A question about Purgatory.

[Roy5]

HEAVEN, HELL, PURGATORY?

Okay, I have to say that most discussions of the afterlife leave me cold. Our perspective is so narrow, based on very limited knowledge and our human frame.

 Let me illustrate with this story. Brother John  and Brother James were two monastery monks, good friends, but they disagreed on one issue: heaven. Brother John was sure it would be a time of eternal prayer, singing Gregorian chants, and meditation. Brother James said: "To heck with that. That's all we've been doing here on earth! In heaven we will have an eternal party, with good wine, good music and lots of fun!"  

  They finally decided to stop arguing, but when the first one died he would come back, provide the true situation in the life to come, and then they would know who won the argument. 

   Well, Brother John  did die, and as he promised he returned the next night in a dream. "Brother James," he said. "we both were wrong. But it would do no good to explain what eternal life is like, because the mortal mind could not comprehend it. It's on a different plane, a different dimension. But, be not afraid. Sincere Christians have nothing to fear."

   I wonder if we are biting off more than we can chew when we claim to know about eternal life. I'm content to believe in God and the promise that he will be with us always. As for purgatory, I guess I find it irrelevant. But I trust that the compassionate Lord will be just and merciful. That's all that I need to know. The rest is theological fluff.

 

[Atreides]

OK, so let’s put it in terms of what would have been understood 2000 years ago. You commit a crime, are caught and brought before the King. You are guilty. You know you are guilty. You admit your guilt to the King. After all this, the King completely forgives you. What sentence do you have to pay if the King has declared you forgiven? If the King has declared you to be forgiven, who has the authority to impose a punishment upon you?

You still fail to show me that a judicial courtroom analogy is The Analogy for the Gospel. But let’s run with it First of all, if God simply forgives us of a crime as proposed here, than what of Christ’s death? You leave sacrificial atonement out of your analogy completely. What was the nature of Christ’s action against sin? Did Christ take on the punishment that we should have received for our sins (you might be interested to know that this is not the Catholic Church’s teaching)? In light of this action, what is our responsibility? What is the nature of sin after God’s forgiveness? So if the King forgives our crime, will we never again be held accountable for our crimes? The fact that you represent all sins, past, present, and future, as a single crime committed at one point in time doesn’t help make things clearer.

This is not nearly as theologically simplistic as you make it out to be. This has a long history of speculation and debate before the Reformers came along with their mostly-judicial language.

I would highly encourage you to study historical models of the atonement and take the time to see the diversity in perspectives on this issue.

Your second point is moot since you have been forgiven by the King. Romans 6:23 reads, “For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.” I see no distinction of sins (cardinal or venial). Luke 12:47-48 says, “And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.”, which clearly demonstrates the way God views sin (with or without knowledge of what is right). For example, God told Moses that you cannot marry you sister (or half sister), yet Abraham had married his half-sister, Sarah. This happened before the law was given, so there was no knowledge on Abraham’s part that this was sin. Likewise, God instructed Moses that a man may not marry a woman and her sister while they are both alive, yet we know that Jacob had married Leah and Rachel who were sisters and bore to him 12 sons (with some help from their “handmaids”). Again, Jacob didn’t know it was sin because God hadn’t given the law yet. God even made provision in His Law for sin offerings for unknown sin (see Lev 5:17-19).

You demonstrate a lack of knowledge about how Catholicism distinguishes between sin. In fact, with every word of your paragraph you prove the point. Mortal sins are sins (any kind of sin) committed with full knowledge and full intent, while venial sins are sins (any kind of sin) committed without full knowledge and without full intent. Thus, your assertion that God’s only distinction between sin is “knowledge vs. lack of knowledge” turns around on you.

 

[Shin]

'Anselm… Again, if there is nothing greater or better than God, there is nothing more just than supreme justice, which maintains God’s honor in the arrangement of things, and which is nothing else but God himself.

Boso. There is nothing clearer than this.

Anselm… Therefore God maintains nothing with more justice than the honor of his own dignity.

Boso. I must agree with you.

Anselm… Does it seem to you that he wholly preserves it, if he allows himself to be so defrauded of it as that he should neither receive satisfaction nor punish the one defrauding him.

Boso. I dare not say so.

Anselm. Therefore the honor taken away must be repaid, or punishment must follow; otherwise, either God will not be just to himself, or he will be weak in respect to both parties; and this it is impious even to think of.

