A question about St. Joseph

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Pag_Hingowa

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I’ve learned that there’s a bible account says St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit on his mothers womb. How about St. Joseph? Joseph must have been sanctified in the womb, too, earlier than John but later than Mary… 🤷
 
Pag_Hingowa said:
I’ve learned that there’s a bible account says St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit on his mothers womb. How about St. Joseph? Joseph must have been sanctified in the womb, too, earlier than John but later than Mary… 🤷
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Why do you say that? :confused:
 
Pag_Hingowa said:
I’ve learned that there’s a bible account says St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit on his mothers womb. How about St. Joseph? Joseph must have been sanctified in the womb, too, earlier than John but later than Mary… 🤷
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Why would St JOSEPH have been 'sanctified in the womb? Why would he have needed to be sanctified earlier than St John (who was about 6 months in utero) but later than Mary (sanctified at conception)?
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Why would St JOSEPH have been 'sanctified in the womb? Why would he have needed to be sanctified earlier than St John (who was about 6 months in utero) but later than Mary (sanctified at conception)?
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Because of Joseph’s eminent dignity and honor. The saint next to the BVM. He belongs to the hypostatic order.
 
Pag_Hingowa said:
I’ve learned that there’s a bible account says St. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit on his mothers womb. How about St. Joseph? Joseph must have been sanctified in the womb, too, earlier than John but later than Mary… 🤷
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With regard to Joseph there is nothing in the Bible to suggest he was born free from original sin and it not a Church teaching.
Sorry, but your speculation is baseless.
 
thistle said:
The Hypostatic Union is the union of the human and divine natures of Christ. It has nothing to do with Joseph.
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From the website about the Hypostatic Order --All orthodox Catholic teaching.

The Order of the Hypostatic Union refers to those three person who belong to this ineffable mystery: the Incarnate Christ, Mary the Immaculate Conception, and Saint Joseph the Husband of Mary and Guardian of Christ. The Holy Family is the Order of the Hypostatic Union.

Saint Thomas Aquinas teaches that orders of ministries (either angelic or human) excel in proportion to their proximity to God (Summa theologiae I, q. 107, a. 6). Saint Joseph’s ministry and order, then, was higher than the ministry of the angels. Saint Joseph’s ministry, like that of Mary, is higher even than those of popes, bishops, and priests. This why traditional Catholic Church’s have altars to Mary and Joseph as testimonies to this truth. Mary and Joseph, with Christ, stand above all the orders and ministries of the supernatural order.

Francisco Suarez teaches that the ministry of Saint Joseph “surpasses all others because it exists in a superior order.” (Suarez, Tom II, disp. 8, sec. 1). Saint Francis de Sales holds to the same teaching. Moreover, all the theologians that compare the Holy Trinity to the order of the Holy Family confirm that the three persons of Holy Family belong to an order and ministry above all others.

And Yes, tradition DOES hold that St. Joseph was sanctified in the womb, and was born without Original Sin, and never sinned during his entire life and that his glorious holiness was only exceeded by his Virginal Spouse, Our Blessed Mother.
 
AmbroseSJ said:
From the website about the Hypostatic Order --All orthodox Catholic teaching.

The Order of the Hypostatic Union refers to those three person who belong to this ineffable mystery: the Incarnate Christ, Mary the Immaculate Conception, and Saint Joseph the Husband of Mary and Guardian of Christ. The Holy Family is the Order of the Hypostatic Union.

Saint Thomas Aquinas teaches that orders of ministries (either angelic or human) excel in proportion to their proximity to God (Summa theologiae I, q. 107, a. 6). Saint Joseph’s ministry and order, then, was higher than the ministry of the angels. Saint Joseph’s ministry, like that of Mary, is higher even than those of popes, bishops, and priests. This why traditional Catholic Church’s have altars to Mary and Joseph as testimonies to this truth. Mary and Joseph, with Christ, stand above all the orders and ministries of the supernatural order.

Francisco Suarez teaches that the ministry of Saint Joseph “surpasses all others because it exists in a superior order.” (Suarez, Tom II, disp. 8, sec. 1). Saint Francis de Sales holds to the same teaching. Moreover, all the theologians that compare the Holy Trinity to the order of the Holy Family confirm that the three persons of Holy Family belong to an order and ministry above all others.

And Yes, tradition DOES hold that St. Joseph was sanctified in the womb, and was born without Original Sin, and never sinned during his entire life and that his glorious holiness was only exceeded by his Virginal Spouse, Our Blessed Mother.
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That is neither from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, nor The Magesterium.
It is sheer speculation.
 
thistle said:
That is neither from Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, nor The Magesterium.
It is sheer speculation.
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Relax Thistle.

The “Order of the Hypostatic Union” is just a way to say that Mary and Joseph participated in the incarnation in a special way.

God willed that the Second Person of the Trinity be like man in every way except sin, and so he chose a human mother and a human father, and Jesus was born into a family context which included a valid marriage in the eyes of God. Jesus is true God and true man, born into a true family which had a true bond of wedlock. That’s all it is saying. It’s not a big deal.

In all of creation, the Holy Family - Jesus, Mary and Joseph - living their daily lives in humility and self-sacrificing love, is the closest thing mankind has ever had to the innermost workings of the Trinity itself. Marriage and family life is supposed to reflect the innner workings of the Trinity - God the Father loving God the Son, God the Son loving God the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeding as a fruit of that love (with all due respect to our Eastern brothers).

