T
thistle
Guest
Except is is NOT supported by Scared Scripture, Sacred Tradition or The Magesterium!
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T
thistle
Guest
Oops. Typo. I meant Sacred Scripture and not Scared Scripture!!
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
The mystery of Christianity has been unfolding since the Apostles left us with the Deposit of Faith. Just because something has not been articulated in a doctrinal manner up to our own time, doesn’t mean that it won’t be someday, as the kernel exists even now. The kernel exists in the form of Pope’s, Saint’s and Theological writings, as well as what is held or believed by the Universal Church in her prayers and liturgy. The fact that there is a tradition of sound teaching in this regard by authorities in a position to teach within the Church, should not be dismissed as “unsupported.”
T
thistle
Guest
The Church does not know where St Joseph was entombed.
Which writings are these? I’m especially interested in the Papal ones since these would form such a “kernel”.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
Check out these links:
Redemptoris Custos
St. Joseph in the Liturgy
St. Joseph in the Magisterium
Regarding the OP’s question, we have sound theological writings which premise that since Jeremiah and St. John the Baptist are believed to have been sanctified in their mother’s womb, based on the interpretation placed on Scripture, and because of their high calling, and the grace required to fulfill such a ministry; and because St. Joseph was called into the highest order of grace in existence, meaning the order of the Hypostatic Union, with Jesus at the head, His Virgin Mother and St. Joseph completing this earthly trinitarian Order, it is thought only fitting, and proper that St. Joseph too, would be sanctified in the womb (but after his conception -unlike the Immaculate Conception-- but comparable to St. John the Baptist.) This belief is repeated often by writers and Saints down through the ages, and confirmed by several visionaries. But is this belief actually taught by Popes: no, at least not yet. But it wouldn’t surprise me if in the future such a statement would eventually be made by Popes.
Does that idea offend? If so why?
Redemptoris Custos
St. Joseph in the Liturgy
St. Joseph in the Magisterium
Regarding the OP’s question, we have sound theological writings which premise that since Jeremiah and St. John the Baptist are believed to have been sanctified in their mother’s womb, based on the interpretation placed on Scripture, and because of their high calling, and the grace required to fulfill such a ministry; and because St. Joseph was called into the highest order of grace in existence, meaning the order of the Hypostatic Union, with Jesus at the head, His Virgin Mother and St. Joseph completing this earthly trinitarian Order, it is thought only fitting, and proper that St. Joseph too, would be sanctified in the womb (but after his conception -unlike the Immaculate Conception-- but comparable to St. John the Baptist.) This belief is repeated often by writers and Saints down through the ages, and confirmed by several visionaries. But is this belief actually taught by Popes: no, at least not yet. But it wouldn’t surprise me if in the future such a statement would eventually be made by Popes.
Does that idea offend? If so why?
T
thistle
Guest
It has nothing to do with what offends or not.
Its simply that your speculation that St Joseph was born free from original sin is absolutely baseless. Wild unsupported speculation.
V
Viola_Incognita
Guest
From: St. Joseph in Liturgy (emphasis mine):
“Some [litanies of St. Joseph] contain pious opinions never taught by the Church, such as Joseph’s sanctification in the womb and his bodily assumption into heaven, but these were not condemned by the Church, since they simply reflected theological ideas of the time.”
May Christ’s peace be with you.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
No, it’s not wild and it’s not unsupported. It has everything to do with what offends, as people that are offended by these ideas are very vehement in their opposition to any evidence whatsoever that may support this view.
T
thistle
Guest
It is sheer speculation and not supported by the Church or Scripture.
V
Viola_Incognita
Guest
From Quamquam pluries, Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on Devotion to St. Joseph:
"3. The special motives for which St. Joseph has been proclaimed Patron of the Church, …] are that Joseph was the spouse of Mary and that he was reputed the Father of Jesus Christ.
"From these sources have sprung his dignity, his holiness, his glory. …]
"But as Joseph has been united to the Blessed Virgin by the ties of marriage, it may not be doubted that he approached nearer than any to the eminent dignity by which the Mother of God surpasses so nobly all created natures.
"For marriage is the most intimate of all unions which from its essence imparts a community of gifts between those that by it are joined together.
“Thus in giving Joseph the Blessed Virgin as spouse, God appointed him to be …] by virtue of the conjugal tie, a participator in her sublime dignity.”
From: Homily on the Feast of Saint Joseph, 27 March 1969, Pope Paul VI:
"Saint Joseph was the type of the message of that Gospel that Jesus was to announce as the programme in the redemption of mankind, once he left the little workshop at Nazareth and began his mission as prophet and teacher.
“Saint Joseph is the model of those humble ones that Christianity raises to great destinies, and he is the proof that in order to be good and genuine followers of Christ there is no need of “great things”; it is enough to have the common, simple, human virtues, but they need to be true and authentic.”
May Christ’s peace be with you.
"3. The special motives for which St. Joseph has been proclaimed Patron of the Church, …] are that Joseph was the spouse of Mary and that he was reputed the Father of Jesus Christ.
"From these sources have sprung his dignity, his holiness, his glory. …]
"But as Joseph has been united to the Blessed Virgin by the ties of marriage, it may not be doubted that he approached nearer than any to the eminent dignity by which the Mother of God surpasses so nobly all created natures.
"For marriage is the most intimate of all unions which from its essence imparts a community of gifts between those that by it are joined together.
“Thus in giving Joseph the Blessed Virgin as spouse, God appointed him to be …] by virtue of the conjugal tie, a participator in her sublime dignity.”
From: Homily on the Feast of Saint Joseph, 27 March 1969, Pope Paul VI:
"Saint Joseph was the type of the message of that Gospel that Jesus was to announce as the programme in the redemption of mankind, once he left the little workshop at Nazareth and began his mission as prophet and teacher.
“Saint Joseph is the model of those humble ones that Christianity raises to great destinies, and he is the proof that in order to be good and genuine followers of Christ there is no need of “great things”; it is enough to have the common, simple, human virtues, but they need to be true and authentic.”
May Christ’s peace be with you.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
That also could have been said about the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary in the early Church.
T
thistle
Guest
NO. The Fathers had opinions on these. Nobody had an opinion on St Joseph being born free from original sin.That also could have been said about the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary in the early Church.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
No, theologians and Saints (such as St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis De Sales, Jean Gerson, and many theologians down through the centuries have had such opinions.
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