A question about Romans 9

[Timothy524]

When man changes allegiance and welcomes the ancient serpent into his life… well, Satan is a spiritual being…

I worry that all of my poor choices may have allowed him to enter me over time. I question this because of how I see my life in comparison to other people’s lives. I’m 34 and I have never left home. I don’t have many friends. I don’t have a high paying job. I don’t have a girlfriend anymore and broke things off after 8 years. I have not been on top of taking care of myself hygiene wise as well as I normally have in the past. I have not been exercising. I stay homebound most of the time when not working. Other people I know, my brother in particular, is the exact opposite. It’s interesting because I never would have thought this to be the case growing up (that is besides the point). Sometimes I ask myself if I am a believer based on my situation in life. My actions did not always show it in the past. I do not like my situation in life right now where it seems like others have a hold on things and I do not…especially other men. These circumstances have me question myself. While I question myself, It does not seem like other men question themselves. It is as if they know who they are and why they do what they do. It is dizzmile being on the inside looking out.

How would one change alliances as you put it?

I personally believe that Juda’s case is quite particular and that God’s Mercy will collaborate greatly in Judas’ favor… the rest of us… well, Jesus’ Sacrifice was once and for all times, so other than Judas, we have no excuse!

How do you think it will collaborate in Judas favor?

It took Jesus’ apprehension, mistreatment and expedient judgment for Judas to realize that he had gone to the dark-side\quote]

This is EXTREMELY troubling to me. There are a lot of cases in life where it took me to see the hurt I caused others before I realized that I had done something very stupid or inconsiderate. Don’t get me wrong I’ve done things that I knew were stupid or inconsiderate in the moment of doing them. The ones that bother me the most are the ones I wasnt conscious of it in the moment and only after I saw the ramifications of the effects of my actions did it tear my heart apart for being so naive to the consideration of others. It makes me wonder how I could be so naive at times.

An examination of conscious; when I first heard that term some years back, I was intrigued by that intentional engagement of the mind. It would seem like I am in a constant state of examination. It is no good in my opinion. It is like being in a constant state of self conscious. I analyze everything I do. I analyze how my actions could possibly effect others. I analyze why I think what I think. Sometimes it hinders my conversations with my mother by causing me to have delays in my responses because I am thinking about what to say and how she will take it. Sometimes it hinders my prayer life because I try to figure out where to start or what to ask God for. It would seem like an examination of conscious focuses on past actions and thoughts. It would seem that a lot of the examination process focuses on future outcomes and reactions. Therefore do you think this is an examination of conscious in such moments?

The most important reminder you gave me is not being frozen in fear and that we have Christs word to remind us of this. Thank you.

 

[Timothy524]

The idea is that, from wherever we’ve been, we simply keep trying to make our next steps the right ones, rather than giving up. God will always honor and aid us in that.

Fhansen the Lord knows I am trying. I do things sometimes and seconds after I do whatever it is, I say to myself, God would not approve of that. I am acting like I used to in the past. Then I correct things. However, shortly afterwards I think to myself, and this is why you are not like others, this is why you are lonely, this is why you are depressed, this is why you find yourself in the position you are in…because while other people were doing what was good and holy in Hod’d eyes, you were sinning and going down the wrong path. It’s too late now, you’ll never catch up with them, you’ll be on this ship for quite sometime all by your lonesome self while people enjoy their life. It is truly what it feels like.

 

[jcrichton]

I worry that all of my poor choices may have allowed him to enter me over time. I question this because of how I see my life in comparison to other people’s lives. I’m 34 and I have never left home. I don’t have many friends. I don’t have a high paying job. I don’t have a girlfriend anymore and broke things off after 8 years. I have not been on top of taking care of myself hygiene wise as well as I normally have in the past. I have not been exercising…I question myself, It does not seem like other men question themselves. It is as if they know who they are and why they do what they do. It is dizzmile being on the inside looking out.

Hi, Timothy!

…what you are speaking about is cultural bias–there are cultures where three and four generations live together… true, it has a lot to do with survival (financial limitations) and old school (with age comes wisdom, etc.).

The N. American culture evolved to a place where the old is seen as a hindrance and we emulate lower animals’ habits (fledgling pushed out of the nest)…

There were times when a child of thirteen or fourteen would leave his home to seek manhood (vocation/wealth) and by early twenties would be expected (Alexander the Great) to have conquered the world…

You are not alone; yet, even at your parents home you can become a responsible man… but your manhood is not measured by your success or failure or the number of females you have impregnated or the number of children you’ve procreated.