St. Anselm of Canterbury, ‘Cur Deus Homo’

Cur Deus Homo gives a very good exposition of God’s justice and what the requirements are for the fulfillment of it by each man.

 

[CWBetts]

there is no scriptural basis for cardinal or venial sins, ** I submit they don’t do it because of the money such a concept generates!** Finally, I would ask what scriptural evidence you have for the existence of Purgatory.

I will address each of your mistakes, in turn. But only after I first demonstrate that the Holy Bible is not our sole rule of faith. The Bible is useful, indeed. You will never find a true Catholic to dispute that. After all, the Bible is a Catholic book! It was compiled by the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in the Scriptures does any indication appear that the Bible is to be our sole rule of faith! But there are passages that do indicate that authority comes form the Church! In Luke chapter 10, seventy of his disciples are sent to Capernaum to evangelize. At this time, these seventy are the Church. What does the Bible say about the Church?

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

To reject the Church is to reject Christ! What is described as the pillar of thruth by the Scriptures? 1 Tomothy 3:15 says it is the Church:

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Interesting, dontcha think? And if there are disputes between bothers, where do we take the dispute? To the Churh, according to Matthew 18:15-18.

*15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. *

I am not seeing the Bible as our final authority.

Venial vs. Mortal sin. The Catholic understanding is that sins can be either Mortal or Venial. Of course, you want scriptural evidence for the idea of degrees of sin, so let us find some. For starters, Jesus says that there are varying degrees of sin. When talking to Pilate, he calls the sins of the mob that delivered Him for crucifixion to be graeater than Pilate’s sentenceing (John 19:11)

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

You may argue that this citation is weak. It is more directly adressed here (1 John 5:16-17):

16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17: All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Here the Scriptures say that there are sins that are mortal and sins that are not! Yet you say there is no Scriptural evidence for different degrees of sin? I have shown you two passages!

Next you are talking about what, exactly? The optional $5 stipend for a Mass? You are koking, right? Not exactly a huge “money-making scheme” If you are rferrign to something else, plese let me know.

Lastly, you ask for scriptural evidence for purgatory. Seeing as how there are no Catholic teachings contrary to Scripture, let us see what we can find. Well looking at my Faith Database, I have found quite a bit!

First we will look at 2 Samuel. This passage does not talk of purgatory exactly, but it does illustrate the concept that even after sin is forgiven there may be a temporal, or non-eternal, punishment (12:13-14):

13: David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14: Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.

Again, this is not specifically about purgatory, but merely an illustration of the concept. You want more, and honestly, I would too. I will respect your belief that 2 Maccabees is not canon, so I will skip that quote. However I can dig up stuff out of the New Testament. In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus is talking about blasphemy:

*31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. *

The most interesting thing here is the phrase “neither in the age to come”, meaning that there is some process of forgiveness after death. Again this is tangentlly related to Purgatory, but not explicit. Next we go to Mark 9:49. In its context, Jesus is teaching about Hell. But in verse 49 he says something very interesting. He talkes about fire:

49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

He says “everyone”. Whether that means “literally everyone” or “generally everyine” makes no difference. This is not a consuming fire, but a fire of purification, just as salt can be used as a preservative. Agin, the word “purgatory” is nowhere to be seen, but then agin “Trinity” is absent fron the Scriptures as well. So is “rapture”. I have given you some Scriptural evidences. If you want more just ask.

 

[SHW]

Jesus was not in heaven on “this day” either. The comma is in the wrong place. The person who placed the commas (none were in the original manuscript) did not know theology as well as he should.

Jesus was with the dead, preaching to them, until it was time for Him to be resurrected. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

So, the Scripture should read, "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 RSV
All Bibles that I know of have the comma in the wrong place.

Jesus opened the gates of heaven when He died, but He did not ascend into heaven until Ascension Thursday, so it is impossible for Him to be in heaven with the thief on Good Friday. (John 20:17)

Pax,
SHW

 

[Shin]

Jesus was not in heaven on “this day” either. The comma is in the wrong place. The person who placed the commas (none were in the original manuscript) did not know theology as well as he should.

Jesus was with the dead, preaching to them, until it was time for Him to be resurrected. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

So, the Scripture should read, "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 RSV
All Bibles that I know of have the comma in the wrong place.

