgatory.” It doesn’t work that way.

If one has a mortal sin, and it is forgiven, one is ultimately Heaven-bound, but one must endure some of Paul’s 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 fire.

By indulgences, this burning in Purgatory may be reduced or eliminated. I’m not sure that there is an ultimate doctrinal distinction between payment of temoral punishment on Earth and indulgences granted. Note well: The thieves wouldn’t have been “whispering sweet nothings” between each other and Christ. The Good Thief would have been YELLING to the other thief and to Christ. So, the audience (including the Gospel’s Sacred Author’s source) would have heard the astonishing words of the Good Thief accpting his punishment as just, and humbly attesting to Christ’s goodness. I agree with the poster up above – crucifixion is punishment enough for a thief!!! And, instead of being angry, he humbly supports Christ (after Peter and the other Apostles abandoned Him!). So, Christ to achieve perfect justice declares his – the Good Thief’s – temporal punishment remitted.

So, the man’s humble acceptance of his fate and honoring of Christ = “Baptism of Desire” or “Baptism of Blood.” No Hell for him, now. And then when he suffers crucifixion and, instead of being defiant, he YELLS OUT his astonishing public defense of Christ, Christ converts his crucifixion with Christ into the man’s temporal punishment, by declaring it to be so. So, he earns Heaven immediately by His crucifixion.

It all hangs together.

Thank you! I am still quite new to Catholicism, and i have found there to be a rather steep learning curve!

 

[thevickinator16]

Hello everybody!

I have an interesting web-site on St. Catherine of Genoa’s expierence with Purgatory. It is truly fascinating and gives one a truly in-depth look at purgatory. Her words are much better than mine and she expioerence purgatory while on earth. it seems many Saints did this. Please take the time to read it, it takes about 5 minutes at the most.

www.catholictreasury.info/book/treatise_on_purgatory

I think everyone who reads this will be surprised at what we really will expierence!

Hope this helps.

God Bless from the Mercy swimmer!

 

[Faith_at_Large]

Hi Faith, Is the dictator still at Spero? Why does the Bible in James 1:21 say that the Word is able to save our souls ( our minds , man’s intellect, emotions, and will)? You see, it is up to us to do this. God has done all He is ever going to do about saving us. You see, the way I think sometimes is certainly not a New Creature in Christ Jesus ( 2 Cor. 5:17). This is why I should renew my mind with God’s Word.

 Peace,   Golfjack

The Bible is correct, and so is James. His Word is able to save our souls. But what does that have to do with the topic at hand? You cannot use the Bible against itself.

Please read the rest of that passage:

James 1:22-27 *"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion [is] vain.

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world."*

If you knew all that James said about the matter you would not that being all talk and no action is a waste of time. No use in having a dead faith.

Lipservice and showing off with “signs and wonders” does not cut it with God.

Matthew 24:24, Mark 13:22, 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, and especially:

Matthew 7:20-23 *"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." *

Do you not believe in the resurrection of the body? And if not, why not? And if so, do you not realize that it starts with your own flesh and blood body?

 

[golfjack]

FAL, When I die physcicaly ( if I do), my spirit and soul go to heaven. As far as my body goes, it will decay and is usless after I die. But, I will receive a brand new glorified body while in heaven, probably after being judged at the judgment seat of Christ. This judgment is not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgment, where the lost will be judged after the Millennial reign of Christ.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[scottywolf777]

FAL, When I die physcicaly ( if I do), my spirit and soul go to heaven. As far as my body goes, it will decay and is usless after I die. But, I will receive a brand new glorified body while in heaven, probably after being judged at the judgment seat of Christ. This judgment is not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgment, where the lost will be judged after the Millennial reign of Christ.

