A question about Romans 9

[jcrichton]

Isn’t drawing near to God doing something?

True, God makes the sun rise on both the good and the wicked and sends His rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt 5:45); neither is their partiality in God (Rom 2:11). Yet the righteousness God desires that we must have to please Him can only be obtained by doing what pleases Him. God certainly desires that everyone draw themselves to Him, and this involves doing what is right. Those who practice righteousness are righteous and not merely declared to be righteous while they themselves aren’t (1 Jn 3:7, 10). The blood of Jesus “cleanses” (καθαρίζει) us from our sins, but unless we “walk in the light as he is in the light”, our Lord’s blood won’t personally apply to us. The Greek word for “cleanse” (purify) is (καθαρίζω / katharizó) which means an actual infused cleansing of the soul by God’s sanctifying grace, not a fictional cleansing through the imputation of Christ’s external and alien righteousness to us for having placed our faith in his merits. John is clear. Our salvation is conditional. If we Christian believers don’t have fellowship with one another, the blood of Jesus won’t cleanse us from our sins. Our charity towards each other, expressed by our good works done in grace, sanctify our souls making us just and pleasing to God. It is this sanctifying grace that Christ alone has merited for us by his blood and work on the Cross that makes us righteous (1 Jn 1:7. 9). “Everyone who does what is right has been born of him” (1 Jn 2:29). All who have placed their hope in the resurrection must “purify themselves as he is pure” (1 Jn 3:1-3). St. Paul teaches us that we must ‘cleanse ourselves’ from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1). Action is called for on our part, if we hope to be made holy by drawing near to God and co-operating with the actual graces (i.e., charity, chastity, contrition, patience, fortitude, etc.) He bestows for our increase in sanctification and justification.

We read in Romans 4:3, with respect to Abraham, it was “credited” (ἐλογίσθη) to him as righteousness. The Greek word means that God made a book entry of Abraham’s obedient act of faith. God considered Abraham’s virtue of faith which was a personal aspect of his. God records what there actually is in the being of a person and does not record a phony entry in the book of life. When Abraham obeyed God to sacrifice his son to Him, he believed, according to Jewish tradition, that God would raise his son from the dead, since God had said that He would make an everlasting promise to Isaac and his descendants (Gen 17:19). But Abraham’s faith would have been of no benefit to him unless it were translated into action. His steadfast trust in God (the essence of faith in Judaism) could hold no merit unless he acted in obedience because of his genuine trust. Abraham’s faith was completed by his obedient act of faith. Thus, God said to Abraham: ““By myself I have sworn, says the Lord: Because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore… by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice” (Gen 22:16-18). Surely, Abraham didn’t act because he felt he had no choice in the matter. But he understood that by trustfully obeying God, the Divine promise would be fulfilled. He merited for himself the reward of God’s promise, produced by Him alone, by his salutary act of faith: a genuine trust in God. As children of Abraham, our lively faith isn’t an aspect of Christ who possessed the Beatific Vison of God in his earthly life. ‘Faith is the evidence of what is unseen, confidence in what is hoped for’ (Heb 11:1).

To be continued.

:heaven:

Hi!

Excellent post!

…what I find extremely interesting is that God, again speaking/acting from His Knowledge actually changes the name of Abram (the father is exalted) to Abraham (father of a many nations)… though Grace precedes the event, Abraham must cooperate with Yahweh God in order to possess the Gift: God Knew he would… but Abraham had to freely demonstrate his Obedience and Fellowship to Him.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Moreover, St. Paul concurs: ‘For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous’ (Rom 5:19). We aren’t “made” sinners by having Adam’s guilt imputed to us no more than we are “made” righteous by having Christ’s righteousness imputed to us. We are “made” sinners by our share in Adam’s nature just as we are “made” righteous by our interior change and partaking of our Lord’s divine nature through the grace He has merited for us by his obedience (cf. 2 Pet 1:4). Paul says that we are being changed into the Lord’s likeness from one degree of glory to another by the power of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:18); though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed everyday (2 Cor 4:16). Our justification is progressive, and so Paul exhorts us to “cleanse ourselves from every defilement in body and spirit” (Col 7:1). Christ doesn’t cover us, but rather is in us. His personal indwelling in our souls through the Holy Spirit brings about an internal transformation as we co-operate with his grace (2 Cor 13:5).

For this reason, it is imperative that we don’t receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor 6:1). God is at work “in us”, so we must open ourselves to the power of His grace and allow its power to transform our inner nature (Phil 2:13). God isn’t outside us where He externally makes a declaration about something exterior to ourselves. His declaration affirms what He has completed in our souls by His work and our collaboration with Him. We are His creation, a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5:17), being re-created daily by being “renewed in knowledge after the image of our Creator” (Col 3:10). And all that God creates He declares to be good and is real, like the light of Christ that shines within us and we are called to walk in for His greater glory (Gen 1:4; Matt 5:16). We mustn’t practice our righteousness before men like the scribes and Pharisees, but we are called to let ‘our’ light shine before them. This light emanates from our supernaturally transformed nature and is as genuinely ours as the darkness that lurks in our old nature is and which defiles us. This light shines all the more brightly as our old nature “wastes away” and our new nature is being “renewed” daily after the image of God. This can only be accomplished by first “putting on Christ” and “putting on a new nature” in the likeness of Christ. We do not clothe ourselves in Christ simply by letting him cover us from God’s sight with his external righteousness. Rather, we must have a real share in it (Rom 13:14).

Hence, what Paul is telling the Romans is that there isn’t just a relational change of status, but an objective transformation of nature, from the old Adam or old self to the new Adam or new self. We aren’t just declared righteous, but are actually “made” righteous. God’s declaration applies to an ontological change of nature and a renewed being within us wrought by His grace which Christ has merited for us. “By the obedience of the One, we are ‘made’ righteous.” (KJV). The Greek verb κατεστάθησαν (katestathesan) points to a real and genuine ontological change in our souls. We need the infusion of God’s grace into our souls, without which we can never hope to be transformed and be pleasing to Him. God calls us to draw near to Him so that we allow Him to bring about that inner change in us by His grace for our increase in sanctification and justification.

Just a little more, so please bear with me. I only want to clear up any misunderstanding that I might have of what you mean to say. It’s somewhat vague.
:harp:

Hi!

:clapping::clapping::clapping: :extrahappy::extrahappy::extrahappy:
…ok, ok… some Catholics *do *get Fired up for the Word!

I see exactly what you mean in Jesus’ Teaching about the Vine… ‘Abide in Me so that I may Abide in you!’ (St. John 15:1-10) It is in this symbiosis that we are made into Christ (perfected)–Christ is so precise in what He Demands of us that He warns: ‘without Me you are nothing!’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Finally, God loves both the just and the unjust. Nothing we do can diminish the love God has for us, since God is love. Love is an essential attribute of God. But so is His justice and mercy. In His mercy, God calls us to draw near to Him, since He desires everyone to be saved. But God’s righteousness demands that we reciprocate His love with ours to be saved. We must respond to God’s love by showing Him our love in return. Our love for God must correspond with His love for us. St. Paul tells us: “if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains but have no love, I am nothing” (1 Cor 13:2). In other words, what makes us worthy as human beings is God’s favour to us because of our love for Him. What makes a person better than another person who is equally loved by God is the greater blessing He has bestowed upon him for abiding in His love.

Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (Jn 14:15). It isn’t enough to reap God’s spiritual blessings by simply saying “I love God” or thinking “God loves me”. We can love God only because he has first loved us. His goodness and mercy gives us cause to love Him. By denying our love to God, we offend His goodness and kindness. This is the beauty of God: In His infinite greatness and all sufficiency, He desires that we love Him. God has revealed Himself as a Father to his beloved children. God does not depend on us for His existence, nor can anything we do affect the equilibrium of His essence, but He still desires that we love Him as He loves us, for God is a personal being. God’s true children, by their fidelity to Him, are born of God and know Him. And they can only know Him by being able to love, since God is love. God’s children must be like their heavenly Father to abide in His love. We should love God and our neighbour because of the love God has for all His children, including those who are unfaithful to Him because of their indifference towards His love for everyone. This is because God expects us to if we really love Him. God wills that we love everyone as much as He does because all people are His children. How can we say we love God if we hate just one child of His? Or how can we love Him if we refuse to do what our heavenly Father wants of us?

St. John tells us: “Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.” God does not live in any person who hates his brother and sister or is indifferent to their needs and interests. “For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister” (1 Jn 4:7-19). What matters isn’t that we try to make God love us, since God already loves us despite who we are or how we live, but God does desire that we remain in His love so that we can make our home with Him. We can continue in God’s love only by keeping His commandments just as Jesus kept them (Jn 14:23-24; 15:9-10). This is something that we must do.

Keeping God’s commandments requires works done in charity and grace in accord with Christ’s teachings and by following his example (Jn 15:12). These works are necessary for our increase in sanctification to be just in God’s sight. Jesus requires that we bear the good fruit of our works (supernatural merit) prepared for us by God if we are to be his disciples, now that we have received the initial grace of justification and forgiveness by no preceding natural merit of ours. Our increase in sanctification is borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace. (Jn 15:8; Eph 2:8-10). We love because God has first loved us! Having eternal life is being in the state of sanctifying grace, which is having the life of God in us (Jn 5:24). And this life remains in us if we love God by living in fellowship with each other. “Let [us] do good, that [we] be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, storing up for [ourselves] a good foundation for the time to come, that [we] may lay hold on eternal life” (1 Tim 6:18-19). Sanctification is the formal cause of our justification. The two greatest commandments are these: To love the Lord our God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind. And to love our neighbour as ourselves. “All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matt 22:36-40).

PAX

:heaven:

Hi!

I have a problem with this understanding (highlighted text); it seems to me a good thought… well meaning and well intended… however, does this not obliterate St. John’s definition of the term: “child of God?”:

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But** as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name**

. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (St. John 1:11-13)
…by claiming sonship on behalf of those who actively reject God, aren’t we, in effect, curtailing their free will by forcing them into a relationship which they reject?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…yeah, you through me for a spin (I read all post of the threads I join)… I wondered why you did not disclose the Faith… I thought… another bashful Catholic…

…then you juiced it up… I recognized a fervor that was past most Catholics…

That’s unfortunate. Jesus compared Eternal life, with a wedding feast. What’s a wedding feast? It’s – a major party! Singing, dancing, celebrating — that’s what Christianity is! It’s a party, and we’re s’posed to invite as many more as we can!

Jesus said, “These things have I told you that My joy may be in you, and your joy may be made full!” John15:11

Do you know any Charismatic Catholics???

…then the format demonstrated not quite Catholic… but I was glad to see you engaging the Word with so high fervor!

…you’re the first person that has openly placed it in those terms… but, in my estimation as well, it is true… it’s the false teaching that God is in error and/or that man can disobey God and yet compel Him to grant him Salvation regardless of his determination to remain unrighteous and to reject God’s Authority.

There are three separate and distinct doctrines under the heading of “OSAS”:

1. Antinomianism (Gnosticism, sinning corrupt FLESH but saved SPIRIT)
2. Eternal Security (unlimited atonement, but too changed or God prevents apostasy)
3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (Reformed Theology) God chooses both elect, and wicked

I posted earlier that RT bases on four Founding Passages (Eph1:4-5, Eph1:11, Rom8:29-35, and Rom9:11-21). And about fifty-five Secondary Passages. If we are going to talk to them, we have to know what verses they use, and what the verses ACTUALLY say.

…the problem is that man tends to elevate things… (ego trips trip our attempt to clarify things); in a way they are correct… but only slightly…

You know, it is difficult for anyone (including you and me), to be objective. It’s easy to embrace a certain understanding, and cling to it even in the face of opposing Scripture.

We must be diligent to be open to Scripture – ANYONE who allows us to see things through their eyes (Protestant, Catholic, even views like Agnostic or Atheist), gives us a privilege. We can be too close to see the forest because of all the annoying trees; by looking with OTHER eyes we can see more than we did, and we also learn how they think (and how to talk to them).

BTW, there is no such thing as “Atheist” – if anyone’s interested, there are five questions that will literally leave them saying, “Uhhhmmmmm…”

Jesus tells us that no one can come to Him unless the Father sends them…

Excellent! That’s one of the SECONDARIES! May we discuss John6:44?

Jesus was equating Himself with God — “I came down out of Heaven”. Infuriating the Pharisees. “Is this not Jesus whose father and mother we know? How does He say ‘I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’?!”

In other words, “who does He think He IS?!”

Calvinists perceive:

Jews: “Who does He think He IS?!?!”
Jesus: “Don’t grumble; those who come to Me are PREDESTINED by God.”
Huh???
That’s supposed to ANSWER the Jews’ complaint? Does not – it’s nonsense! What was really happening, was:

Jews: “Who does He think He IS?!?!”
Jesus: “Don’t grumble; those who come to Me are authorized by God, I am authorized by God THAT’S who I am!”

In no way can we make an “I-AM-AUTHORIZED” statement, into a “YOU-ARE-PREDESTINED” doctrine. This also fits John6:37, 39, and 65. Four of the “Fifty-Five Secondaries”.

I’ve said before and I’ll say again, read the CONTEXT. John6 ends with Peter protesting his loyalty (“We know You’re the Messiah, of course we won’t leave!”). And Jesus then holds up Judas — why?

Many of the disciples were leaving. Jesus turned to the twelve, and said: “YOU aren’t going to leave too, ARE you!”
Peter (paraphrased): “Of course not; we know You’re the Messiah.”
Jesus: “Did I not Myself choose all twelve of you, and one of you is a devil?”

Jesus chose ALL TWELVE (the same!) to be the Disciples, and ordained that they bear fruit that remains (John15:16); all twelve, and Judas is PROOF that leaving is possible!

There’s no other reason Jesus held up Judas in verse 70, except to SHOW “leaving-is-possible”. (See Acts20:28-30, disciples CAN be deceived away!)

 

[Gadgeteer]

where they go wrong is by ignoring the fact that God wants all to be Saved so it is inherently given to man to seek God…

It is given, by God, to all men, to be able to seek Him. What else could Acts17:26-31 mean?

RE “God wants all to be saved” – yes, He does; RT’s claim it’s not REALLY “all”, but only “some of all TYPES”. No, the “all” in 1Tim2:1-4 includes kings and ALL authority, clearly exceeding who WILL be saved. It has to mean “everyone”.

See 1Tim4:10, 1Jn2:2 (in what Universe can “holos kosmos” not mean the entire world?) — and many others. Have they not read Ezk18:23, and 31-32???

this of course does not mean that all men will want to seek God (St. John 3:14-21); still, God does not work on the heart of unbelievers… that would negate free-will! God can only work on man once he willingly submits to God’s Fellowship.

Well, He does work on them – drawing all of them to the door, but you’re 100% right each has to make his/her OWN DECISION. Excellent citation — those WHO pursue righteousness come to (Jesus) the Light, but those who choose sin turn to the darkness.