Jesus opened the gates of heaven when He died, but He did not ascend into heaven until Ascension Thursday, so it is impossible for Him to be in heaven with the thief on Good Friday. (John 20:17)

Pax,
SHW

I have never heard that comma explanation before and highly doubt its accuracy.

“And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.” - Douay

Now, we can consider this in different ways – Here are some – First we can consider the ‘day’ to be of looser meaning than ‘a 24 hour period’, which is certainly possible given the grand circumstances the statement was made under, it could have a broad meaning.

Or we can can consider the fact that the good thief after death went to paradise but not Heaven – In other words, the paradise of the fathers, or Abraham’s bosom – where he with the Patriarchs and other good people under the old Covenant awaited Christ, whom they would soon encounter.

It makes for a moving topic for meditation, that idea, I must say.

 

[CWBetts]

Jesus was not in heaven on “this day” either. The comma is in the wrong place. The person who placed the commas (none were in the original manuscript) did not know theology as well as he should.

Jesus was with the dead, preaching to them, until it was time for Him to be resurrected. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

So, the Scripture should read, "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 RSV
All Bibles that I know of have the comma in the wrong place.

Jesus opened the gates of heaven when He died, but He did not ascend into heaven until Ascension Thursday, so it is impossible for Him to be in heaven with the thief on Good Friday. (John 20:17)

Pax,
SHW

I actually never thought if it that way! Very cool!

 

[holyrosary11]

if the man who is in the side of jesus when they are in the cross are a sinner, why jesus brought the thief on heaven instantly without cleansing in the purgatory? because Jesus said “right now I will put you in paradise” the underlined phrase “right now” only means an immediate deliverance to the kingdom of God. Does it mean that Jesus do not consider purgatory to cleanse the sin of the thief?

:

it’s my understanding that Purgatory is to cleanse from the soul the sins commited after “conversion” or baptism. If the thief was filled with the Holy Spirit, after communicating with Christ… when he died, he would go straight to Heaven because he didn’t have time to commit any sins after such a conversion…

 

[mardukm]

Consider this - if I got a ticket for speeding, there’s a fine to be paid. I go to court, admit the offense, and the judge declares me Not Guilty. If I’m declared Not Guilty, how much of a fine do I have to pay? In the same way, when God forgives our sins, Jesus, in effect, declares us “Not guilty”. So why does the Catholic Church consign people to Purgatory when the Judge of all the Earth has declared them “Not Guilty”? (1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity.” Douay Rheims.)

You have a good point here. This is one of the distinctions between Western Catholicism and Oriental Catholicism. We believe in Purgatory (we don’t often use the name, but the concept of Purgatory is accepted), but our understanding is expressed differently than our Latin brethren. In Oriental Catholicism, we don’t speak in terms of reparation or penal consequences. Rather, we always speak of “temporal punishment” in terms of its medicinal effect on the soul.

Understand, of course, that the Latin Church herself does not, in her official, magisterial teachings on Purgatory, speak in terms of reparation or penal consequences. Rather, her magisterial teachings always speak of the cleansing nature of Purgatory. I think this idea of reparation (paying something back) or penal consequences is a rather popular theologoumenon in the Latin Church, but I really don’t think it is official Latin Church teaching.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[scottywolf777]

To really scandalise our protestant friends here, Jews pray for the dead because there is a belief that we can affect the final judgement of the dead by our prayers sound vaguely familiar guys?
CS Lewis was the person who got me to accept the concept of purgatory. There’s an essay in Letters to Malcolm chiefly on Prayer where he talks about even if there was NO PURGATORY WE would want it once we came into contact with the All Holy God carrying the sinful baggage we all carry. I wish I could quote the book but, I loaned it to a friend who never returned it!
To go back to judicial language purgatory is kinda like a bench warrent placed on someone after death because they didn’t take care of the parking ticket while alive. A better example is you vandalise someone’s home, your attorney (Jesus) pays the price for the repairs but, who is responsible for making the repairs(restitution or in theological terms penance) if you don’t do so voluntarily then the judge (God) will make you pay the hard way making license plates for a penny a piece until you’ve paid your part. There are consequences for your sins even when they seem victimless crimes you still offend God, hurt the community, harm the person(s) affected by that sin (even when it was just in your head note Matt. 5:20) and lastly yourself.God is just and therefore wishes us to not only own up but, to take action even if symbolic (saying 5 our fathers) to right the wrong. Even AA recognizes this in their 12 steps. “To confess your wrongs to another and to try and make restitution for those wrongs!”
The good thief fessed up to his crime and was paying for his crime by his crucifixion. He reproves the other thief for his crime thus winning favor with God. Finally he recognizes Jesus for who He is even if not in so many words and Jesus gives him an absolution. The Russian cross has a slanted bar at the feet of Jesus represening the footrest one side is pointed up for the good thief and the other is pointed down for the bad one.