What you describe, in my estimation, seems to be a defeatist spirit.

…in the old movies it would be said of such characters: “…what you need is a good kick in the butt!”

God tells you that every single day… He wants you to get up, dust yourself off, and begin again! (Isaiah 1:16-20)

Stop measuring yourself by others’ achievements/failures… and don’t simply recognize where you’ve failed… ask God to help you change the things that you can (laziness, poor hygiene, self-centeredness (egotism), insecurity…) and ask Him to give you the ability to accept those things that you cannot change (height, athleticism…). Then, get to it! Practice does not only makes perfect but it actually makes for good habits (learning, good hygiene, friendliness, generosity, spiritual growth, self-assuredness…); I do not subscribe to the “no pain no gain,” philosophy… but I do subscribe to the “be all that you can be” motto.

How would one change alliances as you put it?

…that’s easy… the public school system in the US removed prayer from school, they have censored even "a silent moment;’ while, simultaneously, embracing the culture of death and anything that is anti-God (witchcraft, immorality, contraception, abortion…); they turned from God to Satan… and they love it!

How do you think it will collaborate in Judas favor?

Judas had to remain in a state of unbelief in order to betray Jesus–in his limited understanding he could have taken Jesus’ Word (‘but it would have been better for the one who Betrays Him never to have been born…’) as the only act by which he could be redeemed!

We, of course, do not need to go to such extremes!

It took Jesus’ apprehension, mistreatment and expedient judgment for Judas to realize that he had gone to the dark-side\quote]

This is EXTREMELY troubling to me. There are a lot of cases in life where it took me to see the hurt I caused others before I realized that I had done something very stupid or inconsiderate. Don’t get me wrong I’ve done things that I knew were stupid or inconsiderate in the moment of doing them. The ones that bother me the most are the ones I wasnt conscious of it in the moment and only after I saw the ramifications of the effects of my actions did it tear my heart apart for being so naive to the consideration of others. It makes me wonder how I could be so naive at times.

…I think that it has something to do with selfishness and callousness—too often when we are engrossed in ourselves (self-satisfaction) nothing but our “needs/wants” registers; people would even blame others (as the abusive husband/boyfriend) for causing them pain/disappointments… everything is everyone else’s fault. I suspect hollowood has some part in that (just check out how movies, shows, and commercials depict the most atrocious act without any consequences for the perpetrators…

It’s never too late to own up to your failures, seek forgiveness, and make restitutions!

You’ve be surprised how much you can achieve (good) by admitting your errors and giving of yourself to restore the damage you’ve caused.

…Sometimes it hinders my prayer life because I try to figure out where to start or what to ask God for. It would seem like an examination of conscious focuses on past actions and thoughts. It would seem that a lot of the examination process focuses on future outcomes and reactions. Therefore do you think this is an examination of conscious in such moments?

The most important reminder you gave me is not being frozen in fear and that we have Christs word to remind us of this. Thank you.

I meant examination of conscience… this means that you gauge your acts (things you’ve done) and your omissions (things that you should have done) in God’s Eyes–“what would Jesus have me do?”

But you are not judge, jury and executioner… the whole idea is that you seek God’s Forgiveness (Confession), make reparations (restitution and change of life) and you Walk in the Light (1 St. John 1:5-10)

…and yes, it is in Christ that we can achieve everything that is good. Therefore we must seek to live for and in Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

Timothy524

Thank you for sharing so openly and sincerely your concerns.

I would love to be able to help you, as my heart goes out to you.

Remember that God loves you and wishes the best for you. Do you judge yourself too harshly? You should acknowledge your good points. Very many of us in these difficult times share your problems and circumstances. Perhaps try to make slight improvements, if you can. Would exercise help, or volunteering? Would you like to let us know what things you find helpful?

Would talking to someone, such as a priest, help?

 

[Timothy524]

Hello Jcrichton.Thanjs for the reply. Where do you think this “good kick in the butt might come from”. And sometimes I do have a defeatist spirit. I compare myself to others, and say things like, will I ever be at peace, will I ever experience happiness against, there are so many that seem to have been on the right track for decades longer than myself, how can I possibly catch up to their position in life and not suffer as much. The quote from Isaiah was helpful. Thanks.