    Peace,   Golfjack

Well good luck with that! As far as not dying, there’s only one historical case for sure and that’s Elijah and maybe Enoch and I don’t really think you’re going to be an exception to the rule when even Jesus and the Vrigin Mary died (before being assumed into heaven).
I have an interesting twist on Paschal’s wager for you. Suppose there’s no purgatory,like you NOW do believe (since you’ve admitted to being a backslidden catholic) then my praying for those souls and doing all that I can to avoid ending up there won’t count against me because i approached it all in good faith based on the light that God gave me and my final judgement will reflect that. It may even grant merit.Especially since my good deeds are done out of love for God and his people. Now on the other hand if I believed it was all a done deal and didn’t take care of God’s will and plan for me and what he asks me to do wouldn’t I be a bad servant and deserve punishment? (Note Matthew 21:28-32.) And to take this even one step further, what if because i beleived it was all a done deal and REALLY neglected my salvation (instead of working it out with fear and trembling {note Phillipians 2:12}) taking God’s forgiveness and grace for granted might not find myself like those folks in Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus says he doesn’t even know them? That kind of presumption lands one in HELL!kpeople:
If you don’t believe in Hell you might may still end up there and purgatory is the same remember even if you do find yourself there it’s just that last stop before heaven OK? It’s the utlimate sign of HIS [mercy!/B]

 

[PJM]

I’m afraid you’re mistaken. The Catechism of the Catholic Church expressly cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 (the passage in question) as referring to Purgatory. St. Augustine said it referred to Purgatory. St. Ambrose said it referred to Purgatory. Catholic Answers says it refers to Purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas says it refers to Purgatory.

I’d say that’s some pretty reputable scholarship.

Great responce!

Concise,chairitable and supported by facts.

Well done good and faithful servant.:clapping::tiphat:

 

[Godfollower]

I’m really sorry. My initials are jk. Bad habit I got into on other boards. You are quite right in suggesting that ambrose and augustine referred to the passage as proof of Purgatory, but I’m unaware of any exegesis that proves that the passage refers to purgation. Modern scholars of all faiths are fairly unified upon this issue.

jk-my initials again

That’s okay; there’re always misunderstandings when we’re communicating through writing.

As to your point: what scholars are you talking about? I’m not aware of any Catholic scholars who argue that 1 Corinthians doesn’t refer to Purgatory. There are a few Protestants who argue that it doesn’t, but they really have to reach to do it, and they probably wouldn’t if it weren’t for their theology that no Purgatory exists. As for modern Biblical scholarship, the Catechism itself cites 1 Corinthians 3:15 as referring to Purgatory:

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.[SUP]606[/SUP] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[SUP]607[/SUP]

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[SUP]608[/SUP]​

[SUP]606[/SUP] Cf. Council of Florence (1439) : DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563) : DS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) : DS 1000.
[SUP]607[/SUP] Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
[SUP]608[/SUP] St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.

Catechism of the Catholic Church para. 1031.

 

[Chrysostom324]

I would be happy to provide these scholars for you:

I. J.A. Fitzmyer–perhaps the leading Pauline scholar in our world.
Commentary on 1 Corinthians
“that teaching [purgatory], however, freely accommodates not only the metaphorical sense of the these Pauline verses, but also other biblical passages . . .” " . . . so that Cevetello rightly recognizes that it is ‘based on tradition, not Sacred Scripture’" (201)

      "Verses 14-15 do not speak of a purification or refining by fire . . ." (202)

II. Richard P. McBrien
Catholicism
“There is, for all practical purposes, no biblical basis for the doctrine of Purgatory.”

III. The New Jerome Biblical Commentary edited by J. Murphy O’Connor, Raymond Brown, J.A. Fitzmyer, Roland Murphy
Commentary on 1 Corinthians 3
“There is no reference to Purgatory.” (802)

IV. New American Catholic Bible–St. Joseph’s Edition
Commentary on 1 Corinthians 3
“This text has been used to support the doctrine of Purgatory, though it does not envisage this.”

So you see, current Catholic scholarship does not see this passage as relevant to the Latin doctrine of Purgatory. I concede that Augustine, Gregory, and Ambrose saw it as such, but modern scholarship does not.

p.s. (Augustine’s Greek/Hebrew was, traditionally, a little weak)

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Modern Catholic “scholarship” that differs from the teaching of the Catholic Church is only “scholarship” from the devil’s perspective.

 

[CWBetts]

Modern Catholic “scholarship” that differs from the teaching of the Catholic Church is only “scholarship” from the devil’s perspective.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[SHW]

Modern Catholic “scholarship” that differs from the teaching of the Catholic Church is only “scholarship” from the devil’s perspective.

Amen.