 

[Shin]

it’s my understanding that Purgatory is to cleanse from the soul the sins commited after “conversion” or baptism. If the thief was filled with the Holy Spirit, after communicating with Christ… when he died, he would go straight to Heaven because he didn’t have time to commit any sins after such a conversion…

Well, if you mean by this that the way he entered Heaven was baptism by desire this would be correct and a good point.

I don’t know for certain the best traditional interpretation of what exactly happened, and now I am curious.

 

[golfjack]

The simple answer here is there is no such thing as purgatory. Either one is saved or not. As far as cleansing goes, The blood of Jesus took care of that 2 thousand years ago. He didn’t come to save my flesh anyway. You see, my spirit is perfect in the sight of God as a result of the New Birth.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The simple answer here is there is no such thing as purgatory. Either one is saved or not. As far as cleansing goes, The blood of Jesus took care of that 2 thousand years ago. He didn’t come to save my flesh anyway. You see, my spirit is perfect in the sight of God as a result of the New Birth.

    Peace,   Golfjack

Can you please give the simple explanation for the following verse?

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Can you please give the simple explanation for where this spirit prison is?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Can you please give the simple explanation as to why the gospel was preached also to the dead?

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Can you give us the simple answer to the question, is there sins that can be forgiven in the world to come?

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

 

[scottywolf777]

Can you please give the simple explanation for the following verse?

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Can you please give the simple explanation for where this spirit prison is?

1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:
1Pe 3:20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Can you please give the simple explanation as to why the gospel was preached also to the dead?

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

Can you give us the simple answer to the question, is there sins that can be forgiven in the world to come?

Mat 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Our friend here also missed something in his “there’s no purgatory” remark. People in purgatory ARE saved. Nobody goes to Hell from purgatory. i kindly recommend CS Lewis’ the Great Divorce There’s only two places you end up eventaully anyway.

The dead are waiting, what are they waiting for? They’rewaiting for the eternal part of them to come out clear-Thornton Wilder “Our Town” Ps Wilder was a new england protestant]Even he gets it!

 

[Godfollower]

The simple answer here is there is no such thing as purgatory. Either one is saved or not. As far as cleansing goes, The blood of Jesus took care of that 2 thousand years ago. He didn’t come to save my flesh anyway. You see, my spirit is perfect in the sight of God as a result of the New Birth.

    Peace,   Golfjack

Then you need to study the Scriptures some more. Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the body.

And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:11.

In any event, it’s certainly true that “either one is saved or not,” but it isn’t as simple as you seem to believe. We know from Scripture that nothing unclean can enter Heaven:

The treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there, but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies.

Rev. 21:26-27 (describing “the holy city, a new Jerusalem,coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,” per verses 2-3).

So, if you’re destined for Heaven (a/k/a “if you’ve been saved”) but are still unclean at your death, what will happen? Obviously: you’ll be made clean. That is, you’ll be purged of your sins and your tendency to sin. What do we call the moment of purging you? Purgatory.

The Church does not teach that you can go to Purgatory instead of Heaven. Purgatory is not a “third” destination in the afterlife. All we know is that (A) some people will go to Hell; (B) some people will go straight to Heaven, having died clean (e.g., by dying immediately after Baptism washed them clean); and (C) some people will go to Heaven but will have to be cleansed first. They will then, having been cleansed, enter Heaven. As Paul said, “the person will be saved, but only as through fire.” (1 Cor. 3:15).

 

[SHW]

I have never heard that comma explanation before and highly doubt its accuracy.

“And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.” - Douay

Now, we can consider this in different ways – Here are some – First we can consider the ‘day’ to be of looser meaning than ‘a 24 hour period’, which is certainly possible given the grand circumstances the statement was made under, it could have a broad meaning.

