A question about Romans 9

[Timothy524]

Thank you oh so very much for those that have continued to post here and offer encouragement. Sometimes some of the things i read give me a glimmer of hope that with time and prayer, God will be faithful with lifting me from my valley.

I have been working on working on writing a reply. I have almost completed it. However, with so many comments since I last wrote, it is taking sometime. Please stay posted and thank you once more.

 

[Gadgeteer]

I feel like I might be a vessel of wrath. My past definitely would suggest this.

You absolutely were a “vessel of wrath” – now, please read Eph2:3. We ALL were "children of wrath (orge-Hell), the same as the rest". Here is the deepest secret of Christianity — God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, you cannot do anything to please Him — except to realize that He LOVES you (unconditionally), that HE is our cleansing and our righteousness and all our worth. (Isaiah 61:10).

God loves you completely, so much that He sent His only Son to die for YOU. Do you understand that? Do you know it?

Read the context of Eph2 (verses 1-10); WHEN we were dead in our sins, Christ died for us—the Just for the unjust. He is our cleansing, our righteousness, our heart. “The Lord is my strength and my song, and has become my salvation!” Psalm118:14

I wonder if I was created for destruction to make known the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy. My past is full of intentional sin, impulsiveness, poor choices, cursing and shaking my spoiled fists at God at times.

I would like you to read Jeremiah 29:11-13. Go ahead, I’ll wait.

Done? Does that apply to you? Why wouldn’t it? If you were the last person on Earth and Jesus had to die for YOU, would He?

In a heartbeat! YOUR name was on His lips as He hung there dying! He loved you, you were the reason He suffered!

Do you understand that? Do you KNOW it?

I am wondering if I was prepared for wailing and grinding of teeth. If I was formed to show the justice of God. The consequences of my sin has affected my friendships declining in terms of phone calls and visitors, I have two friends, I rarely see or talk to them, I broke up with my girlfriend because I didn’t feel like she trusted me to move onto the next stages of life. I live with my parents, I barely talk to my brother, I have not been a successful teacher and have gone to working at Home Depot part time. My faith and prayer life is in shambles. I see my friends, brother, and ex-girlfriend prospering. It seems like my sins have caught up to me and that I am an example for all to witness. Is this possible? Can I what I think I was created for?

Debbie:

You said your past life was full of sin. I think that is the key. You see the destruction sin has caused and you are looking for a better way to turn your life around. It takes time. You might want to read, or reread about the lives of some saints who were in the same situation, like St. Augustine, or St. Francis of Assisi. Our will is not set until our last breath. Remember the good thief on the cross next to Jesus?

Amen, Debbie.
CB:

Your thinking leaves out the whole part about God’s mercy. God does not use people in this manner. And also it sounds as if you are depressed and need to talk to someone. God is waiting for you to accept His forgiveness and love–please seek spiritual and even medical help if necessary. This is something you can’t handle alone.

Emphatically agree, CB. Both about “God’s mercy”, and “seek professional help”. It is not wrong or weak to stop along life’s road and ask directions; rather, it is often failure NOT to.

Tim, God has a flaw – did you know that? A deficiency, shortcoming. It’s fully intentional. See Heb8:12 – He has a BAD MEMORY, when He forgives us! It is as if we have never sinned!

Please read Matt7:2-27; if you or I build our “self worth” and “identity” on Jesus the ROCK, we do not need validation or approval from flawed Humans. For He loves us, and it is enough. Sure our houses will suffer a torn shingle or broken window; so too do we have scars from life’s battles. But we will STAND, because He loved us and died for us and became our foundation.

Please find someone in person with whom you can counsel; and rebuke the devil (but only once, then claim the victory!) – rebuke the devil for whispering that you are worthless and too corrupt, God could not love you. OH YES HE DOES! Read Luke10:17-19, and then read verse 20, it’s the key. Read James4:5-10 — draw near to Him and He draws near to you. Fill your heart so fulol of Him that there is no room for the sorrow and pain.

That’s the only way to win over sin; don’t fight it (you will lose) – but fill your heart with Jesus and the Spirit (Eph5:18), and your sin was already conquered two thousand years ago from atop the Cross (Col2:14).

Does that all make sense? (You know it does!)

{{{{{Timothy}}}}}

(Those are hugs!)

 

[Gadgeteer]

…rebuke the devil for whispering that you are worthless and too corrupt, God could not love you. OH YES HE DOES! Read Luke10:17-19, and then read verse 20, it’s the key. Read James4:5-10 — draw near to Him and He draws near to you. Fill your heart so full of Him that there is no room for the sorrow and pain.

It is a mistake to spend time fighting with the devil; after all, he’s only a fallen angel. And how smart was it to get kicked outta Heaven? If we hate him, then we’re giving him real-estate in our thoughts, and we’re hating; he wins twice. Focus on GOD, and enter within the veil to truly fellowship with Him. When we fill ourselves with His presence, we have no room for sin or the devil. The closer we are to Him, the farther we are from sin.

That’s why it’s so critical for us to promote Jesus’ message, especially the truth that salvation is a real fellowship between two real people (John17:3, 1Jn1:3). We are united with Jesus (Rom6:1-7), it is no accident He calls Himself “the Bridegroom”, and we are “the bride”.