…it seems we were right on the same target… but an expression (that usually follows a conviction narrative liken to the Mormons’ bait and switch tactics seem to have popped up)… you were not inadequate, just curt… so I wanted to give you the opportunity to expand–both for my benefit and that of the thread.

Mormons are fun to talk to; so are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I finally got the discussion with JW’s right, so that they do not run away, all they can do is stand there and say: “…uhhhh…”

…and that is the beginning of personal agreement between Christians; engaging the Word of God with the same end… building the Body of Christ!

Amen. Until we mature, to the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ.

(I read that somewhere!)

 

[Gadgeteer]

I must confess… though we don’t know each other… we seem to be on the same side of the one coin!

I think by now you pretty well know me (and I know you). I try to be transparent.

You’ve expressed my thoughts exactly… how can a reasonable person not understand such passages?..

Because — “Reformed Theology” is a sophisticated structure. It has clean and bright walls, shiny windows, rich wood trim and plush carpeting. Only when we engage every verse with which they have built that structure, does it begin to become clear that all the verses (every one of them) is mis-understood. Take 1Cor2:14 — we pulled that verse out (just like pulling a brick out of Reformed Theology’s structure), and found it does not fit. Is there anyone who denies that verse 12 solidly and undeniably puts salvation BEFORE getting the “things”? So now there is a HOLE in their structure. No problem, the rest of the structure is sound.

Is it? Let’s look at the second (two holes). And the third (three holes). Fifty-five verses later the structure is GONE. All that’s left are the four founding passages – and one by one they can be proven (by Scripture, not by opinion!) not to promote “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”. Only when a (former!) RT is left with bare dirt, will they frown and say, “Uhhhmmmm…”

but then I begin to relax and I realize that it is not reason that blinds people but the ole NY NY song… “…and I did it, my way!”

It absolutely is a “superior position”. They really think, “I used to believe in free will; but then I (matured, was led by the Spirit, studied Scripture, etcetera)”. It is a position on a hill, standing above and looking down.

…we hafta get them to take a second look at that hill!!!

Man wants to have the cake and eat too…

Another motivation for OSAS, is comfort. No we do not earn salvation; but it very much takes WORK.

Jesus: “Do not work for food that perishes, but WORK for food that endures to eternal life.”
Jews: "What must we do to work the work of God?"
Jesus: “This is the work of God, that you believe in He whom God sent!” Jn6:27-29

…it’s much more pleasant to sit back and coast along knowing that GOD does all our diligence FOR us; after all salvation is all HIS work, isn’t it?

Man wants to claim regeneration, justification, forgiveness and salvation while holding on to the old self–everything is on God: God must Save man because He must!

…of course Jesus spoke much on this issue… ‘…why do you call me Lord, and not do what I say?’ ‘…not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter Heaven, but he that does the Will of my Father…’ ‘because wide is the gate and broad is the is the way that leads to destruction…’

Exactly!

Clearly, we must do it Christ’s Way!

Do you know anything about “Pre-Trib Rapture”? The majority of those who hold “OSAS”, are also Pre-Trib. Yes there will be a rapture — that is, when Jesus returns we will “harpazo” be caught up and “apantesis” meet Jesus in the air; but I can give you chapter and verse where we will be IN most of the Tribulation.

Imagine those who are comfortable and complacent, not diligent about their faith — counting on a soft easy escape from the hard times! What will happen when they realize the Tribulation is well underway, and they’re still here???

 

[Gadgeteer]

Isn’t drawing near to God doing something?

Hi, Good Fella!

Yes! It is! See if you and I agree on something (betting we do) – how much of our salvation did Jesus pay for on the Cross? (All of it, right?) All religions (Mormons JW’s, Budhism, Judaism, Islam, every one!) are based on men doing good deeds to earn God’s favor (or eternity, or nirvana, or whatever). Salvation is a GIFT — righteousness is a GIFT. Any gift must be received; while it may be wise to receive a good gift, the conscious action in receiving that gift changes nothing OF the gift. Yes it is “doing something” (to receive the gift), but our “doing something” does not become part OF the gift.

Do we agree?

True, God makes the sun rise on both the good and the wicked and sends His rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt 5:45); neither is there partiality in God (Rom 2:11).

I’d like to expand on that idea of “partiality” – Peter says (Acts10:34-35) that those WHO revere God and pursue righteousness, God welcomes. The opposite of that (God choosing those who do NOT yet pursue Him or righteousness), is partiality that God is NOT.

That is yet another rock-solid refutation of Reformed Theology.

Yet the righteousness God desires that we must have to please Him can only be obtained by doing what pleases Him.

I think it’s deeper than that; God “clothes us in His righteousness”, Isaiah61:10. Yes we have to “do what pleases Him”, but first we are filled WITH Jesus and the Spirit, and then (because He changes our hearts) we pursue Him and do good deeds.

What are your thoughts on Paul’s words in 1Cor6:11? We were washed, justified (declared righteous), and sanctified (made righteous)? It doesn’t really matter if you and I differ on righteousness being a state now, or a lifelong goal — I bet you and I agree it’s part of the whole “you-must-abide-in-Jesus” reality.

God certainly desires that everyone draw themselves to Him, and this involves doing what is right. Those who practice righteousness are righteous and not merely declared to be righteous while they themselves aren’t (1 Jn 3:7, 10). The blood of Jesus “cleanses” (καθαρίζει) us from our sins, but unless we “walk in the light as he is in the light”, our Lord’s blood won’t personally apply to us. The Greek word for “cleanse” (purify) is (καθαρίζω / katharizó) which means an actual infused cleansing of the soul by God’s sanctifying grace, not a fictional cleansing through the imputation of Christ’s external and alien righteousness to us for having placed our faith in his merits. John is clear.

What I want to teach most, is that salvation is not a belief. In Catholicism, and in Protestantism, and in Greek Orthodox and all others who claim to follow Jesus, it is very common to hear: “I am saved, because I believe ____”

No, it’s not a belief; it is a real union between two people. 1Jn5 “he who has Jesus has eternal life”. Jesus in Jn17:3, “eternal life is KNOWING YOU (Father), and me (Jesus)!”

 

[Gadgeteer]

God certainly desires that everyone draw themselves to Him, and this involves doing what is right. Those who practice righteousness are righteous and not merely declared to be righteous while they themselves aren’t (1 Jn 3:7, 10).

Amen!

The blood of Jesus “cleanses” (καθαρίζει) us from our sins, but unless we “walk in the light as he is in the light”, our Lord’s blood won’t personally apply to us. The Greek word for “cleanse” (purify) is (καθαρίζω / katharizó) which means an actual infused cleansing of the soul by God’s sanctifying grace, not a fictional cleansing through the imputation of Christ’s external and alien righteousness to us for having placed our faith in his merits. John is clear. Our salvation is conditional. If we Christian believers don’t have fellowship with one another, the blood of Jesus won’t cleanse us from our sins. Our charity towards each other, expressed by our good works done in grace, sanctify our souls making us just and pleasing to God. It is this sanctifying grace that Christ alone has merited for us by his blood and work on the Cross that makes us righteous (1 Jn 1:7. 9). “Everyone who does what is right has been born of him” (1 Jn 2:29). All who have placed their hope in the resurrection must “purify themselves as he is pure” (1 Jn 3:1-3). St. Paul teaches us that we must ‘cleanse ourselves’ from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God (2 Cor. 7:1).

I would like to present my understanding; and what I know of Catholicism is not complete – so I ask for patience and insight.

