A question about the Jews

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Kaninchen said:
There’s no supernatural equivalent to the anti-Christ (a concept that, in itself, of course, has no meaning whatsoever to us), Judaism doesn’t share Christianity’s ‘cosmic drama’ of a great struggle between God and Satan.
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There is no Christian drama of struggle between God and Satan. The struggle is between humanity and Satan.
 
After reading the link, I have to say that it seems strange how the Jewish sages have no problem transposing the nation Israel, which is described as the wife of thy Maker (Isaiah 54:5) and the “captive daughter of Zion” (Isaiah 52:2) into a MALE servant as described in Isaiah 52,53,54.
The male gender of who is described precludes the nation Israel as the servant. The gender does not keep being switched back and forth unless the interpreter is confused or mistaken.

Sorry, don’t see an issue here. The Christian Church is described in many various ways–as a body (I Corinthians 12), a vine (John 15), a building (Ephesians 2), the bride/wife of Christ (Ephesians 5), etc. Does this mean that the interpreter of the Chrisitan Scriptures was confused or mistaken? If we apply the critieria that I read you as applying, the centuries of Christian translators can’t even decide whether the Church is a plant, a building or a person.

Another mistake is the claim that the King James uses the plural of deaths in Isaiah 53:9. It is the singular (death), not deaths in my KJV.

To my reading, the writer of that article is not claiming that the KJV (which is not, btw, considered to be the most authoritative translation by many modern scholars) uses deaths, but that the original Hebrew used a term that was plural rather than singular.

Interesting, though, that the online version of the Tanakh (jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/jpstoc.html) lists it as “tomb” instead of “death.” Do bear in mind that the online version is from 1917. My 1985 edition uses “death” with a note that the emendation yields “tomb.” I wonder which translation this person was using. It’s a shame he doesn’t say so that one could more readily check such issues.
 
**That being said, I don’t have an understanding of the Catholic doctrine concerning the Anti-Christ. Can someone instruct me on how the CC sees the Anti-Christ? **

Well, here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about it. newadvent.org/cathen/01559a.htm
Don’t know if any teachings have changed since this was written. Your priest might be able to direct you to further readings.
 
check your local library for a book called the The Messiah Texts Jewish Legends of Three Thousand Years by Raphael Patai
 
In response to the question of the Anti-Christ and Catholic doctrine, I think there are different schools of thought. My priest has said that in the Revelation of John he is speaking of a number of things that were happening in the present time in which John lived. I know our church doesn’t ascribe to any of the pop teachings currently in vogue on the subject, but I’m not sure what it actually does teach. That would be a good question for another thread.
 
OK, I would like to get to the point about salvation if the Messiah is considered only a worldly redeemer that brings Israel to the forefront.

How does Judaism deal with the present cleansing of sin without the Temple blood sacrifices in existence right now?

What does the previous blood of the animal sacrifices (Passover, etc.) represent if it does not picture a Redeemer’s sacrifice as Christians believe?

Does Judaism consider salvation in any way similar to Christians?

Thank you for the past answers to my comments.
 
WOW! I think that my thread is evolving into something that I’ve been thinking about and would be interested in understanding. Once again, thank you all for your civility.
 
irishmac said:
WOW! I think that my thread is evolving into something that I’ve been thinking about and would be interested in understanding. Once again, thank you all for your civility.
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On a side note, I wanted to say, "Yay! I made it to my first 100!😛 "

:clapping: My 100th post :clapping:
 
brkn1 said:
OK, I would like to get to the point about salvation if the Messiah is considered only a worldly redeemer that brings Israel to the forefront.

How does Judaism deal with the present cleansing of sin without the Temple blood sacrifices in existence right now?

What does the previous blood of the animal sacrifices (Passover, etc.) represent if it does not picture a Redeemer’s sacrifice as Christians believe?

Does Judaism consider salvation in any way similar to Christians?
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I’ve not been ignoring your questions, it’s that asking Jews questions on Fridays has its drawbacks 🙂

You may find some answers at:

whatjewsbelieve.org/

Check out the topics on the frame to the left of the screen.

In addition –

Sacrifice:

jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/vegsacrifices.html

Repentance:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/repentence.html

Afterlife:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/afterlife.html

Original Sin:

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
 
irishmac said:
I have a serious question about the Jews. I would ask that the answers be civil and not anti-Semitic at all.

Are there practising Jews out there that are still waiting for the Messiah? I was always told that the prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to the rise of the Messiah. My understanding was that the Messiah, to the Jews, was to be a great and powerful leader that would rival the Caesars and make the Jews a powerful nation. Jesus Christ didn’t fit the mold of a great temporal leader to save the Jews from the world. So, my question is; Are there Jews that are still waiting the coming of the Messiah?

If so, wouldn’t the Anti-Christ fit the ideal of a Messiah were he to begin his reign on Earth today? The Anti-Christ, as I understand him to be (correct me if I’m wrong), would become a great leader who would rebuild King Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem, where he would rule. Wouldn’t he appear to fit the notion of the Messiah for the Jews?