In Matt6 is what has come to be known as “The Lord’s Prayer”. One point in His prayer He considers important enough to expound upon after the prayer is finished; forgiveness. If we do not forgive others, neither will He forgive us.

Now – it’s an incredible realization, that WE OURSELVES are one of “those we must forgive”. If we do not forgive OURSELVES for past mistakes, then we raise ourselves above GOD. We reject His forgiveness, and we do not have that authority. We cannot change what we did; and — in fact, when we are saved, we are not the same person as the one who did those sins.

2Cor5:17!

“Uhm, no, I’m sorry, those old sins — they were done by someone ELSE. I am a new creation, a different person than the ‘old man/woman’ who did those sins. I am not accountable for his crimes, I am someone else now. As I abide in Him, He’s completely forgotten what that other guy did — why should I remember them? Except to make sure I never travel that same path again; for He is the lamp before my feet, and He leads me in His paths of righteousness. I am a new creation, and I will exult in His presence, forever.”

 

[jcrichton]

You absolutely were a “vessel of wrath” – now, please read Eph2:3. We ALL were "children of wrath (orge-Hell), the same as the rest". Here is the deepest secret of Christianity —** God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, **you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, you cannot do anything to please Him — except to realize that He LOVES you (unconditionally), that HE is our cleansing and our righteousness and all our worth. (Isaiah 61:10).

Hi!

Your post was very lively… loaded with Scriptures and conviction… could you expand on your the highlighted statement?

Thank you!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous

Hi!

Your post was very lively… loaded with Scriptures and conviction…

The thing about me (what I want others to understand), I know we will have disagreements. “We”, being SAVED BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I presume everyone here is a brother or sister in Christ, and my deepest heart’s desire is to continue being family in Jesus’ presence, forever. (Each of you is the treasure that I can take with me, into eternity!)

To have a discussion, there must be some common ground; some basis of agreement. We have a book we call the Bible. Paul says in 2Tim3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God” (literally, “God-breathed”). Yes I know some copies have more books than others. And I know that when Paul wrote that, he was thinking more of the OT. But the writings we (brothers and sisters) have in common, let this be our agreement — that no one is merely asserting opinions, but rather “earnestly contending for the faith” (Jude3).

In our interactions, may our focus be on celebrating Jesus together, to not fight or dispute, but to correct and move each other closer to Him.

Does anyone disagree with these ideals?

could you expand on your the highlighted statement?

Certainly – it is my privilege. I read Paul in Romans3:10 “there is none righteous, not one”; and Rom3:23, “all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory”.

Isaiah64:6, “we are all unclean, all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags”. (The Hebrew meaning is far worse than just “filthy rags”! )

 

[Gadgeteer]

Now, there are two things that happen to a believer; we are “justified”, declared righteous, and we are “sanctified” made righteous. It is all HIS righteousness, none of ours. I love Isaiah61:10; He has clothed me with HIS garments of righteousness!

Paul says we WERE justified, we WERE sanctified, we WERE washed in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit… (1Cor6:11)

It doesn’t matter if we consider sanctification as a done deal, or a life-long walk; our agreement is it is something in which we must abide. Surely no one disputes that Heb10:29 speaks of one who WAS SANCTIFIED (by Jesus’ blood!), but now tramples Jesus (who once indwelt him), insults the Spirit (who once filled him), and scorns the very blood that once sanctified him?

That man is US, if we “continue willfully sinning”, Heb10:26!

Romans5 is an excellent lesson; Paul teaches that condemnation came to men, ALL men — conditionally. To be condemned, each must sin. Verse 12 states that all of us sinned, and meet the condition.

So too did justification come conditionally; verse 17 states that we receive the abundance of grace, and the gift of righteousness. That’s it – righteousness is a gift that we receive, from Him, to us. The condition is that we have to receive it, and walk in it and Jesus (Col2:6-8).

I come to the Cross bringing in my hands — nothing. But my heart is full of gratitude, that He loved me and died for me. I do not understand such love, but I’m very glad He did.

Thank you!

Maran atha!

Angel

It is my honor. I have posted here thinking I had something to contribute; I pray that I am not alone in that thinking, that I have said something of value. May each of us truly serve Jesus, and be used by Him for, and a blessing to, those who claim Him as Lord and Savior.

 

[NoelFitz]

• Gadgeteer: God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, you cannot do anything to please Him --*

---

As I have been very busy recently I have not had time to be here often, but I read what Gadgeteer wrote tonight, and consider (s)he expresses very accurately traditional Lutheran teaching, which interests me in this the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

Luther believed that grace does not change us, but by grace God considers us righteous (imputed grace), while Catholics hold grace transforms us (infused grace). At present I believe many Protestants hold that we are changed by God’s grace.

However we are all agreed that grace is initially given to us completely gratuitously and not as a reward for works or based on our merit, which is nil without grace. This goes back to Augustine and the idea of prevenient, advenient or antecedent grace.

I read in Ott (p 227)
The Church’s teaching of the existence of antecedent grace and its necessity for the achievement of justification was defined at the Council of Trent.

De fide the Church teaches that no supernatural merit precedes grace.

So in many ways Catholics and Lutherans are not so far apart.