Everything you say is true – we ARE to “cleanse ourselves” — see 2Tim2:21, and Rev22:14. Those who hold to “religions” (Mormons, JW’s, Islam, Budhism, Shinto, etcetera) use their own strength to “turn themselves to righteousness”. We (Christians!) turn to God that His real presence indwells us and THAT turns us to righteousness – His righteousness indwells us and works through us. So in saying “we cleanse ourselves”, that is the same as saying “we draw near to God” (that Jesus and the Spirit are tangibly in union with us, bringing regeneration and cleansing).

So — my understanding is that “we are sanctified NOW”, because it is a gift that Jesus completed and we received; but we are also BEING sanctified because it is a constant walk in which (in HIM) we must abide.

Do we agree?

Action is called for on our part, if we hope to be made holy by drawing near to God and co-operating with the actual graces (i.e., charity, chastity, contrition, patience, fortitude, etc.) He bestows for our increase in sanctification and justification.

It’s a question of viewpoint; do we engage in things to BECOME “holy” and “saved” (salvation being Jesus-on-the-Cross, plus something)?

Or do we engage in these graces because we ARE saved and ARE holy?

Which is cause, and which is effect?

We read in Romans 4:3, with respect to Abraham, it was “credited” (ἐλογίσθη) to him as righteousness.

Yes. Nicely cited.

The Greek word means that God made a book entry of Abraham’s obedient act of faith. God considered Abraham’s virtue of faith which was a personal aspect of his. God records what there actually is in the being of a person and does not record a phony entry in the book of life. When Abraham obeyed God to sacrifice his son to Him, he believed, according to Jewish tradition, that God would raise his son from the dead, since God had said that He would make an everlasting promise to Isaac and his descendants (Gen 17:19). But Abraham’s faith would have been of no benefit to him unless it were translated into action.

That’s right.

His steadfast trust in God (the essence of faith in Judaism) could hold no merit unless he acted in obedience because of his genuine trust. Abraham’s faith was completed by his obedient act of faith. Thus, God said to Abraham: ““By myself I have sworn, says the Lord: Because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will indeed bless you, and I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore… by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth gain blessing for themselves, because you have obeyed my voice” (Gen 22:16-18). Surely, Abraham didn’t act because he felt he had no choice in the matter. But he understood that by trustfully obeying God, the Divine promise would be fulfilled. He merited for himself the reward of God’s promise, produced by Him alone, by his salutary act of faith: a genuine trust in God. As children of Abraham, our lively faith isn’t an aspect of Christ who possessed the Beatific Vison of God in his earthly life. ‘Faith is the evidence of what is unseen, confidence in what is hoped for’ (Heb 11:1).

Excellent citations and comments. Continue in Heb11 — without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who COMES to God must believe God IS (must choose to come BY faith), and that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him…

 

[jcrichton]

That’s unfortunate. Jesus compared Eternal life, with a wedding feast. What’s a wedding feast? It’s – a major party! Singing, dancing, celebrating — that’s what Christianity is! It’s a party, and we’re s’posed to invite as many more as we can!

Jesus said, “These things have I told you that My joy may be in you, and your joy may be made full!” John15:11

Do you know any Charismatic Catholics???

Hi!

…don’t get me wrong… I’m speaking about fervor of sharing Scriptures and our Faith… I think that too many are caught up in that “pious” thing (don’t want to stand for the Faith cause don’t want to hurt the sensitivities of others…) and the Protestant thing (they keep talking about sola Scriptura and sola Fide… look how far they’ve taken that: ‘everyone of them is their own pope!’); so the Church is still hurting from the splinterings’ backlashes… one of these “do not interpret the Scriptures outside of the Church” which may have been translated into ‘don’t read the Bible!’

…then there’s the onslaught of non-Catholics specifically targeting Catholics with their proselytizing… it could make one quite wary of sharing the Faith.

You know, it is difficult for anyone

(including you and me), to be objective. It’s easy to embrace a certain understanding, and cling to it even in the face of opposing Scripture.

We must be diligent to be open to Scripture – ANYONE who allows us to see things through their eyes (Protestant, Catholic, even views like Agnostic or Atheist), gives us a privilege. We can be too close to see the forest because of all the annoying trees; by looking with OTHER eyes we can see more than we did, and we also learn how they think (and how to talk to them).
It is also easy to get carried away with half truths… that is why the totality of Revelation is necessary to be able to embrace God’s Word.

Though I do not subscribe to the “view” from the other’s understanding, I do respect each person’s convictions… I never challenge anyone’s beliefs; I simply offer my understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to do His Job–Conviction of heart and mind, is beyond me Call.

Excellent! That’s one of the SECONDARIES!

May we discuss John6:44?

Jesus was equating Himself with God — “I came down out of Heaven”. Infuriating the Pharisees. “Is this not Jesus whose father and mother we know? How does He say ‘I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’?!”

In other words, “who does He think He IS?!”

Calvinists perceive:

Jews: “Who does He think He IS?!?!”
Jesus: “Don’t grumble; those who come to Me are PREDESTINED by God.”
Huh???
That’s supposed to ANSWER the Jews’ complaint? Does not – it’s nonsense! What was really happening, was:

Jews: “Who does He think He IS?!?!”
Jesus: “Don’t grumble; those who come to Me are authorized by God, I am authorized by God THAT’S who I am!”

In no way can we make an “I-AM-AUTHORIZED” statement, into a “YOU-ARE-PREDESTINED” doctrine. This also fits John6:37, 39, and 65. Four of the “Fifty-Five Secondaries”.
It is because their understanding is fixated on their tenets of faith… a person makes a statement then searches Scriptures to authenticate the statement–well, whatever is found will be molded to the definition that has been preconceived.

…sort of reading into Scriptures what jumps into the mind: ‘Jesus wrote “xyz” on the ground because…’

I’ve said before and I’ll say again, read the CONTEXT. John6 ends with Peter protesting his loyalty (“We know You’re the Messiah, of course we won’t leave!”). And Jesus then holds up Judas — why?

Many of the disciples were leaving. Jesus turned to the twelve, and said: “YOU aren’t going to leave too, ARE you!”
Peter (paraphrased): “Of course not; we know You’re the Messiah.”
Jesus: "Did I not Myself choose all twelve

of you, and one of you is a devil?"

Jesus chose ALL TWELVE (the same!) to be the Disciples, and ordained that they bear fruit that remains (John15:16); all twelve, and Judas is PROOF that leaving is possible!
I concur with you that there are several Scriptural passages that do speak on the loss of Salvation (St. John 15:1-10 is one of my most favorite because of that); the problem is not that it is not clearly stated in Scriptures but that man can spin “interpretation” into ‘it’s what the Word is saying;’ much like the Mormons walk in speaking about the Bible and end up putting the Bible aside for the preeminence of their book. :ehh: :hypno::hypno::hypno:

I’m sure many have been sucked in!

There’s no other reason Jesus held up Judas in verse 70, except to SHOW “leaving-is-possible”. (See Acts20:28-30, disciples CAN be deceived away!)

…I understand what you are saying… but I think it is also speaking to the “self-assuredness” that was being demonstrated… ‘these, may… but not me, I would follow you to the death!’ and the choir’s 'yeah, man, to the death! …let me at 'em, let me at ‘em’

…and Jesus, Knowing how fragile the human condition is–‘did I not choose the Twelve of you?..’

…but Judas is an entire post (or a few) all to his own!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Further, there is something even more important we must do if we hope to be reckoned as righteous before God and thereby saved; that is acknowledge and confess our sins to God “with a broken spirit and contrite heart”. God takes no pleasure in any personal sacrifice of ours unless it is offered in a repentant faith (Ps 51:16-17). What pleases God is that we humbly bow down before Him and entrust ourselves to His mercy and love.