To stop measuring myself to others, besides prayer taking center stage is there any other suggestions you have in mind to change combat this poor state of mind?

 

[Timothy524]

Hello Noel. Thank for your reply. I am currently talking with a spiritual director and am seeking guidance with various aspects of my life that I am not proud of or would like to change. I do tend to focus on all of my shortcomings in holiness and have been trying to think about times where I have been exhibited doing something holy or kind. However, sometimes I worry about by doing that i am tooting my own horn even if I do not make these assertions openly. What are your thoughts?

 

[NoelFitz]

Timothy524

many thanks.

Things seem better, and I think you are great to be able to take such positive steps.

There are things all of us would like to change, and not being proud is excellent, as pride is one of the worst failings we can have. All of us must trust in God’s mercy and love.

We should not focus of our shortcomings, as we are all sinners and need God’s compassion.

By being positive you are acknowledging God’s grace and the help you have received.

So keep up being positive, and so will I.

God bless.

 

[jcrichton]

Hello Jcrichton.Thanjs for the reply. Where do you think this “good kick in the butt might come from”. And sometimes I do have a defeatist spirit. I compare myself to others, and say things like, will I ever be at peace, will I ever experience happiness against, there are so many that seem to have been on the right track for decades longer than myself, how can I possibly catch up to their position in life and not suffer as much. The quote from Isaiah was helpful. Thanks.

To stop measuring myself to others, besides prayer taking center stage is there any other suggestions you have in mind to change combat this poor state of mind?

Hi, Timothy!

…besides a prayerful life (daily engagement of prayers, novenas, Bible Studies…) there are the good ole vernacular sages…

“Practice makes perfect.”

This is so true… no matter how one sucks at sports or anything else… daily practice improves personal abilities…

“The longest trip starts but with the first step” (or some other wise tenet)… this is particularly so… no matter how far, deep, or high the trek that one must travel, it is but that very first step that makes the distance manageable…

…then there are the entrepreneurial/business philosophies…

“If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.”

Of course over planning is just as drastic and defeating…

God gives man a kick on the butt in that He allows us free will… He places Life and death at our reach and He Calls us to choose Life… but He does not force Life down our throat.

In Scriptures He places all that we need to be successful and happy and prolific…

The key is found in taking our daily cross, taking that first step and practice, practice, practice…

Plan ahead–don’t make long term goals that are super challenging and almost impossible to achieve… plan one week, day or hour at a time…

Make every goal within the realm of possibility–do not aspire to be the lead singer in a band if you cannot carry a tune…

…heard of the “don’t put all of your eggs in one basket” deal?

…this is an excellent gauge… discover/rediscover your weakness and your strengths…

Failure is not a goal; yet, sometimes it is the one sure achievement that most of us are able to attain.

“Learn from your mistakes.” This is related to the “practice” rule… if you know that moping around makes you sick (stressed/depressed)… well, stop! Make a short list of things to do during the next week/24 hours/8 hours/4 hours/2 hours… volunteering your time and skills at your local parish or soup-kitchen or hospital or senior citizen org. It would enrich someone else’s life and it would both give you a sense of accomplishment (fulfillment) and knock you out of that stupor…

…you feel like a “looser” because you are at your parents’ home? …well, stop! Make yourself useful: take care of everything that is within your abilities (lawn, electrical, plumbing, gutters, general repairs, cleaning car, snow removal, painting…); you can even cook–earn your keep… by doing so you would honor your parents, demonstrate your appreciation for their support, and both enhance your self-esteem and kill some of the pesky drag-time.

…and, without definition everything is futility…

Define what happiness, success, joy, achievement, respect… means… just as an example… there are people who believe that happiness and success come from obtaining wealth and wheeling power… Trump was a millionaire… now Trump is a President… all of his millions did not satisfy his hunger for more… would seating at the White House do it?

…ever follow the various news about celebrities and their lifestyles?.. I remember when Britney Spears when cuckoo… a woman, from one of those news programs, reported that she thought that Britney was “so strong!”

…strong, really? That lady was out of control… on the verge of seriously hurting herself… and instead of noticing that she needed help, her peers were congratulating her “strength?”