I ask that we keep the discussion civil and charitable. Mods, please close this thread the moment the discussion is no longer charitable.
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You ask a question that has been so muddied in the current media,Christian Fiction and Non Fiction books let me try to answer it …I believe this whole ‘jewish antichrist theory’ is a false theory that originated by Christians trying to read the Talmud and Islamic Hadiths and reconciling them together with Scripture. Its false and leads to wicked deeds.

Messianic anticipation has had several eras in Judaism. The last great era was in the mid 1600’s when Rabbis reading the Zohar(a Tamudic book) expected a messeih. They got one, but in a crushing blow he converted to Islam and his 2nd became a Roman Catholic. Since Judaism made several secular turns and the fervor subsided, but messianic anticipation has picked up since the israeli state was formed. Surprisingly, more from Dispensational Christians than from Jews. But now the fervor is not just in the Kabbalah community, Christians and even Muslim extremists desire some type of showdown…whats scary is-its heresy. The time to Repent is now, the Messiah has come ALREADY and is redeeming his elect. All this war talk is just a trial that forget that it is the Gospel that saves. A war isnt needed.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: Repent ye, and believe the gospel.
 
Baraq said:
You ask a question that has been so muddied in the current media,Christian Fiction and Non Fiction books let me try to answer it …I believe this whole ‘jewish antichrist theory’ is a false theory that originated by Christians trying to read the Talmud and Islamic Hadiths and reconciling them together with Scripture. Its false and leads to wicked deeds.

Messianic anticipation has had several eras in Judaism. The last great era was in the mid 1600’s when Rabbis reading the Zohar(a Tamudic book) expected a messeih. They got one, but in a crushing blow he converted to Islam and his 2nd became a Roman Catholic. Since Judaism made several secular turns and the fervor subsided, but messianic anticipation has picked up since the israeli state was formed. Surprisingly, more from Dispensational Christians than from Jews. But now the fervor is not just in the Kabbalah community, Christians and even Muslim extremists desire some type of showdown…whats scary is-its heresy. The time to Repent is now, the Messiah has come ALREADY and is redeeming his elect. All this war talk is just a trial that forget that it is the Gospel that saves. A war isnt needed.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: Repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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THis post was a little confusing. Yes there was a false Messiah in the 1600s. And he provided a clear example of the dangers of following a false messiah. Many who did so abandoned the Torah, believing the laws were no longer necessary. They engaged in wife swapping and other improper behavior.

This is why we believe that the event of the Messiah coming will be self-evident and without question. Like seeing a woman 8 months pregnant. You don’t have to ask her if she had the baby yet. Belief in the messianic age has never been limited to Jewish mystics or mysticism, however. Not sure where you were going with that.

I’m not sure how you would measure messianic anticipation. Other than to say the worse things are, the harder we look for the Messiah.
 
Thank you for the links Kaninchen. I have been learning quite a bit about present-day Judaism in them.

The link you gave for the jewfaq.com site talked about sacrifices.
In the answers to the question: “Were sacrifices a symbol of the savior to come?”, I found it interesting how the explanation only went back as far as Cain and Abel’s offered sacrifices when discussing the subject.
The first sacrifice that is recorded is actually what God did to clothe Adam and Eve.
(Genesis 3:21) “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.”
Some animal’s lives had to be sacrificed which seems to be ignored here.

Cain’s offering of the “fruits of the ground” was rejected by God.
Abel’s bloody sacrifice of the “firstlings of his flock” was accepted by the LORD.
God sure seems to have indicated from the very beginning that proper animal sacrifice was a correct method of offering to God. This goes very much against the implications given that animal sacrifice originated only in response to the “debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.”
 
meedo said:
How can a Jew be an athiest ?!

It has always been a mystery to me .
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That depends on whether you define “Jew” as a religious grouping or a racial one.

The Nazis did the ‘race’ one. Some “Jews” were second generation Christians but because they had at least one grand-parent who had been a “Jew” then they too were deemed “Jews”
 
brkn1 said:
This goes very much against the implications given that animal sacrifice originated only in response to the “debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.”
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Ah but while it’s ‘in’ the Torah, it’s ‘before’ the Torah:
Sacrifice is an ancient and universal human expression of religion. Sacrifice existed among the Hebrews long before the giving of the Torah. Cain and Abel offered sacrifices; Noah and his sons offered sacrifices, and so forth. When the laws of sacrifice were given to the Children of Israel in the Torah, the pre-existence of a system of sacrificial offering was understood, and sacrificial terminology was used without any explanation. The Torah, rather than creating the institution of sacrifice, carefully circumscribes and limits the practice, permitting it only in certain places, at certain times, in certain manners, by certain people, and for certain purposes. Rambam suggests that these limitations are designed to wean a primitive people away from the debased rites of their idolatrous neighbors.
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jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm
 
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