The question really between us, is — “what is salvation”? At its innermost core, most foundational level? We read Matt25, where Jesus separates the sheep, from the goats. What’s the difference? What do the sheep have, that the goats do not?

God thoroughly blots out our personal transgressions and cleanses us from all our iniquities on condition that we undergo a genuine change of heart with the help of His grace.

Completely and absolutely — RIGHT. “Repentance” implies a one-eighty-degree CHANGE. We know because of verses like Heb10:26-29 that if we CONTINUE sinning willfully Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers us, but we expect judgement and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries.

So — doing the same sin over and over, is “continuing”. Can we repent and God forgives us, then repent and God forgives us, then repent and God forgives us? At what point must we admit if we keep doing the sin, we’re not really repenting???

Because of our interior disposition, wrought by the Holy Spirit in our collaboration with Him, our sins are completely wiped out and their stains removed from our souls. Our sins aren’t merely covered up and concealed from God’s sight. By collaborating with the Holy Spirit, we are calling upon God to create a clean heart and putting a new spirit within us (Ps 51:10).

How do we do that? Ezk18:31 says “make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit”. What is the recipe to pull that off?

There is no need for God to just cover our sins with Christ’s exterior and alien righteousness. God is so powerful that He can bring about a genuine transformation in ourselves with His infused grace. We read in Acts 3:19: Repent, therefore, and turn again for the blotting out of your sins.’ The “blotting out” (ἐξαλειφθῆναι) literally means an actual wiping away of sin and the removal of its stain on the soul. And this requires a sincere act of faith on our part, that we “turn again” (ἐπιστρέψατε) from our sins. Justification is an ongoing process, not a one-time event that occurs when we are baptized. This is why we Catholics have the sacrament of Reconciliation. In any event, when we humbly confess our sins with a contrite heart and with firm amendment never to sin again, God’s sanctifying grace cleanses and purges the soul of all sin, as our own garments are thereby “washed whiter than snow” (Ps 51:7-9).

I bet you and I agree, that every sin we commit is the consequence of a HEART that turned AWAY from God? Do we agree that we should not focus on “doing or not-doing sins”, but rather in turning to God so diligently that sins loose their LURE to us?

We aren’t “a dunghill covered in snow” as Martin Luther crudely put it. Christ’s righteousness is not imputed to us. Rather, the Holy Spirit infuses His grace into our souls which transforms our inner person.

It is His sanctifying work that justifies us when we open ourselves to His healing grace. We who hunger for righteousness and draw towards God to be filled with it interiorly shall be satisfied (Matt 5:6; Lk 6:21). This inner change of heart is initiated by the prompting of the Holy Spirit who then fulfills what we desire Him to wrought in our souls. It is by this inner disposition of ours to want to be righteous as our Lord is righteous through the operation of God’s sufficient grace that we ourselves become righteous and pleasing to God by doing what He wills with the help of his co-operative efficacious grace. (1 Jn 3:7). Jesus himself says that our righteousness (not his) must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees. In other words, the righteousness that justifies us before God must be our very own, embedded in our interior disposition as opposed to the exterior righteousness of those whom Jesus called hypocrites because they failed to observe the spirit of the law (Matt 5:20). Our Lord does warn us of practicing righteousness before men. (Matt 6:1). This kind of practice merely involves observing the letter of the law which can cast the wrong impression on men. Only God can read the human heart.

And He does. Look at yet another of the “Fifty-Five Secondaries” – Jeremiah 17:9. The heart is too wicked and corrupt (so RT’s perceive) to ever turn to God. But what does verse 10 say? In spite of our wickedness, God tests our hearts and weighs our thoughts and gives to each of us according to our ways, according to the results of our deeds.

Oh yes in SPITE of “wicked deceitful hearts”, we can turn to God!!!

The practice of righteousness that our Lord expects from us must proceed from an interior disposition brought about by a transformation of the inner-self with the help of divine grace. By grace we are saved. It is the interior disposition that defiles a person (Matt 15:18; Mk 7:15); sin originates from the heart.

You know, I’m really thinking we are MUCH more in agreement, than not.

 

[jcrichton]

It is given, by God, to all men, to be able to seek Him. What else could Acts17:26-31 mean?

RE “God wants all to be saved” – yes, He does; RT’s claim it’s not REALLY “all”, but only “some of all TYPES”. No, the “all” in 1Tim2:1-4 includes kings and ALL authority, clearly exceeding who WILL be saved. It has to mean “everyone”.

See 1Tim4:10, 1Jn2:2 (in what Universe can “holos kosmos” not mean the entire world?) — and many others. Have they not read Ezk18:23, and 31-32???

Hi!

…what I find confusing is how a person becomes so blind… yes, we can see on tv that certain pets are trained to do astounding (because of their biological distinction from humans) tricks… and that some have even learned to mimic (after much much prodding I suspect) “I love you” or “mama;” still, I doubt they understand what is really transpiring… so it seems to me when people read Scriptures… they hear their voices (or inner voices as the case may be), they understand the general meaning of the text… then they go ahead and determine that it means something totally different.

I don’t know Greek but if “holos kosmos” means the entire world (though I know kosmos from cosmos–so I kind of blew this example), then it must be that Scriptures mean: the entire world!

…what can be more simple:

16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

(St. John 3:16)

Well, He does work on them – drawing all of them to the door

, but you’re 100% right each has to make his/her OWN DECISION. Excellent citation — those WHO pursue righteousness come to (Jesus) the Light, but those who choose sin turn to the darkness.
…here I think that we are hitting on vocabulary… to me God’s Call (generic) is not God’s working on but simple the anthropological need of man to seek his Creator… much like the story of Cain and Abel… there’s no statue/tenet about Worship and Sacrificing… but they seem compelled to do so… then the real story begins…

Mormons are fun to talk to; so are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I finally got the discussion with JW’s right

, so that they do not run away, all they can do is stand there and say: “…uhhhh…”
…not my experience… it seems I am completely in the dark, don’t know about God, not humble enough to be taught and when I’m ready to be taught about God, I can give them a call (some of the sessions going on for hours, days, and switch hitters).

Amen. Until we mature, to the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ.

(I read that somewhere!)

Amen!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think by now you pretty well know me (and I know you). I try to be transparent.

Because — “Reformed Theology” is a sophisticated structure. It has clean and bright walls, shiny windows, rich wood trim and plush carpeting. Only when we engage every verse with which they have built that structure, does it begin to become clear that all the verses (every one of them) is mis-understood. Take 1Cor2:14 — we pulled that verse out (just like pulling a brick out of Reformed Theology’s structure), and found it does not fit. Is there anyone who denies that verse 12 solidly and undeniably puts salvation BEFORE getting the “things”? So now there is a HOLE in their structure. No problem, the rest of the structure is sound.

Is it? Let’s look at the second (two holes). And the third (three holes). Fifty-five verses later the structure is GONE. All that’s left are the four founding passages – and one by one they can be proven (by Scripture, not by opinion!) not to promote “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”. Only when a (former!) RT is left with bare dirt, will they frown and say, “Uhhhmmmm…”

It absolutely is a “superior position”. They really think, “I used to believe in free will; but then I (matured, was led by the Spirit, studied Scripture, etcetera)”. It is a position on a hill, standing above and looking down.

Hi!