Notice who the “scholars” are? Richard McBrien, Raymond Brown, and J.A. Fitzmyer. I wish these persons would leave the Catholic Church instead of undermining her from within! But, the reason they stay in is because they would have no clout if they left. Who would listen to them? The news media certainly would no longer be interviewing them, except for maybe when they first announced their “official” defection.

I wonder who “edited” the St. Joseph’s edition of the NAB and who provided the “commentary?”

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1994/sep1994p14_835.html

Anytime “scholars” disagree with the official teaching of the Catholic Church, we know who’s wrong, and it is not the Church!.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Shin]

Amen.

Notice who the “scholars” are? Richard McBrien, Raymond Brown, and J.A. Fitzmyer. I wish these persons would leave the Catholic Church instead of undermining her from within! But, the reason they stay in is because they would have no clout if they left. Who would listen to them? The news media certainly would no longer be interviewing them, except for maybe when they first announced their “official” defection.

I wonder who “edited” the St. Joseph’s edition of the NAB and who provided the “commentary?”

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1994/sep1994p14_835.html

Anytime “scholars” disagree with the official teaching of the Catholic Church, we know who’s wrong, and it is not the Church!.

Pax,
SHW

Notorious dissenters such as these will always be praised for their ‘scholarship’ by their dissenter buddies, it’s a glad handling crowd. Brown praised Fitzmyer, Fitzmyer praise McBrien, McBrien praises Brown, in their little circle of delusion.

 

[SHW]

Notorious dissenters such as these will always be praised for their ‘scholarship’ by their dissenter buddies, it’s a glad handling crowd. Brown praised Fitzmyer, Fitzmyer praise McBrien, McBrien praises Brown, in their little circle of delusion.

So true! I am happy to see some of our bishops vocalizing their displeasure about Obama speaking at Notre Dame. Alumni have promised to withhold $9 million in donations until President Jenkins is replaced. That school needs a good housecleaning to remove admin. and staff and I hope it happens soon. Where are the other bishops’ voices? Perhaps they will eventually be forming the American Catholic Church apart from Rome and if so, I think many CINOs will welcome this and join it.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Chrysostom324]

Well, since my people, the flower of modern-day Catholic scholarship, are apparently “delusional” and “liberal,” let’s see who the Catholic scholars are who interpret the verse in the way you see it.

As scholars, these men should not be bound to the doctrines of the Catholic Church as they make their way, intellectually, into the past. It is ridiculous to think that you will find the historical truth by starting with a conclusion in mind and “objectively” searching the past. That is called apologetics, and it’s why Catholics and Protestants will never agree. Both sides have made up their mind what truth is, regardless of facts. As priests, these men should be bound to the dogmas of our Church, but as scholars, they should have free rein to investigate.

 

[Chrysostom324]

A Couple More Questions:

If Brown was so liberal, then why did two popes appoint him to the Pontifical Biblical Commission? Why was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger so effusive in his praise of Brown when he died, saying he “would be very happy if we had many exegetes like Father Brown”.

 

[Faith_at_Large]

FAL, When I die physcicaly ( if I do), my spirit and soul go to heaven. As far as my body goes, it will decay and is usless after I die. But, I will receive a brand new glorified body while in heaven, probably after being judged at the judgment seat of Christ. This judgment is not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgment, where the lost will be judged after the Millennial reign of Christ.

    Peace,   Golfjack

When Lazarus was resurrected, granted not with a glorified body yet, did he not rise with his own body, or did Jesus just give him a new temporary loaner?

When Jesus rose from the dead, many came out of their own graves and appeared in Jerusalem - Matthew 27:53 - why did they have to come out of the graves - would Jesus not have provided them with loaner bodies too?

What about Jesus? He had a human body but if what you say is right, then why did he not leave His broken and bloody body to rot in the tomb where He had been laid? His is our principle example.

In Acts 24:15, both the just and the unjust shall be resurrected.

In 1 Corinthians 15, the dead are resurrected - we planted corruptable (our bodies can rot) and are raised incorruptable (we put on immortality). But most importantly, we are changed (verse 52). No where does it say that we will get a brand new body, but rather that our old body will be transformed.