I am reminded of St Paul.
*But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8 NAB)
*

 

[jcrichton]

The thing about me (what I want others to understand), I know we will have disagreements. “We”, being SAVED BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I presume everyone here is a brother or sister in Christ, and my deepest heart’s desire is to continue being family in Jesus’ presence, forever. (Each of you is the treasure that I can take with me, into eternity!)

To have a discussion, there must be some common ground; some basis of agreement. We have a book we call the Bible. Paul says in 2Tim3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God” (literally, “God-breathed”). Yes I know some copies have more books than others. And I know that when Paul wrote that, he was thinking more of the OT. But the writings we (brothers and sisters) have in common, let this be our agreement — that no one is merely asserting opinions, but rather “earnestly contending for the faith” (Jude3).

In our interactions, may our focus be on celebrating Jesus together, to not fight or dispute, but to correct and move each other closer to Him.

Does anyone disagree with these ideals?

Certainly – it is my privilege. I read Paul in Romans3:10 “there is none righteous, not one”; and Rom3:23, “all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory”.

Isaiah64:6, “we are all unclean, all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags”. (The Hebrew meaning is far worse than just “filthy rags”! )

Hi!

…yeah, from your expression I understood that you were not Catholic… I’m not challenging your faith base or implying that there’s no room for you here–this site is purported to be “in search of God,” right?.. How could I answer to Christ for rejecting anyone whose heart was thirsting for Him and for Fellowship in Him? (1 John 4:9-21)

…as you have suggested we are linked by Faith in Christ Jesus… which should be the focus of the exchange… but I have come across many understandings… some with underlined Catholic and other Christian influences… others… well clearly out of this world!

So I’ve become accustomed to listening to my intuition… a red flag arose so I asked for clarification… there are those who teach that man can do nothing because Christ has done it all… yet, they evolve into a sin-as-you-go theology where man is never to answer for anything because Christ has already covered all the world’s sins from Adam till the Parousia… which would lead us right back to Calvin and the likes…

I was hoping that you would expand on the understanding that there’s nothing that man can do because it is God’s Grace that Accomplishes all… but that man must cooperate with God’s Grace in order for him to be able to abide in God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Now, there are two things that happen to a believer; we are “justified”, declared righteous, and we are “sanctified” made righteous. It is all HIS righteousness, none of ours. I love Isaiah61:10; He has clothed me with HIS garments of righteousness!

Paul says we WERE justified, we WERE sanctified, we WERE washed in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit… (1Cor6:11)

It doesn’t matter if we consider sanctification as a done deal, or a life-long walk; our agreement is it is something in which we must abide. Surely no one disputes that Heb10:29 speaks of one who WAS SANCTIFIED (by Jesus’ blood!), but now tramples Jesus (who once indwelt him), insults the Spirit (who once filled him), and scorns the very blood that once sanctified him?

That man is US, if we “continue willfully sinning”, Heb10:26!

Romans5 is an excellent lesson; Paul teaches that condemnation came to men, ALL men — conditionally. To be condemned, each must sin. Verse 12 states that all of us sinned, and meet the condition.

So too did justification come conditionally; verse 17 states that we receive the abundance of grace, and the gift of righteousness. That’s it – righteousness is a gift that we receive, from Him, to us. The condition is that we have to receive it, and walk in it and Jesus (Col2:6-8).

I come to the Cross bringing in my hands — nothing. But my heart is full of gratitude, that He loved me and died for me. I do not understand such love, but I’m very glad He did.

It is my honor. I have posted here thinking I had something to contribute; I pray that I am not alone in that thinking, that I have said something of value. May each of us truly serve Jesus, and be used by Him for, and a blessing to, those who claim Him as Lord and Savior.

Hi!

…again, please do not misunderstand my query… I do this as a matter of exercise… (you’re not being singled out for any reason).

I also do not engage in double speak… I acknowledged your response because I thought it was a good response… so your contribution is being acknowledged, at least by me (but I’m sure others, who may not be as forward, have come to the same conclusion).

Welcome Home (…yeah, you may not be part of this particular affiliation, but the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and there’s only One Body–even if cousins far removed)!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

• Gadgeteer: God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, you cannot do anything to please Him --*

---

As I have been very busy recently I have not had time to be here often, but I read what Gadgeteer wrote tonight, and consider (s)he expresses very accurately traditional Lutheran teaching, which interests me in this the 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

Hi, Noel! No, I’m not Lutheran. I was actually raised Presbyterian – but since I clearly see Scripture’s opposition to all three forms of OSAS, I’m certainly not a member there.

Luther believed that grace does not change us, but by grace God considers us righteous (imputed grace), while Catholics hold grace transforms us (infused grace). At present I believe many Protestants hold that we are changed by God’s grace.

Grace absolutely DOES change us; Paul says “anyone in Christ is a new creation – the old has passed away and all has become new”.

Of course, that must also embrace verses like Eph4:20-22, we are commanded to continuously “lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new spiritual man”.

However we are all agreed that grace is initially given to us completely gratuitously and not as a reward for works or based on our merit, which is nil without grace. This goes back to Augustine and the idea of prevenient, advenient or antecedent grace.