This is another thing I don’t fully get… it is not that they are not educated people… it is not that they are not familiar with Scriptures… I would even venture to say that it is not that they do not Love God (the Holy Trinity)…

…it seems to me that much of it is due to the “self;” …I have often herd the expression of “mature in the faith;” at times I’ve been called “not mature” since I lack the insight, understanding, convictions or “gift” of the Spirit (ie: speaking in language…); it seems that they read Scriptures and they get to know about Jesus, even get to believe in Jesus but they don’t Believe Jesus:

25 But Jesus called them to him, and said: You know that the princes of the Gentiles lord it over them; and they that are the greater, exercise power upon them. 26 It shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be the greater among you, let him be your minister: 27 And he that will be first among you, shall be your servant. 28 Even as the Son of man is not come to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a redemption for many.

(St. Matthew 20:25-28)
…it is not about “self!” It is about serving Christ–the members of the Body do not receive Gifts/abilities to lord them over others, not even over the unbelievers!

…and St. Paul Teaches what Jesus Taught:

14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. 17 All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

(Colossians 3:14-17)

…we hafta get them to take a second look at that hill!!!

Another motivation for OSAS, is comfort

. No we do not earn salvation; but it very much takes WORK.

Jesus: “Do not work for food that perishes, but WORK for food that endures to eternal life.”
Jews: "What must we do to work the work of God?"
Jesus: “This is the work of God, that you believe in He whom God sent!” Jn6:27-29

…it’s much more pleasant to sit back and coast along knowing that GOD does all our diligence FOR us; after all salvation is all HIS work, isn’t it?
Exactly!
…this is so difficult to not get… ‘the workers are few… pray to the Lord for more workers…’ (paraphrased)

…then there are the various parables about the workers and the “good” servants… and St. Paul’s “working out his Salvation,” and “running the race!”

Do you know anything about “Pre-Trib Rapture”? The majority of those who hold “OSAS”, are also Pre-Trib. Yes there will be a rapture — that is, when Jesus returns we will “harpazo” be caught up and “apantesis” meet Jesus in the air; but I can give you chapter and verse where we will be IN most of the Tribulation.

Imagine those who are comfortable and complacent, not diligent about their faith — counting on a soft easy escape from the hard times!

What will happen when they realize the Tribulation is well underway, and they’re still here???

I saw “The Rapture.” …not much more then the generic secret codes hidden in Apocalypse (Revelation)… yet, what did Jesus say to the Disciples about it? Worry, get the decoder book, run for your lives?

Jesus stated that these things would happen… that there would be turmoil… that man would grow cold (hateful) and fail to even love himself… that in attention to the elect (John 1:10-13) not everything will unfold all at once… but His most important Concern was:

Watch ye, therefore, praying at all times, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are to come, and to stand before the Son of man.

(St. Luke 21:36)
…how can one Stand for Christ without engaging Faith and working out his/her Salvation?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Timothy524]

Jcrichton:

How would you suggest that I find a middle ground between over-planning and under-planning? I would say in the past that I was an over-planner. Currently, I feel like an under-planner. Honestly, my life has slowed down a lot. I do not have much going on in comparison to my past. My life was centered around making plans with everyone else. Making plans with friends. Making plans with my exgirlfriend. Making plans to do my homework in college was in the mix too.

I always wanted to do things with others. I never wanted to do anything on my own or by myself. I didn’t like doing things alone. I still don’t like doing things alone. I feel like I am on a very lonely road right now. I feel like I have to plan things for myself, and that, to be honest, is no fun. It’s like my plans revolve around surviving and not living. I remember when I made plans that involved living. This is a new territory for me. Things go day to day now rather than planning things for the distant future. It was fun when I had distant future plans. It was something to look forward to.

Good fella:

Paul uses Pharaoh as a fine example of how human pride can lead a person down the path of self-destruction and the defeat of his own purpose.

It seems like I am on a path of self-destruction and the defeat of my own purpose. My body and mind seem to be in self-destruct mode. My purpose seems to be absent. I am wrestling with if I am prideful. I don’t like the state I find myself in. What is the best remedy for pride?

Those who will not see and hear, shall not see and hear.

How do you see and hear?

If God leaves others, like Pharaoh, in their sins by withholding His grace from them, it’s because of their own stubbornness of heart and refusal to co-operate with His grace.

How do you co-operate with His grace?

It is used only to stress that we are not to question God why He confers his graces and favours on some and not on others, since we are all no better than each other in our sinfulness.

How do you stay in this place that we are no better than each other?

As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.
Romans 9, 13

Esau was rejected as God’s choice because he rejected his own birth right for a morsel of food. He did not act as a true servant of Israel in the spirit, but as carnal Israel. Esau brought God’s wrath down upon himself by his own volition. God did not predetermine Esau’s act so that Jacob should be elected instead. It was Esau himself who tarnished his relationship with God. The word ‘hate’ (μισέω) signifies that there was a broken relationship between God and Esau for what the latter chose to do so dishonourably. His physical appetite was more important to him than God. It wasn’t so much that God detested Esau for no just reason at all or even detested him. Esau simply lost God’s favour by his own carnal act. Thus, as an object of wrath, Esau became pottery for common use rather than a noble purpose. God said to Moses: "“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” This doesn’t mean that God has reserved the right for himself to act arbitrarily and without impartiality. We are all in need of God’s mercy; nor is God’s mercy something we deserve. The Divine mercy is basically withheld punishment for our sins. Unless we sincerely repent of our sins and implore God’s mercy and forgiveness, He will punish us as our deeds deserve (Jer. 21:14). God is patient with us in His kindness because He desires that we be saved. He doesn’t wait all this time for a sinner’s conversion because He wants to punish them in due time, but rather the opposite. God’s kindness and patience provide an opportunity for us to repent and be saved. His kindness is meant to lead us to repentance and salvation (Rom 2:4; 2 Pet 3:15). So we should never complain as Esau did for being punished for our sins (Lam 3:39).

I have a younger brother. Sometimes I feel like I am Esau and my brother is Jacob. Initially I was going to ask how I could reverse this, but instead I was wondering if you could give me advice on how to accept God’s role for me and how I can accept his desire for me.

God’s kindness and patience provide an opportunity for us to repent and be saved. His kindness is meant to lead us to repentance and salvation (Rom 2:4; 2 Pet 3:15). So we should never complain as Esau did for being punished for our sins (Lam 3:39).

Rather than complaining, how can one rejoice over just punishment from God for his or her sins? Does God even punish people? Or do we just punish ourselves?

Noel Fitz:

If I were going through a rough patch I do not think your post would help me.

Why do you think his post would not help me?

Good Fella:

I simply wished to clear up any misunderstandings he might have of the Scriptures to help remove nagging doubts that seem to be discouraging him; dissipate the clouds, so to speak, that the sunlight may eventually touch him.

Thank you Good Fella. Your posts were helpful.

 

[Timothy524]

Jcrichton:

…it often confounds people to read in Scriptures that God loved Jacob but hated Esau… they limit themselves to that particular rendering/depiction of God’s relationship with the twins… they do not connect God’s Omniscience and Omnipresence to Scriptures… ‘He Knew me before I was conceived (formed) in my mother’s womb…’ It is from this Knowledge that God Acts!

Jcrichton could you explain how you believe people “limit themselves” to the particular case mentioned for my own benefit in the sense that I may be limiting myself?

…but in order to be completely assured that what is posted will be fully useful to others one must know the mind of others (an impossibility for man); as you’ve stated, we are called to Build the Body of Christ… when one member hurts/is sad/is going through turmoil… the rest of the Body suffers along…

I never feel understood no matter how much I try to explain myself. When I am at peace I am reminded that no one but God alone can completely understand me which is enough. Do you have any advice on how to get over the desire to be understood?

**Good Fella: **

Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls" (Matt 11:29).

In your opinion what is the best way to learn from Jesus Good Fella? How do you take his yoke upon you Good Fella?

Jcrichton:

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies, says the Lord Yahweh: therefore turn yourselves, and live. (Ezekiel 18:31-32)

Thank you for this beautiful passage.

Gadgeteer:

You absolutely were a “vessel of wrath” – now, please read Eph2:3. We ALL were “children of wrath (orge-Hell), the same as the rest”. Here is the deepest secret of Christianity — God expects you to do NOTHING to make yourself righteous, you have to do NOTHING to make Him love you, you cannot do anything to please Him — except to realize that He LOVES you (unconditionally), that HE is our cleansing and our righteousness and all our worth. (Isaiah 61:10).

Sometimes I get into this flawed way of thinking, once a “vessel of wrath” always a “vessel of wrath”. Like, I made bad choices in the being, now I am on the road to perdition. Can anyone give me some advice on how to change this thought pattern?

Also It’s hard for me to swallow that there is nothing “I can do” to make myself righteous when “I can” in fact “sin” and turn my back to God which is unrighteous. If there is nothing “I can do”, then I feel stuck where I am. It goes back to my flawed way of thinking, the choices that led me to where I am at is permanent. Once and for always a sinner. Can anyone provide advice and scripture texts on how to dismantle my state of thought?

Thank you Gadgeteer for the Jeremiah 29:11-13 reference.

Ok so here is a problem that have been struggling with lately. When I read stuff from the Old Testament, I read it as a story being spoken to a prophet and not God speaking to me. Therefore, when I read the following passage from the book of Jeremiah:

11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

I read it as “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope…”

You = Jeremiah

I also have this struggle with the letters of Paul. I do not believe they apply to me, but rather instead to the people that he wrote to in particular.

The gospels are a different story. I believe Jesus is speaking to each one of us. The psalms are interesting too. I enjoy saying the divine office, because as someone once said “those are words I would never say on my own”, but we can say them out loud in song/prayer and it as if they change us and that we begin to speak a truth that is written deep down in each one of us. Does that make any sense?

Please read Matt7:2-27; if you or I build our “self worth” and “identity” on Jesus the ROCK, we do not need validation or approval from flawed Humans.

In your opinion, what is the best way to enter onto this path and remain on it?

That’s the only way to win over sin; don’t fight it (you will lose)

Can you give examples of everyday situations/people that try to fight it and lose so I have a clearer understanding?

To be continued…

 

[jcrichton]

Jcrichton:

How would you suggest that I find a middle ground between over-planning and under-planning? I would say in the past that I was an over-planner. Currently, I feel like an under-planner. Honestly, my life has slowed down a lot. I do not have much going on in comparison to my past. My life was centered around making plans with everyone else. Making plans with friends. Making plans with my exgirlfriend. Making plans to do my homework in college was in the mix too.

I always wanted to do things with others. I never wanted to do anything on my own or by myself. I didn’t like doing things alone. I still don’t like doing things alone. I feel like I am on a very lonely road right now. I feel like I have to plan things for myself, and that, to be honest, is no fun. It’s like my plans revolve around surviving and not living. I remember when I made plans that involved living. This is a new territory for me. Things go day to day now rather than planning things for the distant future. It was fun when I had distant future plans. It was something to look forward to.

Hi, Timothy!

I think that you have to zero in on those issues that makes planning possible…

You’ve identified several issues: a) over planning and under planning, b) it sucks to do things on your own, c) you enjoyed/loved planning things with other people, d) you enjoyed planning things to include other people’s concerns

Have you burnt all bridges? Have you alienated everyone that you relied/worked with? How difficult is it for your to admit where you were wrong and to make reparations for your errors? How difficult is it for you to make new friends? (remember the “stars” moving from one relationship to the next… they lived pure hell and more than likely also put others through pure hell–that cannot be your goal!)

…now look into your treasure trove… what do you find? What skills/abilities can you employ? Are you an athletic person or do you have skills with card games or musical instruments or is your IQ high and your patience high enough to tutor others…?

Do you frequent a local parish? Can you volunteer your time, abilities…?

Can you locate an emergency helpline center that needs volunteers–and are you able to detach yourself from your hurt enough to offer others hope?

Do you know any elderly couple or single men/women who need help walking their pets?

What activities are there in your school that you can join to gain benefit or to help others?

For the actual planning: take an 8 x 11 sheet of paper… folded in half (twice) and plan out a four-facet model: I > Things you must do to improve yourself; II > Things you must do to patch relationships with “xyz”; III > Things you must do to connect with other people (old/new friends/acquaintances); IV > Things you must do to improve your spiritual life

No lofty goals!

Be true to yourself–if you lie about what you can achieve (over projection) you will only slump down further into the muddled confusion in which you feel you’ve got caught up.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Jcrichton:

Jcrichton could you explain how you believe people “limit themselves” to the particular case mentioned for my own benefit in the sense that I may be limiting myself?

I never feel understood no matter how much I try to explain myself. When I am at peace I am reminded that no one but God alone can completely understand me which is enough. Do you have any advice on how to get over the desire to be understood?

…

Hi, Timothy!

…I’ve encounter people questioning issues such as Jacob and Esau… how can God hate Esau from before conception… why did He chose Jacob over his brother… it’s not fair…

…first apply what we know about God:

Omniscient and Omnipresent… which means God Knows everything and has Seen everything about Jacob and Esau… God saw how Esau sold his “birthright” for a plate of food; He saw how little importance Esau gave to being part of God’s Promise; god saw how Esau dishonored his parents wishes and married (took women) from outside of the Hebrews; God saw that Esau’s appetites were his only concern… Jacob on the other hand quested for the “birthright” and he sought and followed the advised of his parents and when cheated he did not resort to vengeance but worked diligently to obtain what he wanted… eventually Jacob met with God… and received the Blessing (Jacob’s Ladder: Genesis 28).

So God did not chose Jacob over Esau and then promoted Jacob and held back Esau… Jacob sought God; Esau distanced himself from God; God Loved what Jacob did and hated Esau’s rejection.

It is the same for everyone of us… God does not hate us and trap us in a bad life or bad experiences… God Loves us and want us to succeed:

15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast
and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget,
** I will not forget you**

!
16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands;
your walls are ever before me. (Isaiah 49:15-16)
God is on our side… we must begin from that understanding… then things will begin to make more sense…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…don’t get me wrong… I’m speaking about fervor of sharing Scriptures and our Faith… I think that too many are caught up in that “pious” thing (don’t want to stand for the Faith cause don’t want to hurt the sensitivities of others…) and the Protestant thing (they keep talking about sola Scriptura and sola Fide… look how far they’ve taken that: ‘everyone of them is their own pope!’); so the Church is still hurting from the splinterings’ backlashes… one of these “do not interpret the Scriptures outside of the Church” which may have been translated into ‘don’t read the Bible!’

I looked up “sola Scriptura” – I have been promoting that–even if what we call “Scripture” is not final–everything in their writings is true and believable. So that their writings could be our “common ground of agreement”. On the internet, I see that protests are over one person’s interpretation of Scripture. So I understand what you’re saying. What I hope we can achieve in discussing here, is to agree on places where the meaning is clear, and it is not credible for someone to just shrug and walk away saying “You have your interpretation and I have mine”. As an example, I’ve been talking about 1Cor2:14 and how all Calvinistic writers cite that as “proof that God must change hearts BEFORE (and in order that) someone can believe”. In other words, spiritual things must be given to (certain few) persons first, only then is it even possible to believe and be saved.

I cited verse 12 – one must receive the Holy Spirit before getting the “things”. It’s plainly stated. Question – can an unsaved, unrepentant walking-in-sin-person ever receive the Holy Spirit? Scripture opposes that idea.