Or we can can consider the fact that the good thief after death went to paradise but not Heaven – In other words, the paradise of the fathers, or Abraham’s bosom – where he with the Patriarchs and other good people under the old Covenant awaited Christ, whom they would soon encounter.

It makes for a moving topic for meditation, that idea, I must say.

Howdy,

Thanks for replying.

There were no commas placed in any of the manuscripts of the Bible until much later (centuries later). The original Greek had no comma notations.

I don’t think that “day” in this case has a broader meaning other than that day, “Friday.”

I can see that it depends on what is the official meaning of Paradise. Is it heaven proper or Abraham’s bosom?

If it is heaven proper, then Jesus could not have been with the thief in heaven because Jesus opened the gates of heaven (I don’t know exactly how He did this) on Good Friday according to Fr. Serpa, but Jesus did not ascend into heaven until Ascension Thursday, 40 days after His resurrection. And, if He was preaching to the dead during the interval between His death and His resurrection, then no one else could possibly be in heaven either since Jesus had to rise first in order for anyone else to rise from the dead.

If, however, Paradise is Abraham’s bosom, then Jesus and the thief were together that very day since Jesus went to preach to the “dead” until the time of His resurrection. (John 20:17, 1 Peter 3:18-20)

“He descended to the dead and on the third day He arose again.” The old rendering of the Apostles’ Creed says “hell” rather than “dead” so was changed to better reflect the abode of the dead which had three different levels: Hell, Purgatory, and Abraham’s bosom (Limbo). (Ephesians 4:8-10)

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 “I must boast; there is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. 3 And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise – whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows – 4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. 5 On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses. 6 Though if I wish to boast, I shall not be a fool, for I shall be speaking the truth. But I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.”

It looks like Paul had a vision of heaven which he called Paradise.

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who conquers** I will grant to eat of the tree of life**, which is in the paradise of God.’”

Since the tree of life seems to now be in the paradise of God, this is why I believe that the Paradise spoken elsewhere in the Bible is actually heaven also.

Revelation 22:1-3 “Then he showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There shall no more be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall worship him;”

This is why I believe that man added the comma in the wrong place and that Paradise is actually heaven, where God resides, and not Abraham’s bosom, since the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it.

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[golfjack]

My friends, 1 Cor. 3:15 is talking about our works that will burn if they do not glorify God. This verse does not even come close to proving there is a purgatory. It is a verse about our rewards judgment. Now, if we interpret Romans 8:11 in context, we need to study verses 12-17. Our present bodies will not be resurrected, but we will be given brand new glorified bodies when we enter heaven. Also, the part of man that is quickened is his redeemed spirit that happens when we are born again. How can my flesh be born again? :banghead:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

My friends, 1 Cor. 3:15 is talking about our works that will burn if they do not glorify God. This verse does not even come close to proving there is a purgatory. It is a verse about our rewards judgment. Now, if we interpret Romans 8:11 in context, we need to study verses 12-17. Our present bodies will not be resurrected, but we will be given brand new glorified bodies when we enter heaven. Also, the part of man that is quickened is his redeemed spirit that happens when we are born again. How can my flesh be born again? :banghead:

Yes, the verse says, “if any mans work burn”. It goes on to say, “he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire”. So the works burn, what does, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so by fired, mean?

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Were you going to provide the “simple” answers to the other verses and questions I posed?

 

[Shin]

Well keep in mind paradise is also a name for Eden, where the tree of life is actually physically located. Since this is from Revelation perhaps it is referring to the new Heaven and Earth and New Jerusalem after the Last Judgement?

I can’t go looking up further these passages and the proper exegesis given it at the moment.

‘whether in body or out of body’ is more interesting when considered in this context. But I am only speculating without looking in depth or to the exegesis of the saints on these passages, which is where it is proper to turn for any conclusions of any weight.

 

[golfjack]

PS, Ok, The simple answer is there is no prison, anymore. When a man dies, he either goes to heaven or hell. The verses in 1 Peter refer to Old Testament Saints, like King David, Abraham, Moses, Etc. The reason Jesus preached the Gospel to them is to tell them they needed Christ to enter heaven. ( Born Again). Matt. 12:32 is talking about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, where the Jews were given into the beliefs of Bezlebob where they gave credit to miracles to the devil. Is that simple enough?
Peace, Golfjack