Amen. Back further to Paul — “If it be by works, then grace is no longer grace.” Rom11:6.

I read in Ott (p 227)
The Church’s teaching of the existence of antecedent grace and its necessity for the achievement of justification was defined at the Council of Trent.

De fide the Church teaches that no supernatural merit precedes grace.

So in many ways Catholics and Lutherans are not so far apart.

I saw this post, asserting that Lutherans do hold to a form of Sovereign Predestination (Reformed Theology). God does not predestine anyone to any eternity; is Rom2:4-11 not crystal clear? God’s patience leads to repentance, even those who stubbornly refuse and store wrath for themselves…

I am reminded of St Paul.
*But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8 NAB)
*

Excellent! “Christ died for all, therefore all died!” That’s provision, I’ve also written a refutation against Universalism…

 

[vash88]

Timothy, I feel like I know what you’re going through. I often have the same thoughts about my own life. I was just reading Romans last night in fact and had the same thoughts you had in the first post.

I still struggle with it. It’s hard to read certain parts of scripture sometimes when it so clearly reflects on your past mistakes and makes you worry. I was a spoiled kid who made plenty of bad choices and now as an adult I struggle with discipline and that can sometimes put me in difficult situations that I don’t always know how to get out of. I sometimes feel like my heart is hard because I’m just so tired of having to right all the wrongs since doing so can be difficult. I wish I had a good answer for you, but perhaps knowing you’re not alone will help somewhat. What I will say is that I will pray for you and hope you do the same for me.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…yeah, from your expression I understood that you were not Catholic…

No, I’m not Catholic. But my understanding of Scripture is MUCH closer to Catholic than it is to Reformed.

Do you agree that all three views of “OSAS”, are really only repeating what satan told Eve in the Garden? "Don’t worry, you won’t really die."

I’m not challenging your faith base or implying that there’s no room for you here–this site is purported to be “in search of God,” right?.. How could I answer to Christ for rejecting anyone whose heart was thirsting for Him and for Fellowship in Him? (1 John 4:9-21)

You are very honorable. No two people on Earth will agree on everything; the key is to tolerate difference, celebrate agreement, and fellowship together looking for the time when there will BE no differences in theology; for Jesus will return, and we will all be one in His presence.

…I say “celebrate agreement and tolerate differences”, with consideration of the fact that we actually have words written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, James, Jude, and so much by Paul. Did you see what I said about Calvinism and 1Cor2:14? In A. W. Pink’s book, “The Sovereignty of God” (I think page 98), in R. C. Sproul’s “Chosen by God”, and in most any other RT text, they clearly state "1Cor2:14 proves that unregenerate men cannot believe and be saved; their hearts must be changed by God FIRST."

But it’s not just a discussion between them, and me, and you; we really can reach back in time and bring PAUL solidly into the discussion. And Paul says in 1Cor2:12 that we must receive the Spirit IN ORDER TO GET the “things” that natural men do not understand. There are only a few possibilities for the passage:

1. An unbelieving unrepentant sinner receives the Spirit (He indwells their sin!)
2. There are two kinds of “receive”, one superficial (without belief) and one indwelling
3. The “THINGS” in verses 9-14 are the deeper things of the Spirit that are given to the SAVED

Number one is silly; the Spirit will not indwell someone who is unrepentant.
Number two is equally silly; Scripture only teaches ONE “lambano-receive”, it’s after belief (Acts11:17).

Number three is the only possibility. We have to be saved in order to receive the Spirit, only THEN are those “things” taught. (That fits Matt13, “to he who HAS [salvation!], more is given [deeper things, parable explanations!]”.) The passage only says that natural men HAVE not believed, in no sense can the Reformed position of “they-cannot-believe” continue.

Do you see the dynamic, Jcrichton? When we can show what the Apostles wrote solidly reflects one particular view, then it’s not valid for anyone to “just agree to disagree” and walk away when they are in fact opposing what the Apostles wrote. All the Reformed books have to have 1Cor2:14 removed, unless they can come up with a #4 to explain verse 12.

…as you have suggested we are linked by Faith in Christ Jesus… which should be the focus of the exchange… but I have come across many understandings… some with underlined Catholic and other Christian influences… others… well clearly out of this world!

So I’ve become accustomed to listening to my intuition… a red flag arose so I asked for clarification… there are those who teach that man can do nothing because Christ has done it all… yet, they evolve into a sin-as-you-go theology where man is never to answer for anything because Christ has already covered all the world’s sins from Adam till the Parousia… which would lead us right back to Calvin and the likes…

I was hoping that you would expand on the understanding that there’s nothing that man can do because it is God’s Grace that Accomplishes all… but that man must cooperate with God’s Grace in order for him to be able to abide in God.

I see that what I said was inadequate. To be clear — you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that “man must cooperate with God’s grace”.

I like Robertson, whose commentaries are usually right (I’ve found him wrong in only a couple places). On Eph2:8, A.T.Robertson says “Grace is God’s part, faith is ours”.

Did you see my comment on Rom1:17? Going to Greek, “ek pistew ei pistin” — from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal; literally from beginning faith to ending faith. We choose both how our faith begins, and how it ends. Thus, Jude’s “building yourselves in holy faith” (20, and 21 “keep yourselves in His love”), Paul’s “having begun in the Spirit are you ending in the flesh?” (Gal3:3), and “he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Jesus!), and others!