…then there are the various celebrities and wealthy people who have not only immersed themselves in futility but have thrown away their careers, their health or their lives… all of them sought a grander plane of success, happiness, fulfillment… what is worst, their peers do not reproach the useless paths that they took/take but rather celebrate their poor choices as the apex of self achievement/expression…

…here’s another of God’s kick on the butt: “…humble yourself to God and *He *Will Lift you up!”

…so take control of this very moment in your life… inject it with a short term goal… get yourself up, dust yourself off, plea your case to God, and commit yourself to one act of kindness: Know that God Loves you!

Next… repeat as necessary and take that first step towards the next goal!

May the Holy Spirit Bring Light into your existence and may you acquiesce to His Guidance!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

14 … Is there injustice on the part of God?,
15 … “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16 So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18 …He has mercy upon whom he wills and he hardens whom he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will? 20… Will what is made say to its maker, “Why have you created me so?”21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one? 22 What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23 This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory, 24 namely, us…

When the Scriptures speak of God hardening someone’s heart, this doesn’t mean that God deliberately moulds a person’s heart so that they are predetermined to act wickedly. Rather it means that God permits people to reject and oppose His will. Paul uses Pharaoh as a fine example of how human pride can lead a person down the path of self-destruction and the defeat of his own purpose. The king of Egypt was obstinate of heart and unyielding to God’s command to release His people from slavery. Because of his pride, he not only refused to obey God, but became more intransigent and wicked as the plagues piled up. In other words, each plague made him even more defiant and resolved than he was, but only because of his pride. Thus it wasn’t God who hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but rather the plagues that God sent that had done it. The plagues served to boost his ego which resulted in his own personal defeat. Pharaoh hardened his own heart after each time God sent a plague as a warning, because he couldn’t stomach being opposed by anyone.

***But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8, 15

But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go.
Exodus 8, 32

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
Exodus 9,34***

Hence, Pharaoh hardened his own heart by obstinately refusing to obey the Divine command. By saying that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, we mean that His command to let the Israelite’s go did it by challenging Pharaoh’s pride and ego. It was his pride and ego that kept him from heeding the Divine command. God was physically responsible for Pharaoh’s obstinacy by having sent the plagues, but Pharaoh was morally responsible for his own decisions and acts. He was given the choice to let God’s people go. Meanwhile, God purposefully used Pharaoh’s obstinate pride to free the Israelite’s from slavery in such an awesome way so as to display His glory and might to the Egyptians. God did not predetermine how Pharaoh should act, but He did know how the king would act. God’s foreknowledge doesn’t determine how anyone acts. But because God infallibly knows what will happen, it will happen, just as much as we will know what will happen if we decide to dip our finger into a boiling pot of water.

“And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the Lord.”
Exodus 14, 4

The basic principle embedded in Romans 9 is this: ‘Those who will not see and hear, shall not see and hear.’ God does not act arbitrarily. He was actually very patient with Pharaoh offering him many chances to soften his own heart to God’s good will. Even though there is no injustice in God by refusing to grant someone what they have no strict right to claim in the first place, viz., divine grace, since we all deserve to be punished for our selfish acts, God nevertheless shows His mercy to those who wish to see and hear His word. If God leaves others, like Pharaoh, in their sins by withholding His grace from them, it’s because of their own stubbornness of heart and refusal to co-operate with His grace. God’s mercy shines on His elect, but the Divine justice is handed out to the wicked proportionate to what they deserve in their own moral liberty.

Thus the allegory of the potter and the clay is by no means intended to show that human beings are destitute of free will and liberty,completely passive in God’s plan of redemption and unable to decide for themselves whether they want to be saved. It is used only to stress that we are not to question God why He confers his graces and favours on some and not on others, since we are all no better than each other in our sinfulness. So, it is owing to the divine goodness and mercy that God wills to create vessels of honour by His grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit. And it isn’t unjust that others, because of their refusal to repent and convert, should be given up as vessels of wrath. God sovereignly chooses how He wants us to be used by giving us gifts for his good purpose. He has a plan for those who choose to love Him and follow Him, just as He has a plan for those who choose to reject Him. Let us never forget that God shows no partiality (Rom 2:11).

I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
Deuteronomy 30, 19

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Is it possible that this is what I was created for? The Bible passages above would seem to suggest this to be the case. It says that He has mercy and pity on those he chose and those that are not chosen have nothing to complain about because it is Gods decision that they are to go down this road and who are they to question God.