So that’s the question – can two people (one Calvinist, the other non-Calvinist or Catholic), disagree on this verse – each claiming “Sola Scriptura”? Or is the wording exact so that only one meaning is possible? Obviously I lean towards “wording is clear and exact”. If someone else claims I am “Sola-Scriptura-WRONG-INTERPRETATION”, why would my interpretation be wrong? And there’s only one way I could see it could be wrong – the Holy Spirit would have to be received before belief and repentance. Does Scripture allow that idea, anywhere?

A Calvinist has no defense to being confronted with the context of 1Cor2:9-14; no way that the “things” of verse 14 are different than the “things” of verse 12. No way that the Holy Spirit is received before belief and repentance. So, “Sola Scriptura” is wrong when it is applied for its own sake (without credible exegesis with context), but there are times when certain concepts are rock solid and do overturn ideas (like we just overturned Calvinistic understanding of 1Cor2:14). Paul says in Titus1:9 “holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.” For that verse to be true, there have to be some points of doctrine that can be established to be “sound”. It’s one thing to say “sola Scriptura” without solid proof; it’s very different to embody “exhort-w/-sound-doctrine-&-refute” when something is solidly proven in Scripture.

 

[Gadgeteer]

…then there’s the onslaught of non-Catholics specifically targeting Catholics with their proselytizing… it could make one quite wary of sharing the Faith.

I understand that. Critical in ALL interactions, is to convey respect for each other. I stand against Atheism; but I have had Atheists rep me on internet forums for me saying something like, “How would you feel if an Atheist said to you, what you just posted to them? You’d be pretty insulted, wouldn’t you?”

Without that respect, discourse gets shut off; and fellowship dies. I know I’m not perfect; so if I unintentionally insult anyone here, I humbly ask to be made aware of it, so that I can ask forgiveness.

It is also easy to get carried away with half truths… that is why the totality of Revelation is necessary to be able to embrace God’s Word.

Okay, I can accept ideas like “the totality of Revelation”. And I know everyone understands that I will test ideas with what I find in Scripture; not really in a “Sola Scriptura” sense, but rather to see if their writings actually conflict with a given idea or not.

Though I do not subscribe to the “view” from the other’s understanding, I do respect each person’s convictions… I never challenge anyone’s beliefs; I simply offer my understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to do His Job–Conviction of heart and mind, is beyond me Call.

Suppose someone told you, “ALL roads lead to God! There are many paths to salvation!” I bet you would would cite John14:6 (“no one comes to the Father but by Me”), and Acts4:12 (“there is no other name under Heaven by which men must be saved”).

That’s what I mean by, “some things are stated clearly”.

It is because their understanding is fixated on their tenets of faith… a person makes a statement then searches Scriptures to authenticate the statement–well, whatever is found will be molded to the definition that has been preconceived.

I suppose we all do that. But how do we keep ourselves open to reading words which prove a tenet wrong?

I was trying to hold a Calvinistic Baptist preacher to 1Cor2:12; he refused to engage it, then refused to continue talking.

…sort of reading into Scriptures what jumps into the mind: ‘Jesus wrote “xyz” on the ground because…’

Yes. Some things are clear, and some seem inferred; surely Paul wrote Titus1:8 about the ones that are clear.

I concur with you that there are several Scriptural passages that do speak on the loss of Salvation (St. John 15:1-10 is one of my most favorite because of that);

What do you think of Rom11:18-23?

the problem is not that it is not clearly stated in Scriptures but that man can spin “interpretation” into ‘it’s what the Word is saying;’ much like the Mormons walk in speaking about the Bible and end up putting the Bible aside for the preeminence of their book.

Mormons have real trouble with ideas like, “There was no god formed before Me, there shall be none formed after Me!”

…and Jesus, Knowing how fragile the human condition is–‘did I not choose the Twelve of you?..’

No one has been able to explain why Jesus was NOT holding Judas up as “proof-of-leaving”.

…but Judas is an entire post (or a few) all to his own!

Yes. And no one will be able to prove why he was “never really saved”. John17:12 says Jesus lost Judas; ya’ hafta be FOUND, before ya’ kin be lost…

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi!

…does this not obliterate St. John’s definition of the term: “child of God?”:

…by claiming sonship on behalf of those who actively reject God, aren’t we, in effect, curtailing their free will by forcing them into a relationship which they reject?

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi! :tiphat:

Being created in the image of God isn’t something that we can choose to be. God is the Father of all by virtue He created man in His own image. In this broader framework, God is the Father of all humanity, and it was God who willed to be the Father of all when He created man in his own image. The decision was His, not Adam’s. Of course, there are people who reject God and don’t accept Him to be a father to them. And by doing so, they deprive themselves of their right to an inheritance. Recall Esau, who forfeited his right because of a tiny morsel of food, and the prodigal son who squandered his inheritance by leaving home and indulging in riotous and wasteful living. Jesus addressed this parable to the lost house of Israel, but it seems he had all of fallen humanity in mind as well. Through the Gospel, our Lord is calling all wayward souls to return home and be reconciled with their heavenly Father. Having been created in the divine image, they are called to partake in it. Those who reject God are still his children. But by disowning Him, like children who do in fact disown their biological parents, they are unworthy to be called His children.

• **“The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’*“But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.*Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate.*For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.
  Luke 15, 21-24

“I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.”
Luke 15, 7***

The imperative statement “You must be born anew” (Jn 3:7) applies to all humanity and lays down the obligation for all people to enter a renewed family relationship with God. By the conditions attached to this rebirth one receives pardon and enters the spiritual family of God. ‘So then [they] are no longer strangers and sojourners, but [they] are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God’ (Eph 2:19). Those who aren’t children of God in a regenerative sense aren’t children of His in the most deciding way. But they remain potential heirs to their promised inheritance as God’s children.

Anagogically, God’s chosen people represent all humanity in their relationship with God. God called the Israelites his own possession and established a covenantal relationship with them. Despite their apostasy and idolatry, they were still God’s chosen ones. But the rightful heirs of the promised inheritance were the faithful remnant. Meanwhile, the Gentiles were just as much sons and daughters of God by having been created in His image. But at that time, they were His chosen people in prospect. Jesus referred to them when he said, “I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd” (Jn 10:16). This one flock would include both Jews and Gentiles who would be children of God in a redemptive sense.

Although all people are children of God in a creative sense, this isn’t enough to establish a full and meaningful relationship. The very fact that so many people don’t relate with God in a filial way simply indicates that there’s a broken relationship that needs to be mended. It was for this reason that God became incarnate and Jesus spoke of God as a Father to all, who desires His errant children to return home so that He could embrace them. All prodigal sons and daughters have the liberty to return home (the household of God) if they will. Jesus didn’t try to force anyone to accept God as their heavenly Father, but reminded them how God was a father to them in His providential rule. As a father to all His children, God was mindful of their temporal needs and knew what and when to provide. So there was no reason for any of them to be anxious over earthly things. What was more important was how they related to God spiritually. Being a child of God in a spiritual sense should take priority in their lives. God eternally rewards those who abide by His sovereign will and punishes those who disobey Him.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18, 4

PAX
:heaven:

 

[Gadgeteer]

I looked up “sola Scriptura” – I have been promoting that–even if what we call “Scripture” is not final–everything in their writings is true and believable.

I guess I worded that wrong. Not, “I have been promoting Sola Scripture” – rather, what I was trying to say — “I have been promoting THE IDEA THAT, even if what we call ‘Scripture’ is not final, everything they wrote is true and believable.”

I’m sorry for being confusing.