Forgive me for not being clearer. You see you and I are more in agreement than not.
Nooooo, you and I agree with SCRIPTURE.



PS – the entire letter of Galatians is warning against “falling-from-salvation”. In what Universe is 4:9’s words, “You WERE KNOWN by God” not truly speaking of the saved, and 5:4’s words “you are severed from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE”, not truly speaking of becoming unsaved?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Timothy, I feel like I know what you’re going through. I often have the same thoughts about my own life. I was just reading Romans last night in fact and had the same thoughts you had in the first post.

What part of Romans, Vash? Do you like the teaching from chapters 6-8? Chapter six is all about “being begotten of God”. Then seven’s conflict between the old sinfulness, and the new godliness; Paul cries out in anguish “wretched man that I am, who will SAVE me from this war within my members?!” And chapter eight is the solution to the war.

I still struggle with it. It’s hard to read certain parts of scripture sometimes when it so clearly reflects on your past mistakes and makes you worry. I was a spoiled kid who made plenty of bad choices and now as an adult I struggle with discipline and that can sometimes put me in difficult situations that I don’t always know how to get out of. I sometimes feel like my heart is hard because I’m just so tired of having to right all the wrongs since doing so can be difficult.

Maybe you’re trying to hard? See Rom8:3 — what we could not do, weak as our flesh was, God DID. He knows we’re weak, so He sent the Son to die in our place! See John16:33 — "in this world you will have tribulation; but take courage, for I have overcome the world." And 1Jn4:9, “greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world.”

What does it mean when we sin, or when we “get in things that are hard to get out of”? It means maybe we should reread passages like James4. We resist the devil and he flees; we submit therefore to God, we draw near to Him and He draws near to us.

That’s what it means when we sin — it’s just indication that we need to be closer to Him. The more we dwell in Jesus’ presence, the more that we fill ourselves with the Spirit (Eph5:18), the farther we are from sin and the more His victory becomes ours.

Make sense?

I wish I had a good answer for you, but perhaps knowing you’re not alone will help somewhat. What I will say is that I will pray for you and hope you do the same for me.

I guarantee you helped him, and me; and I will join you in that prayer.

God has wonderful things planned for each of us. Yes it’s a fallen world, and sometimes there are car wrecks and cancer and injured people and friends who leave us; we do not understand. But we were born with nothing, we take nothing with us when we die (except for the friendships of brothers and sisters we’ve made!), everything in between is on loan anyway. Have you read Ecclesiastes? He really pondered “what does it all mean, what’s it worth?”

See what you think his conclusion is!!!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…again, please do not misunderstand my query… I do this as a matter of exercise… (you’re not being singled out for any reason).

I also do not engage in double speak… I acknowledged your response because I thought it was a good response… so your contribution is being acknowledged, at least by me (but I’m sure others, who may not be as forward, have come to the same conclusion).

Welcome Home (…yeah, you may not be part of this particular affiliation, but the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ and there’s only One Body–even if cousins far removed)!

Maran atha!

Angel

It’s too bad this board does not have a “reputation” button; I would absolutely rep you for this post!

Consider yourself hugged.

 

[jcrichton]

No, I’m not Catholic. But my understanding of Scripture is MUCH closer to Catholic than it is to Reformed.

Hi!

…yeah, you through me for a spin (I read all post of the threads I join)… I wondered why you did not disclose the Faith… I thought… another bashful Catholic…

…then you juiced it up… I recognized a fervor that was past most Catholics…

…then the format demonstrated not quite Catholic… but I was glad to see you engaging the Word with so high fervor!

Do you agree that all three views of “OSAS”, are really only repeating what satan told Eve in the Garden? "Don’t worry, you won’t really die."

…you’re the first person that has openly placed it in those terms… but, in my estimation as well, it is true… it’s the false teaching that God is in error and/or that man can disobey God and yet compel Him to grant him Salvation regardless of his determination to remain unrighteous and to reject God’s Authority. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

You are very honorable. No two people on Earth will agree on everything; the key is to tolerate

difference, celebrate agreement, and fellowship together looking for the time when there will BE no differences in theology; for Jesus will return, and we will all be one in His presence.

…I say “celebrate agreement and tolerate differences”, with consideration of the fact that we actually have words written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, James, Jude, and so much by Paul. Did you see what I said about Calvinism and 1Cor2:14? In A. W. Pink’s book, “The Sovereignty of God” (I think page 98), in R. C. Sproul’s “Chosen by God”, and in most any other RT text, they clearly state "1Cor2:14 proves that unregenerate men cannot believe and be saved; their hearts must be changed by God FIRST."

But it’s not just a discussion between them, and me, and you; we really can reach back in time and bring PAUL solidly into the discussion. And Paul says in 1Cor2:12 that we must receive the Spirit IN ORDER TO GET the “things” that natural men do not understand. There are only a few possibilities for the passage:

1. An unbelieving unrepentant sinner receives the Spirit (He indwells their sin!)
2. There are two kinds of “receive”, one superficial (without belief) and one indwelling
3. The “THINGS” in verses 9-14 are the deeper things of the Spirit that are given to the SAVED

Number one is silly; the Spirit will not indwell someone who is unrepentant.
Number two is equally silly; Scripture only teaches ONE “lambano-receive”, it’s after belief (Acts11:17).

