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Johnhy
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Does the Bible even mention Purgatory? If not, when exactly did the Church start teaching about it? Maybe in the time of Jesus there was no such notion.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
How do you reconcile the following from St. Peter?
**2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.**
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Does the Bible even mention Trinity?
Some things are inferred and were given names by the Church.
**Mat 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men and holiness: without which no man shall see God.
Jas 3:2 For in many things we all offend. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man. He is able also with a bridle to lead about the whole body.
Rev 21:27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie: but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.
1Jn 5:17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured.
Jas 1:15 Then, when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death.
2Sa 12:13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.
Mat 5:26 Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment.
2Ma 12:44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
2Ma 12:45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
2Ma 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.
2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain:
2Ti 1:17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me.
2Ti 1:18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? Why are they then baptized for them?
1Co 15:30 Why also are we in danger every hour? **
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PJM
Guest
=Shin;5129937]Well, if you mean by this that the way he entered Heaven was baptism by desire this would be correct and a good point.
It could be Baptism or Desire, or possibly Baptism of Blood, because he was defending the Misson of Christ?
Either way, he did not get into heaven for three days, because acess to heaven had yet to be granted.
Keep in mind also, Abraham, Moses, St. Joseph, The Peophets, none of them were yet entered into heaven either!
Love and prayers,
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patricia_connel
Guest
Oh, I am glad that someone on this earth misses hearing from me…So I want to ask for prayers for our children who no longer go to Mass or believe that missing Mass is even wrong. Please pray that our children will come back to the Catholic Faith and once again embrace all our teachings, sacraments, and wonderful traditions. That’s it. I pray for my 4 sons every day that they will someday remember what they were taught in the Catholic Schools they went to and what my husband and I taught them by example at home. Patricia Connelly
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JKing
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You are critiquing a translation and therefore you point does not hold. If you could make this assertion using the original Greek, you point would be well made. As it is, the placement of the comma is the decision of the translator who is trying to write a good English sentence that communicates the same meaning he understands from the Greek. Not being a Greek scholar, I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think the Greek construction looks anything like the English.
To all. I recommend the book called “The End of the Present World and the Mysteries of the Future Life” by Father Charles Arminjon. (Sophia Institute Press). Apparently, Therese of Liseaux’s vocation was inspired by this book. sophiainstitute.com/productdetails.cfm?sku=388
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8eofilos
Guest
The word Purgatory does not exist and it is a heretical teaching.Nor what is spoken about purgatory is in the Bible.Jesus finishes His work on the Cross…“It is finished!”
When He says you will go in the everlasting fire, He means everlasting…
As for all the clerics and priests and "supposedly followers of Christ, they are adding or removing from the Bible things that Jesus never said…Remember what he says…
Many will come in my name but He will simply tell them I don’t know you.
No one alters His word…No one…
Purgatory does not Exist…Again, only Jesus can bare our sins and not purgatory.
When He says you will go in the everlasting fire, He means everlasting…
As for all the clerics and priests and "supposedly followers of Christ, they are adding or removing from the Bible things that Jesus never said…Remember what he says…
Many will come in my name but He will simply tell them I don’t know you.
No one alters His word…No one…
Purgatory does not Exist…Again, only Jesus can bare our sins and not purgatory.
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CWBetts
Guest
Umm are you gonna do anything except just go on and on about how Purgatory is heretical? I dunno, like explain why every time judgement is metioned in the Scriptures, we read about being judged for our works? Or the prayers for the dead in 1 Maccabees?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I wanted to give you some more information, for you to consider, on what was meant by our Lord saying “It is finished”. Below, I am copying and pasting my part of a discussion I was in with another on another thread.
Of course, most know, the Seder meal was being celebrated during the days of our Lord coming to His hour. I wish to go a little more in-depth with the correlation, as I wish to demonstrate there were changes in the Seder meal and the Last Supper, instituted by our Lord.
The Passover meal was part of the covenant from God and men. It required an active participation. In reading Exodus 12:17, we see this was to be done perpetually, for ever. To reject the Last Supper as the adjustment to, or replacement of, or more specifically a fulfillment of, the covenant command of God, means we should still be celebrating the Passover meal as prescribed by God.
We know from Jeremiah 31:31, a new covenant was prophesied. This prophesy was brought to mind in the New Testament, in a letter from St. Paul to the Hebrews 8:7 – 12.
The prescription of the Passover meal was detailed and clear from the Lord, as written in Exodus 12.
A lamb without blemish was to be slaughtered at twilight, eaten with unleavened bread, the lamb’s blood was to be sprinkled on the doorposts with hyssop, none of the lamb’s bones were to be broken, and this ordinance was to be celebrated perpetually.
The Jewish Passover meal consisted of:
- The Festival Blessing – Drink from the 1st cup of wine.
- Passover Narrative and Little Hallel (Psalms 113) – Drink from 2nd cup of wine.
- Main Meal: roasted lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs and spices – Drink from 3rd cup of wine.
- Great Hallel (Psalms 114 – 118) and the drinking of the 4th cup of wine, and closed when presiding priest or host says the phrase, “TEL TELESTI” which is interpreted as “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.
3 of the Gospel authors told us about the Lord’s Supper, as Bro. Christopher pointed out. Matthew, Mark and Luke wrote about it. All 3 say He gave the cup, of the new covenant, to the Apostles and told them to drink, but it does not tell us that Christ, the High Priest, drank of the cup. Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25 and Luke 22:18, tells us that, during the Passover meal, Christ announced He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until he drank it in the Kingdom of God. After making this announcement, Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 tell us, “Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.” After singing a hymn, the great Hallel, they went out to the garden, without the High Priest closing the celebration, not only not closing the celebration, but declaring He would not drink fruit of the vine again, until He drank it in the Kingdom of God. He did not say, “It is finished” or “It is consummated”.
In the garden, our Lord prayed to the father to let this cup be passed from Him, if it was the Father’s will. Matthew 22:44 tells us that Christ prayed this 3 times. What cup was Christ praying be passed from Him? I believe it was the 4th cup that closed the Passover meal, which was fulfilled with the Lord’s Supper.
When God made the covenant with Moses, Moses asked who to tell had told him of the covenant, Exodus 3:13 – 14. God told Moses, “I am, who I am.”
When Christ was arrested in the garden, He asked who they were looking for and they replied, “Jesus of Nazareth”. In John 18:5, Jesus told them, “I AM he”. When those arresting Him heard this, they went backward and fell to the ground (John 18:6).
**Mark 15:22 – 24 told us that Christ was offered wine drugged with myrrh, but He did not drink it.
John 19:28 – 30 explains that Our Lord, aware that everything was now finished, in order that scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst”. Hearing this, they took a sponge and dipped it in common wine, sour wine, fruit of the vine, and held it up to His mouth with hyssop. After taking the wine, our Lord said, “It is finished”, bowed His head and gave up the spirit.
John 19:33 – 38 told us that our Lord’s legs were not broken, so that scripture might be fulfilled.
Mark 15:33 – 34 tells us the time the Lamb of God death, which was twilight, the same time Moses was instructed to slaughter the sacrificial lamb.**
Christ came to fulfill the law, and it was fulfilled with the new covenant. A covenant of God and men, that requires participation of those being set free.
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Godfollower
Guest
Purgatory only exists because of Jesus! It is not an alternative to Him!
We know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven. If you die and head for Heaven, but still have a tendency to sin, that tendency will be removed from you by Jesus’ grace, just like an abcessed tooth will be removed from you for your physical health by the dentist’s skill. It may or may not be painful, but it is necessary before you enter Heaven.
When Jesus laid down His life for us, that singular act enabled us to receive salvation if we accept the gift He is giving us. One of the ways He saves us is by removing our tendency to sin from us, prior to our entering Heaven. We call that removal “purgatory” (the word means “purge” – as in, cleanse). If you don’t want to call it “purgatory,” fine; but the fact is you need to be cleansed of your sins before you enter Heaven. And, frankly, if you’re being invited into Heaven to share eternity with God, wouldn’t you want to wipe your feet first?
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golfjack
Guest
Jesus did not shed His Blood for our flesh. The taming of the flesh is up to us right here on earth. When we die, it is not up to God to purge our flesh before we enter heaven. 
Peace, Golfjack
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
What about the spirit? I’m not sure where you got the idea we’re talking about “taming flesh”?Jesus did not shed His Blood for our flesh. The taming of the flesh is up to us right here on earth. When we die, it is not up to God to purge our flesh before we enter heaven.
Code:Peace, Golfjack
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PJM
Guest
=golfjack;5132882]Simply put, every time you Catholics see the word Church, you think it means Catholic Church. Study Col. 1:24 to find a good definition of Church. To me the Church consists of all born again believers that have there place to help the Church. On a personal note, I have been called by God to be an Evangelistic Preacher.
Hi Brother!
For the sake of fraterinity and Brotherhood, I shall attempt to put your verse into its proper context.
1 Cor: 1: 21"And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. 24** Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church**,
Pastor, given that the entire New Testament was written by and for Catholics. We can know this because prior to the end of the First Century {The Catholic Church was the only Church in existance at the tome, and would continue as such for another 1,200 years.} the “church” in question is the Catholic Church.
Having shared this, as an informed, practicing Roman Catholic who knows that we teach, and I firmly accept the teaching, that one “need not be a Catholic” in order to get to heaven,
I accept your premise that you are called to a different and seperated Ministery.
One cannot not know the why’s and wherefores of Almighty God. His ways are too Woundrous for us mortals.
Still there are highly signifiant reasons to be a Catholic, especially the Sacraments founded too by Christ.Most espeicially Eucharist, Christ Himself: Jn. 6, Mt.26, Lk.22, Mk. 14. and 1 Cor. 11. and the Sacrament of known Forgiveness of sins: Mt.16:19, and Jn. 20:21.
Love and prayers Brother, keep up your Good Work:thumbsup:
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SHW
Guest
Very well said!
A couple more verses to back up your post:
Luke 24:44 "Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 11:13)
Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and every “jot and tittle” concerning Him in the “Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” His life, death, resurrection, and ascension fulfilled, finished, and consummated the Old Covenant and thereby it was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). His New Covenant is now in force forever. It is an everlasting covenant.
“It is finished” does not mean that we no longer have to take responsibility for our own sins. This is a false teaching. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Matthew 7:20-23, Acts 5:32, Hebrews 5:9, )
Matthew 18:8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.”
Pax,
SHW
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joey46
Guest
We went to a seminar several years ago and a man spoke about Purgatory. He said something that has stayed with me all these years. He said; Now God loves us so much that he forgives us before we can even realize we have committed a wrong. He loves us more than we can ever comprehend. It is my belief that when we die and find ourselves standing before our most Precious God the Father, we are shamed by our sins to a point we cannot look at Him. Therefore, we are the ones who go to purgatory to feel cleansed to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and say ‘here I am Lord your servant who loves you. Please accept me now that I am free from my chains.’ This story could be just that, a story that someone has made up. However, I believe it’s possible also.
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richiesac
Guest
Perhaps the account of the atonement of the thief alongside the dying Jesus assures us that salvation extends with Him,through time eternal. If we reflect upon what the priest carves in the Paschal Candle during the Easter Vigil Celebration,not only the symbols of the Alpha and the Omega,but the current year,to symbolize that Jesus,whose very name means “God Saves”,throughout the years of time,now and forever. And how that gives us hope and trust in His Mercy.
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SHW
Guest
Hi Joey,
Only those who are “pure” can enter heaven. Those who committed mortal sins and do not repent are sent to hell.(Revelation 21:8). If we do not purify ourselves of every fault (venial sin) before death, then we are purified after death. We are tested by fire.
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 “If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
1 Peter 1:7 “that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,”
1 John 2:28 “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”
1 John 3:3 “And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”
Matthew 5:8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.”
Pax,
SHW
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w_stewart
Guest
Out of curiosity, could you name even one “born again believer” and one “evangelistic preacher” in 900 AD?Simply put, every time you Catholics see the word Church, you think it means Catholic Church. Study Col. 1:24 to find a good definition of Church. To me the Church consists of all born again believers that have there place to help the Church. On a personal note, I have been called by God to be an Evangelistic Preacher.
Code:Peace, Golfjack
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w_stewart
Guest
Did God tell you you could find salvation outside of the Catholic Church, thus, you left from it?
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rosieb3278
Guest
Jesus told the thief “you will be with me in paradise”. Paradise is not heaven. I dont’ think Jesus went to heaven at that time. He decended to the dead (purgatory?) to tell them the good news. Ascended to heaven 40 days later.
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