"Come! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. Incline your ear and come to me. Listen, that you may live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, according to the faithful mercies shown to David.
Isaiah 55:1-3

What the prophet is reminding God’s people is that the true sons of promise and descendants of Abraham are those who live in the spirit as opposed to the flesh. The Israelites might be of Abraham’s race, but because they are made of the same clay that the Gentiles are made of, they can partake of the promise and be made vessels of honour instead of wrath out of that clay by the grace of God provided they draw near to Him. Not all that are of Israel have rightly belonged to Israel because of the sins of the flesh. Thus not all are descendants of Abraham simply because they have physically descended from him. The true descendants of Abraham through Isaac, the rightful heir to the promised inheritance, are not children of the flesh, but children of God. The children of promise are those who live a life in the Spirit. These are the true servants of Israel, the righteous remnant reckoned as the true descendants and co-heirs of the promised inheritance (cf. Rom 9:6-8). James exhorts us: “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you” (4:8).

As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
Romans 9, 13

Esau was rejected as God’s choice because he rejected his own birth right for a morsel of food. He did not act as a true servant of Israel in the spirit, but as carnal Israel. Esau brought God’s wrath down upon himself by his own volition. God did not predetermine Esau’s act so that Jacob should be elected instead. It was Esau himself who tarnished his relationship with God. The word ‘hate’ (μισέω) signifies that there was a broken relationship between God and Esau for what the latter chose to do so dishonourably. His physical appetite was more important to him than God. It wasn’t so much that God detested Esau for no just reason at all or even detested him. Esau simply lost God’s favour by his own carnal act. Thus, as an object of wrath, Esau became pottery for common use rather than a noble purpose. God said to Moses: "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” This doesn’t mean that God has reserved the right for himself to act arbitrarily and without impartiality. We are all in need of God’s mercy; nor is God’s mercy something we deserve. The Divine mercy is basically withheld punishment for our sins. Unless we sincerely repent of our sins and implore God’s mercy and forgiveness, He will punish us as our deeds deserve (Jer. 21:14). God is patient with us in His kindness because He desires that we be saved. He doesn’t wait all this time for a sinner’s conversion because He wants to punish them in due time, but rather the opposite. God’s kindness and patience provide an opportunity for us to repent and be saved. His kindness is meant to lead us to repentance and salvation (Rom 2:4; 2 Pet 3:15). So we should never complain as Esau did for being punished for our sins (Lam 3:39).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 3-4

Because of the fall which God foresaw when he created the world, it was His predestined (not predetermined) plan and His grace that went before Him to enable us to be saved. By His antecedent will, God desires that everyone be saved. So a person must wilfully reject God’s ‘predestined’ plan for his salvation in order to be damned. God intends that a soul be saved this way: by not rejecting His word and resisting His grace. In consequence of the reprobate’s act, God has predestined him to eternal damnation by His consequent will. With this will we can perceive God as not being self-contradictory – willing two different things at once – but as completely faithful to Himself. God does desire that everyone come to repentance and be saved (antecedent will/desire), but He is also a just God who doesn’t tolerate sin and will punish those who refuse to repent (consequent will/decree). ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die’ (Ezek. 18:4). Thus, what God has not intended is to predetermine the eternal destiny of souls, which is why He appeals to us to cooperate with His saving grace.

***Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18, 32 ***

:heaven:

 

[NoelFitz]

** Good Fella **

I read your reply to Timothy524, and I hope he found it beneficial and encouraging.

If I were going through a rough patch I do not think your post would help me.

 

[Dorothy]

** Good Fella **

I read your reply to Timothy524, and I hope he found it beneficial and encouraging.

If I were going through a rough patch I do not think your post would help me.

I very much liked the scripture insights posted by “Good Fella”.

I liked yours as well.

It is good to be presented with responses from different angles, as long as they are truth.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Good_Fella]

** Good Fella **

I read your reply to Timothy524, and I hope he found it beneficial and encouraging.

If I were going through a rough patch I do not think your post would help me.