Number three is the only possibility. We have to be saved in order to receive the Spirit, only THEN are those “things” taught. (That fits Matt13, “to he who HAS [salvation!], more is given [deeper things, parable explanations!]”.) The passage only says that natural men HAVE not believed, in no sense can the Reformed position of “they-cannot-believe” continue.

Do you see the dynamic, Jcrichton? When we can show what the Apostles wrote solidly reflects one particular view, then it’s not valid for anyone to “just agree to disagree” and walk away when they are in fact opposing what the Apostles wrote. All the Reformed books have to have 1Cor2:14 removed, unless they can come up with a #4 to explain verse 12.
…the problem is that man tends to elevate things… (ego trips trip our attempt to clarify things); in a way they are correct… but only slightly… Jesus tells us that no one can come to Him unless the Father sends them… where they go wrong is by ignoring the fact that God wants all to be Saved so it is inherently given to man to seek God… this of course does not mean that all men will want to seek God (St. John 3:14-21); still, God does not work on the heart of unbelievers… that would negate free-will! God can only work on man once he willingly submits to God’s Fellowship.

I see that what I said was inadequate. To be clear — you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT

that “man must cooperate with God’s grace”.

I like Robertson, whose commentaries are usually right (I’ve found him wrong in only a couple places). On Eph2:8, A.T.Robertson says “Grace is God’s part, faith is ours”.

Did you see my comment on Rom1:17? Going to Greek, “ek pistew ei pistin” — from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal; literally from beginning faith to ending faith. We choose both how our faith begins, and how it ends. Thus, Jude’s “building yourselves in holy faith” (20, and 21 “keep yourselves in His love”), Paul’s “having begun in the Spirit are you ending in the flesh?” (Gal3:3), and “he who endures to the end shall be saved” (Jesus!), and others!
…it seems we were right on the same target… but an expression (that usually follows a conviction narrative liken to the Mormons’ bait and switch tactics seem to have popped up)… you were not inadequate, just curt… so I wanted to give you the opportunity to expand–both for my benefit and that of the thread.

Forgive me for not being clearer. You see you and I are more in agreement than not.
Nooooo, you and I agree with SCRIPTURE.

…and that is the beginning of personal agreement between Christians; engaging the Word of God with the same end… building the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

PS – the entire letter of Galatians is warning against “falling-from-salvation”. In what Universe is 4:9’s words, “You WERE KNOWN by God” not truly speaking of the saved, and 5:4’s words “you are severed from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE”, not truly speaking of becoming unsaved?

Part II



I must confess… though we don’t know each other… we seem to be on the same side of the one coin!

You’ve expressed my thoughts exactly… how can a reasonable person not understand such passages?.. but then I begin to relax and I realize that it is not reason that blinds people but the ole NY NY song… “…and I did it, my way!”

Man wants to have the cake and eat too…

Man wants to claim regeneration, justification, forgiveness and salvation while holding on to the old self–everything is on God: God must Save man because He must!

…of course Jesus spoke much on this issue… ‘…why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?’ ‘…not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter Heaven, but he that does the Will of my Father…’ ‘because wide is the gate and broad is the is the way that leads to destruction…’

Clearly, we must do it Christ’s Way!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

Here is the deepest secret of Christianity — God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, …
you cannot do anything to please Him — except to realize that He LOVES you unconditionally, that HE is our cleansing and our righteousness and all our worth. (Isaiah 61:10).
Read James4:5-10 — draw near to Him and He draws near to you.

Isn’t drawing near to God doing something?

True, God makes the sun rise on both the good and the wicked and sends His rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt 5:45); neither is their partiality in God (Rom 2:11). Yet the righteousness God desires that we must have to please Him can only be obtained by doing what pleases Him. God certainly desires that everyone draw themselves to Him, and this involves doing what is right. Those who practice righteousness are righteous and not merely declared to be righteous while they themselves aren’t (1 Jn 3:7, 10). The blood of Jesus “cleanses” (καθαρίζει) us from our sins, but unless we “walk in the light as he is in the light”, our Lord’s blood won’t personally apply to us. The Greek word for “cleanse” (purify) is (καθαρίζω / katharizó) which means an actual infused cleansing of the soul by God’s sanctifying grace, not a fictional cleansing through the imputation of Christ’s external and alien righteousness to us for having placed our faith in his merits. John is clear. Our salvation is conditional. If we Christian believers don’t have fellowship with one another, the blood of Jesus won’t cleanse us from our sins. Our charity towards each other, expressed by our good works done in grace, sanctify our souls making us just and pleasing to God. It is this sanctifying grace that Christ alone has merited for us by his blood and work on the Cross that makes us righteous (1 Jn 1:7. 9). “Everyone who does what is right has been born of him” (1 Jn 2:29). All who have placed their hope in the resurrection must “purify themselves as he is pure” (1 Jn 3:1-3). St. Paul teaches us that we must ‘cleanse ourselves’ from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1). Action is called for on our part, if we hope to be made holy by drawing near to God and co-operating with the actual graces (i.e., charity, chastity, contrition, patience, fortitude, etc.) He bestows for our increase in sanctification and justification.