That’s how family life is supposed to function. The relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the model for father/husband, mother/wife and children relationships within our own families. That’s why marriage is a sacrament, because it is participation in the innermost life of the Trinity, and the Holy Family is our most perfect example of that.

That’s all the Order of the Hypostatic Union is. It’s simply God’s choice of Mary and Joseph’s as unique participats in the incarnation, and their God given role in making the hypostatic union possible. That’s all.

-Tim-
 
St. John the Baptist was touched by the Holy Spirit primarily to make him a prophet and the greatest of prophets.

St. Joseph was given a different role: to be a righteous Jewish man, working hard, concerned with other people’s good, obeying the Law and listening to God in his dreams, chaste in body and mind, and always respectful of the mysterious way God was working in his life without being overly afraid. His role was to be like the Joseph of the Bible or like Abraham, except less famous and more righteous. I don’t know whether it was taught by tradition that he was given any miraculous special gifts other than that; but tradition does teach that he died a happy death, with both Mary and Jesus there to comfort him.
 
TimothyH said:
Relax Thistle.

The “Order of the Hypostatic Union” is just a way to say that Mary and Joseph participated in the incarnation in a special way.

God willed that the Second Person of the Trinity be like man in every way except sin, and so he chose a human mother and a human father, and Jesus was born into a family context which included a valid marriage in the eyes of God. Jesus is true God and true man, born into a true family which had a true bond of wedlock. That’s all it is saying. It’s not a big deal.

In all of creation, the Holy Family - Jesus, Mary and Joseph - living their daily lives in humility and self-sacrificing love, is the closest thing mankind has ever had to the innermost workings of the Trinity itself. Marriage and family life is supposed to reflect the innner workings of the Trinity - God the Father loving God the Son, God the Son loving God the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeding as a fruit of that love (with all due respect to our Eastern brothers).

That’s how family life is supposed to function. The relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the model for father/husband, mother/wife and children relationships within our own families. That’s why marriage is a sacrament, because it is participation in the innermost life of the Trinity, and the Holy Family is our most perfect example of that.

That’s all the Order of the Hypostatic Union is. It’s simply God’s choice of Mary and Joseph’s as unique participats in the incarnation, and their God given role in making the hypostatic union possible. That’s all.

-Tim-
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That I understand but it is being used to imply and support the claim that Joseph must have been born free from original sin (the thread topic). For anyone to claim Joseph was born free from original sin is sheer speculation. Its not in the Bible. Its not in Sacred Tradition. Its not a Church teaching.
 
thistle said:
That I understand but it is being used to imply and support the claim that Joseph must have been born free from original sin (the thread topic). For anyone to claim Joseph was born free from original sin is sheer speculation. Its not in the Bible. Its not in Sacred Tradition. Its not a Church teaching.
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I actually agree. The Church has made no pronouncements on it and clearly does not consider it a matter of doctrine, so I wonder why some have the need to speculate on these things when there are many things that are of divine revelation that can be studied learned. I would recommend spending more time studying the Catechism and the writings of the saints and Popes rather than on things that have nothing to do with our salvation.
 
thistle said:
That I understand but it is being used to imply and support the claim that Joseph must have been born free from original sin (the thread topic). For anyone to claim Joseph was born free from original sin is sheer speculation. Its not in the Bible. Its not in Sacred Tradition. Its not a Church teaching.
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Agreed.

Let’s rather study more of things that are matters of divine revelation, such as the writings of the Saints, the Popes, the Bible and the Sacraments. Our time on earth is limited and there is much to learn on matters of faith. It would be best to spend time on the things that affect our salvation than those things that don’t.
 
thistle said:
That I understand but it is being used to imply and support the claim that Joseph must have been born free from original sin (the thread topic). For anyone to claim Joseph was born free from original sin is sheer speculation. Its not in the Bible. Its not in Sacred Tradition. Its not a Church teaching.
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OK. Sorry. I didn’t mean to lecture. Please forgive me.

Personally - and this is just me - I find it interesting that many people in the Scriptures are described as having “Walked blamelessly before God” and as having “Objeyed all of his commandments”.

I"m not saying they were sinless, but it is thought provolking for me.

-Tim-
 
I don’t know anything about this subject.

What I do know and expect, is that God is going to judge each person and that is most important, really the only thing that matters.

Just like private revelations that are intended primarily for the person who receives them, so God’s honor is important because that is what God thinks about it.

It’s not more important because we think it is important.

St Joseph’s sanctity and devotion to Jesus and Mary are exemplary, and they are even part of the gospels themselves. Isn’t that enough?

We have to put complicated, unique, and speculative titles and attributes on St Joseph?
 
TimothyH said:
OK. Sorry. I didn’t mean to lecture. Please forgive me.

Personally - and this is just me - I find it interesting that many people in the Scriptures are described as having “Walked blamelessly before God” and as having “Objeyed all of his commandments”.

I"m not saying they were sinless, but it is thought provolking for me.

-Tim-
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No problem.
 
thistle said:
With regard to Joseph there is nothing in the Bible to suggest he was born free from original sin and it not a Church teaching.
Sorry, but your speculation is baseless.
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It is only a theological opinion.
 
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