I simply wished to clear up any misunderstandings he might have of the Scriptures to help remove nagging doubts that seem to be discouraging him; dissipate the clouds, so to speak, that the sunlight may eventually touch him. After all, he did raise his questions in a Scripture forum concerning the Scriptures, and there may be other people here, perhaps Protestants who might be interested in the meaning of Romans from a Catholic perspective. There actually are Protestants who believe that God pre-determines our eternal destiny and arbitrarily decides which soul ends up where. Anyway, Catholics who seek serious help should find a good, qualified spiritual director or a Catholic psychotherapist. That’s what I would do. Approaching members of a discussion forum is less helpful.

:heaven:

 

[NoelFitz]

Good Fella and Dorothy,

Thanks.
I hesitated before sending my previous post.

We are here to build each other up. So while I want to be truthful and open, I do not want to submit anything that is unhelpful.

 

[Good_Fella]

Good Fella and Dorothy,

Thanks.
I hesitated before sending my previous post.

We are here to build each other up. So while I want to be truthful and open, I do not want to submit anything that is unhelpful.

You’re welcome! What we might find unhelpful might in fact be helpful to someone else. We all often see things differently in our personal experiences.

:heaven:

 

[jcrichton]

"Come! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. Incline your ear and come to me. Listen, that you may live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, according to the faithful mercies shown to David.
Isaiah 55:1-3

What the prophet is reminding God’s people is that the true sons of promise and descendants of Abraham are those who live in the spirit as opposed to the flesh. The Israelites might be of Abraham’s race, but because they are made of the same clay that the Gentiles are made of, they can partake of the promise and be made vessels of honour instead of wrath out of that clay by the grace of God provided they draw near to Him. Not all that are of Israel have rightly belonged to Israel because of the sins of the flesh. Thus not all are descendants of Abraham simply because they have physically descended from him. The true descendants of Abraham through Isaac, the rightful heir to the promised inheritance, are not children of the flesh, but children of God. The children of promise are those who live a life in the Spirit. These are the true servants of Israel, the righteous remnant reckoned as the true descendants and co-heirs of the promised inheritance (cf. Rom 9:6-8). James exhorts us: “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you” (4:8).

As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
Romans 9, 13

Esau was rejected as God’s choice because he rejected his own birth right for a morsel of food. He did not act as a true servant of Israel in the spirit, but as carnal Israel. Esau brought God’s wrath down upon himself by his own volition. God did not predetermine Esau’s act so that Jacob should be elected instead. It was Esau himself who tarnished his relationship with God. The word ‘hate’ (μισέω) signifies that there was a broken relationship between God and Esau for what the latter chose to do so dishonourably. His physical appetite was more important to him than God. It wasn’t so much that God detested Esau for no just reason at all or even detested him. Esau simply lost God’s favour by his own carnal act. Thus, as an object of wrath, Esau became pottery for common use rather than a noble purpose. God said to Moses: "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” This doesn’t mean that God has reserved the right for himself to act arbitrarily and without impartiality. We are all in need of God’s mercy; nor is God’s mercy something we deserve. The Divine mercy is basically withheld punishment for our sins. Unless we sincerely repent of our sins and implore God’s mercy and forgiveness, He will punish us as our deeds deserve (Jer. 21:14). God is patient with us in His kindness because He desires that we be saved. He doesn’t wait all this time for a sinner’s conversion because He wants to punish them in due time, but rather the opposite. God’s kindness and patience provide an opportunity for us to repent and be saved. His kindness is meant to lead us to repentance and salvation (Rom 2:4; 2 Pet 3:15). So we should never complain as Esau did for being punished for our sins (Lam 3:39).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who wills all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 3-4

Because of the fall which God foresaw when he created the world, it was His predestined (not predetermined) plan and His grace that went before Him to enable us to be saved. By His antecedent will, God desires that everyone be saved. So a person must wilfully reject God’s ‘predestined’ plan for his salvation in order to be damned. God intends that a soul be saved this way: by not rejecting His word and resisting His grace. In consequence of the reprobate’s act, God has predestined him to eternal damnation by His consequent will. With this will we can perceive God as not being self-contradictory – willing two different things at once – but as completely faithful to Himself. God does desire that everyone come to repentance and be saved (antecedent will/desire), but He is also a just God who doesn’t tolerate sin and will punish those who refuse to repent (consequent will/decree). ‘The soul who sins is the one who will die’ (Ezek. 18:4). Thus, what God has not intended is to predetermine the eternal destiny of souls, which is why He appeals to us to cooperate with His saving grace.

***Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 18, 32 ***

:heaven:

Hi!

Excellent exegesis on Esau… it often confounds people to read in Scriptures that God loved Jacob but hated Esau… they limit themselves to that particular rendering/depiction of God’s relationship with the twins… they do not connect God’s Omniscience and Omnipresence to Scriptures… ‘He Knew me before I was conceived (formed) in my mother’s womb…’ It is from this Knowledge that God Acts!

We were all predestined, in Christ’s Jesus, before the founding of the world, to become children of God–alas, not every heart turns to and Trusts Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Good Fella and Dorothy,

Thanks.
I hesitated before sending my previous post.

We are here to build each other up. So while I want to be truthful and open, I do not want to submit anything that is unhelpful.

Hi, Noel!

…I follow your thought…

…but in order to be completely assured that what is posted will be fully useful to others one must know the mind of others (an impossibility for man); as you’ve stated, we are called to Build the Body of Christ… when one member hurts/is sad/is going through turmoil… the rest of the Body suffers along…

…clearly, not all posters are seeking the Truth or have a generous heart… but those who do, though they might not be experts, by allowing the Holy Spirit to Move through them, they can offer words of encouragement and even help expel ignorance of Faith and Scriptures.

…you also stated that you were hesitant… perhaps this means that you must open up a little… what is it that you thought lacking or what is it that you thought not on point? …by expanding on your thought you may allow for a deeper Revelation of the Holy Spirit!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Dorothy]

Good Fella and Dorothy,

Thanks.
I hesitated before sending my previous post.

We are here to build each other up. So while I want to be truthful and open, I do not want to submit anything that is unhelpful.

Thank you for your note Noel! God bless…

Dorothy

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi!

Excellent exegesis on Esau… it often confounds people to read in Scriptures that God loved Jacob but hated Esau… they limit themselves to that particular rendering/depiction of God’s relationship with the twins… they do not connect God’s Omniscience and Omnipresence to Scriptures… ‘He Knew me before I was conceived (formed) in my mother’s womb…’ It is from this Knowledge that God Acts!

We were all predestined, in Christ’s Jesus, before the founding of the world, to become children of God–alas, not every heart turns to and Trusts Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi! :tiphat: And thanks.

It is certainly God’s intention that everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Yet what God desires of us doesn’t necessarily transpire. Still, God always acts with necessity when He exercises His will. It is with necessity that we must draw near to Him if we hope to be saved. Jesus says: “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt 11:29).

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

• 1 Tim, 3-4

The translation in the New Revised Version Catholic Edition leaves no room for ambiguity that has created much misunderstanding among many Protestants, notably Calvinists who argue that everything God intends and wills must come to pass. This is true, but God hasn’t decreed with necessity that all people comprise only the elect by arbitrary choice. What God doesn’t intend is that we have no choice in the matter.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[jcrichton]

Hi! :tiphat: And thanks.

It is certainly God’s intention that everyone be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Yet what God desires of us doesn’t necessarily transpire. Still, God always acts with necessity when He exercises His will. It is with necessity that we must draw near to Him if we hope to be saved. Jesus says: “Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls” (Matt 11:29).

This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

• 1 Tim, 3-4

The translation in the New Revised Version Catholic Edition leaves no room for ambiguity that has created much misunderstanding among many Protestants, notably Calvinists who argue that everything God intends and wills must come to pass. This is true, but God hasn’t decreed with necessity that all people comprise only the elect by arbitrary choice. What God doesn’t intend is that we have no choice in the matter.

PAX
:heaven:

Hi!

…yeah, it is sad how people come to their conclusions… more so how others run with these flawed *definitions *of God…

It is beyond me how a reasonable person would read Scriptures and not finding such Teachings still adopt theologies that makes God into an emotional willy-nilly that wills some to damnation and some to Salvation through some whim or roulette spin… and they blindly follow even against Yahweh God’s Own Word:

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord Yahweh: therefore turn yourselves, and live

. (Ezekiel 18:31-32)
Since it is God Himself, not Calvin or others, that makes this statement, why would anyone believe that God engages in predestination and condemnation at whim?

Sadly, it seems that, to them, it is easier to believe in a God according to man’s image and likeness than to Believe God Who Calls us to Be Holy as He is Holy!

Maran atha!

Angel