We read in Romans 4:3, with respect to Abraham, it was “credited” (ἐλογίσθη) to him as righteousness. The Greek word means that God made a book entry of Abraham’s obedient act of faith. God considered Abraham’s virtue of faith which was a personal aspect of his. God records what there actually is in the being of a person and does not record a phony entry in the book of life. When Abraham obeyed God to sacrifice his son to Him, he believed, according to Jewish tradition, that God would raise his son from the dead, since God had said that He would make an everlasting promise to Isaac and his descendants (Gen 17:19). But Abraham’s faith would have been of no benefit to him unless it were translated into action. His steadfast trust in God (the essence of faith in Judaism) could hold no merit unless he acted in obedience because of his genuine trust. Abraham’s faith was completed by his obedient act of faith. Thus, God said to Abraham: ““By myself I have sworn, says the Lord: Because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore… by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice” (Gen 22:16-18). Surely, Abraham didn’t act because he felt he had no choice in the matter. But he understood that by trustfully obeying God, the Divine promise would be fulfilled. He merited for himself the reward of God’s promise, produced by Him alone, by his salutary act of faith: a genuine trust in God. As children of Abraham, our lively faith isn’t an aspect of Christ who possessed the Beatific Vison of God in his earthly life. ‘Faith is the evidence of what is unseen, confidence in what is hoped for’ (Heb 11:1).

To be continued.

:heaven:

 

[Good_Fella]

Further, there is something even more important we must do if we hope to be reckoned as righteous before God and thereby saved; that is acknowledge and confess our sins to God “with a broken spirit and contrite heart”. God takes no pleasure in any personal sacrifice of ours unless it is offered in a repentant faith (Ps 51:16-17). What pleases God is that we humbly bow down before Him and entrust ourselves to His mercy and love. God thoroughly blots out our personal transgressions and cleanses us from all our iniquities on condition that we undergo a genuine change of heart with the help of His grace. Because of our interior disposition, wrought by the Holy Spirit in our collaboration with Him, our sins are completely wiped out and their stains removed from our souls. Our sins aren’t merely covered up and concealed from God’s sight. By collaborating with the Holy Spirit, we are calling upon God to create a clean heart and putting a new spirit within us (Ps 51:10). There is no need for God to just cover our sins with Christ’s exterior and alien righteousness. God is so powerful that He can bring about a genuine transformation in ourselves with His infused grace. We read in Acts 3:19: Repent, therefore, and turn again for the blotting out of your sins.’ The “blotting out” (ἐξαλειφθῆναι) literally means an actual wiping away of sin and the removal of its stain on the soul. And this requires a sincere act of faith on our part, that we “turn again” (ἐπιστρέψατε) from our sins. Justification is an ongoing process, not a one-time event that occurs when we are baptized. This is why we Catholics have the sacrament of Reconciliation. In any event, when we humbly confess our sins with a contrite heart and with firm amendment never to sin again, God’s sanctifying grace cleanses and purges the soul of all sin, as our own garments are thereby “washed whiter than snow” (Ps 51:7-9).

We aren’t “a dunghill covered in snow” as Martin Luther crudely put it. Christ’s righteousness is not imputed to us. Rather, the Holy Spirit infuses His grace into our souls which transforms our inner person. It is His sanctifying work that justifies us when we open ourselves to His healing grace. We who hunger for righteousness and draw towards God to be filled with it interiorly shall be satisfied (Matt 5:6; Lk 6:21). This inner change of heart is initiated by the prompting of the Holy Spirit who then fulfills what we desire Him to wrought in our souls. It is by this inner disposition of ours to want to be righteous as our Lord is righteous through the operation of God’s sufficient grace that we ourselves become righteous and pleasing to God by doing what He wills with the help of his co-operative efficacious grace. (1 Jn 3:7). Jesus himself says that our righteousness (not his) must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. In other words, the righteousness that justifies us before God must be our very own, embedded in our interior disposition as opposed to the exterior righteousness of those whom Jesus called hypocrites because they failed to observe the spirit of the law (Matt 5:20). Our Lord does warn us of practicing righteousness before men. (Matt 6:1). This kind of practice merely involves observing the letter of the law which can cast the wrong impression on men. Only God can read the human heart. The practice of righteousness that our Lord expects from us must proceed from an interior disposition brought about by a transformation of the inner-self with the help of divine grace. By grace we are saved. It is the interior disposition that defiles a person (Matt 15:18; Mk 7:15); sin originates from the heart.

To be continued.

:harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Moreover, St. Paul concurs: ‘For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous’ (Rom 5:19). We aren’t “made” sinners by having Adam’s guilt imputed to us no more than we are “made” righteous by having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. We are “made” sinners by our share in Adam’s nature just as we are “made” righteous by our interior change and partaking of our Lord’s divine nature through the grace He has merited for us by his obedience (cf. 2 Pet 1:4). Paul says that we are being changed into the Lord’s likeness from one degree of glory to another by the power of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:18); though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed everyday (2 Cor 4:16). Our justification is progressive, and so Paul exhorts us to “cleanse ourselves from every defilement in body and spirit” (Col 7:1). Christ doesn’t cover us, but rather is in us. His personal indwelling in our souls through the Holy Spirit brings about an internal transformation as we co-operate with his grace (2 Cor 13:5).