In the Gospel, Jesus said that if our hand causes us to sin we are to cut it off, because it is better to enter Heaven without that hand than to enter Hell whole. Was Jesus referring to a spiritual hand? Our body will not be left in the ground, Moses’ body was brought to Heaven, Enoch and Elijah were physically/bodily brought to Heaven. Jesus brought His own body up to Heaven.

Paul even likens our bodies as a seed which must die before being transformed into something greater. What kind of seed rots entirely away to become dirt and yet produce a plant that is completely unconnected to it? How can our body be that “seed” for our new glorified, incorruptable bodies, if Jesus is going to give us entirely new bodies?

And then what happens to those bodies that are already in Heaven - Elijah, Moses, Enoch, Jesus?

 

[thevickinator16]

Hello! I thought that when we died, the physical body would end here. Our soul on the other hand would be the new body. As our souls are light and do not need a corporal body. The soul is what goes to purgatory and therefore to heaven.

Since I have read of several Saints visions of purgatory, I have come to believe this. They always talk of the soul, not of a body. I think we have problems wrapping our minds around not needing a corporal body. We think of ourselves as a being with flesh and blood, not as a soul housed within this framework.

Just my thoughts!

God Bless!

 

[PJM]

My dear friends in Christ,

I would like to offer two arguments that solidly support the RCC Dogma of Purgatory, Hell and Heaven.

Evidence of these can be easily discerned in Christrilogical Logic.

Jesus Christ is God

God by His very Divine unchangeable Nature is all Good and all good Perfectly

Fairness and Justice are “good things”

God therefore is and MUST BE both Fair & Just in order to be a “Good God”

So now that we agree on this foundation, lets review a story and see if we can determine on Gods “Fairness & Divine Justice” are brought into “play” as they relate to where humanity will spend eternity.

Before I do this, I hasten to point out, that it is our personal application of our intellect and freewill, that in the end determines where we will spend eternitiy. GOd’s “Judgement” is but an affirmation of our own freewill choices and decessions.

THE STORY:

I am by today’s standards a moderately successful business person. You steal $50.00 from me and I catch up with you at your home.

When I confront you with your theif, you don’t deny it, but refuse to return the money to me.

In anger, I kill you, and as I run out of your house, I am run over and killed.

Now we both have died with un-confessed, un-forgiven sins. You for stealing $50.00 from me, and me for killing you.

QUESTION

Is, actually can, God judge us exactly the same. In other words, does the seriousness of our unrepented and unconfessed sins, make any difference? ** Simple fairness and juctice would certainly didcate such a position!**

So, in the case stated above, I’m going to Hell for killing you, and not having repented or Confessed my sin.

You on the other hand [assuming you have to Mortal sins that have not been confessed or repented of] will at some point enter heaven. [See John 20:23, and 1 John 5:].

I say “at some point” because God is PERFECT and desires that we to be perfected before
we can enter heaven.[James 1: 2-4, Mt. 19: 21, Mt. 16:19, Jn.20;21,** Mt. 5:48.

The second cause of evidence is the existance of heaven.

Jn.14: 1"Let not your hearts be troubled; believe * in God, believe also in me. 2* In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And when I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going." * 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

So we can conclude that not everyone is going to end up in heavem therefore Hell too must be a reality. This is well documented in the Bible.

Now the Biblical evidence of Purgatory

2 Maccabees 12: 39 “On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. 40 Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

This clearly talks about a place of purification. It was the common belief of the Jewish nation [at least of the Paharisee’s Like Paul in later times] and continues to be held as truth today.

It is my prayerful hope that this adds to the discussion.

Love and prayers,

 

[SHW]

As priests, these men should be bound to the dogmas of our Church, but as scholars, they should have free rein to investigate.

If Brown was so liberal, then why did two popes appoint him to the Pontifical Biblical Commission? Why was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger so effusive in his praise of Brown when he died, saying he “would be very happy if we had many exegetes like Father Brown”.

As scholars, once the teaching magisterium has spoken concerning dogma, there can be no more “legitimate” investigation. The case is closed.

Perhaps the popes and Cardinal Ratzinger were not made aware of “everything” included and taught in Brown’s work but instead were given only “selected” writings to peruse. “Liberal” agenda is not bound by men’s consciences or rules of any kind.

Pax,
SHW