For this reason, it is imperative that we don’t receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). God is at work “in us”, so we must open ourselves to the power of His grace and allow its power to transform our inner nature (Phil 2:13). God isn’t outside us where He externally makes a declaration about something exterior to ourselves. His declaration affirms what He has completed in our souls by His work and our collaboration with Him. We are His creation, a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:17), being re-created daily by being “renewed in knowledge after the image of our Creator” (Col 3:10). And all that God creates He declares to be good and is real, like the light of Christ that shines within us and we are called to walk in for His greater glory (Gen 1:4; Matt 5:16). We mustn’t practice our righteousness before men like the scribes and Pharisees, but we are called to let ‘our’ light shine before them. This light emanates from our supernaturally transformed nature and is as genuinely ours as the darkness that lurks in our old nature is and which defiles us. This light shines all the more brightly as our old nature “wastes away” and our new nature is being “renewed” daily after the image of God. This can only be accomplished by first “putting on Christ” and “putting on a new nature” in the likeness of Christ. We do not clothe ourselves in Christ simply by letting him cover us from God’s sight with his external righteousness. Rather, we must have a real share in it (Rom 13:14).

Hence, what Paul is telling the Romans is that there isn’t just a relational change of status, but an objective transformation of nature, from the old Adam or old self to the new Adam or new self. We aren’t just declared righteous, but are actually “made” righteous. God’s declaration applies to an ontological change of nature and a renewed being within us wrought by His grace which Christ has merited for us. “By the obedience of the One, we are ‘made’ righteous.” (KJV). The Greek verb κατεστάθησαν (katestathesan) points to a real and genuine ontological change in our souls. We need the infusion of God’s grace into our souls, without which we can never hope to be transformed and be pleasing to Him. God calls us to draw near to Him so that we allow Him to bring about that inner change in us by His grace for our increase in sanctification and justification.

Just a little more, so please bear with me. I only want to clear up any misunderstanding that I might have of what you mean to say. It’s somewhat vague.
:harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

Finally, God loves both the just and the unjust. Nothing we do can diminish the love God has for us, since God is love. Love is an essential attribute of God. But so is His justice and mercy. In His mercy, God calls us to draw near to Him, since He desires everyone to be saved. But God’s righteousness demands that we reciprocate His love with ours to be saved. We must respond to God’s love by showing Him our love in return. Our love for God must correspond with His love for us. St. Paul tells us: “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing” (1 Cor 13:2). In other words, what makes us worthy as human beings is God’s favour to us because of our love for Him. What makes a person better than another person who is equally loved by God is the greater blessing He has bestowed upon him for abiding in His love.

Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15). It isn’t enough to reap God’s spiritual blessings by simply saying “I love God” or thinking “God loves me”. We can love God only because he has first loved us. His goodness and mercy gives us cause to love Him. By denying our love to God, we offend His goodness and kindness. This is the beauty of God: In His infinite greatness and all sufficiency, He desires that we love Him. God has revealed Himself as a Father to his beloved children. God does not depend on us for His existence, nor can anything we do affect the equilibrium of His essence, but He still desires that we love Him as He loves us, for God is a personal being. God’s true children, by their fidelity to Him, are born of God and know Him. And they can only know Him by being able to love, since God is love. God’s children must be like their heavenly Father to abide in His love. We should love God and our neighbour because of the love God has for all His children, including those who are unfaithful to Him because of their indifference towards His love for everyone. This is because God expects us to if we really love Him. God wills that we love everyone as much as He does because all people are His children. How can we say we love God if we hate just one child of His? Or how can we love Him if we refuse to do what our heavenly Father wants of us?

St. John tells us: “Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.” God does not live in any person who hates his brother and sister or is indifferent to their needs and interests. “For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister” (1 Jn 4:7-19). What matters isn’t that we try to make God love us, since God already loves us despite who we are or how we live, but God does desire that we remain in His love so that we can make our home with Him. We can continue in God’s love only by keeping His commandments just as Jesus kept them (Jn 14:23-24; 15:9-10). This is something that we must do.

Keeping God’s commandments requires works done in charity and grace in accord with Christ’s teachings and by following his example (Jn 15:12). These works are necessary for our increase in sanctification to be just in God’s sight. Jesus requires that we bear the good fruit of our works (supernatural merit) prepared for us by God if we are to be his disciples, now that we have received the initial grace of justification and forgiveness by no preceding natural merit of ours. Our increase in sanctification is borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace. (Jn 15:8; Eph 2:8-10). We love because God has first loved us! Having eternal life is being in the state of sanctifying grace, which is having the life of God in us (Jn 5:24). And this life remains in us if we love God by living in fellowship with each other. “Let [us] do good, that [we] be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for [ourselves] a good foundation for the time to come, that [we] may lay hold on eternal life” (1 Tim 6:18-19). Sanctification is the formal cause of our justification. The two greatest commandments are these: To love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind. And to love our neighbour as ourselves. “All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 22:36-40).

PAX

:heaven: