A question concerning scandal

[sean1i0]

Hey, guys, I have a question for you. It also requires a lot of setup, too, so please bear with me.

First off, let me say that I am clinically diagnosed as OCD and so, as I’m sure you have no trouble understanding, I have had to deal with my scrupulosity quite a bit in the past. Ok, that’s putting it mildly, but still, these days it is, for the most part, a mild thing and where it isn’t I am usually aware that I’m being overly scrupulous and can deal with it from there. This situation is one where I’m not certain of that.

This situation has to do with my fiancee and myself. First let me say that we both still live with our parents and will continue to do so until we are married. We both have very good relationships with our parents. Now, when we first knew each other we were in a period of turmoil spiritually and neither of us had any appositions to premarital sex, so we started off doing that. She started the routine of coming over to spend the weekend at my house shortly after we started dating.

Now fast forward to the present.

We have been abstaining for longer than a month at this point and are living chastely by the grace of God. We still kiss, sometimes passionately, but no longer even french kissing (until after the wedding of course). She has continued to come over on the weekends, but I sleep on the couch. We have let our friends who know that she still sleeps over (or who know whether or not she is continuing that I guess I should say) know that we are abstaining and they believe us. My parents also know of that. At the very least they know that I am sleeping on the couch and that it is by my own will. The only person who does not know anything specifically about our sleeping arrangements is her dad (her mom passed away right before we started dating), because she has never said anything to him. Now, I want to be a faithful Catholic, so am I committing the sin of scandal by having her sleep over on the weekends without us explicitly saying something to him about our sleeping arrangements? It is important to note that he is a serious/devout Christian and that he is single. We are not sure if he is dating again. Even if he were I believe it would be more just for something to do with his loneliness than for a serious search for someone else.

Anyway, thanks to everyone ahead of time for any thoughts you have! God bless!

 

[LindaSK]

Why doesn’t she go home instead of staying for the weekend?

 

[Shaken]

Hey, guys, I have a question for you. It also requires a lot of setup, too, so please bear with me.
…
Now, I want to be a faithful Catholic, so am I committing the sin of scandal by having her sleep over on the weekends without us explicitly saying something to him about our sleeping arrangements? It is important to note that he is a serious/devout Christian and that he is single.

Anyway, thanks to everyone ahead of time for any thoughts you have! God bless!

If you want to be a faithful Catholic then surely you must be aware that a condition for marrying in the Catholic Church is no cohabitation. Don’t you agree that sleeping over equals cohabitation? If everyone knows you each stay in your own places, there is no question of scandal. If everyone knows she is staying overnight at your place or you are staying over at her place, then people wonder and that is scandal.

Some people might even be tormented. And that is how sin affects the entire community and not just the sinner; or in this case, the sinners. All this seems a matter for the confessional and not for a public discussion. No one on this forum can give you and your fiancee absolution.

But all this is quibbling, being legalistic. Do you want to be Catholic or don’t you? You decide. God knows even if others don’t.

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

*Hello.

I don’t think the father needs to know the sleeping arrangement because, contrary to popular belief, we don’t have to tell everyone close to us everything that goes on in our lives. But I can’t understand why this sleeping arrangement is necessary. It’s not as though one of you is homeless. She should be sleeping at her place and you at yours. If you did that, there would be no question or worry.

God bless you, too.

 

[sean1i0]

Well, thanks for all of your repsonses. Ok, a few thoughts to help the discussion. First off, I’ve already checked and this does not count as co-habitation. Secondly, yes, I agree that a priest would be a nice person to ask about this and I will tomorrow when I go to confession, but as one is not available at the hour I posted this I figured that this would be a good place to turn to get some alternative interpretations of Catholic theology. And in that regard, thank you to all of you.

As far as why she doesn’t just stay at her house, well, I definitely agree that this should be done if her staying here is sinful, but if it is not, then that would seem like feeding my OCD/scrupulosity. That is exactly the type of thing that caused me to go through a crisis of faith for some 7 years, so I would not consider it wise in my position. It has also become something quite special to us. Because of our schedules/“health issues”/other stuff it ends up giving us a lot more time to be together and enjoy each other’s love (in a wholly chaste way) on the weekend. This includes worshiping together at Mass. Like I said, as long as it is not sinful, I can only view it at the present time as a very desirable thing, but perhaps I am wrong.

Further thoughts?

 

[twf]

I think the other posters are forgetting that the OP lives with his PARENTS. She is a guest in his parents house and it is common knowledge (so be has told us) that they sleep in different rooms. So I don’t see how there could possibly be scandal…it might be different if he had his own place. I would only see an issue if her staying the night becomes a near occasion for sexual temptation.

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

Well, thanks for all of your repsonses. Ok, a few thoughts to help the discussion. First off, I’ve already checked and this does not count as co-habitation. Secondly, yes, I agree that a priest would be a nice person to ask about this and I will tomorrow when I go to confession, but as one is not available at the hour I posted this I figured that this would be a good place to turn to get some alternative interpretations of Catholic theology. And in that regard, thank you to all of you.

As far as why she doesn’t just stay at her house, well, I definitely agree that this should be done if her staying here is sinful, but if it is not, then that would seem like feeding my OCD/scrupulosity. That is exactly the type of thing that caused me to go through a crisis of faith for some 7 years, so I would not consider it wise in my position. It has also become something quite special to us. Because of our schedules/“health issues”/other stuff it ends up giving us a lot more time to be together and enjoy each other’s love (in a wholly chaste way) on the weekend. This includes worshiping together at Mass. Like I said, as long as it is not sinful, I can only view it at the present time as a very desirable thing, but perhaps I am wrong.

Further thoughts?

*It’s not sinful for her to sleep over as long as you’re not having sex. The sin is sex. No sex, no sin. It’s just that when someone is in the next room all night long, it could take a lot of discipline to stay focused. It’s a bit of temptation, you know? Avoiding temptation is the best way to go about it. BUT if you’re secure and committed to waiting and she is as well and you’re both confident that you could, then you should have no problem.

Just curious. Are your parents OK with her staying over? My son is still small but when he’s a young adult, I wouldn’t allow his girlfriend to stay over under any circumstances. But I’m a bit old fashion. I’m not saying that your parents are bad people, and I’m certainly not judging them. I’m just interested in their perspective on the matter.

 

[Celtic_Catholic]

I think the other posters are forgetting that the OP lives with his PARENTS. She is a guest in his parents house and it is common knowledge (so be has told us) that they sleep in different rooms. So I don’t see how there could possibly be scandal…it might be different if he had his own place. I would only see an issue if her staying the night becomes a near occasion for sexual temptation.

*Yes, but if you read it closely, you’ll see that he said that shortly after they started dating, she came to stay at his (and his parents’) house on weekends, and they were having sex at that time. Then they had a change of heart and got into religion and stopped having sex (only one month ago) but she’s still staying over on weekends. *

 

[sean1i0]

Well, I should note that I just turned 25 and my girlfriend is 31. We both just come from incredibly close families and we both just finished some more schooling. I have had to rely on my parents’ financial help due to my OCD and she has always been both close to her parents and in extra schooling. My parents are amazing people and have always been great Catholic role models. I was always interested in my religion when I was younger until I was around 18 or 19 when OCD caused me to have a nervous breakdown I guess you would say. It was a painful time, but I am so grateful to God for giving me the opportunity to go through that. When we started dating I was in more of a liberal Christian mindset and I didn’t believe premarital sex to be wrong at the time. It was actually Mark Shea’s writing that showed me th philosophical mistake I had been making. The major mistake is that I was actually thinking very gnostically. (The whole spirit = good and body = bad stuff.) I had forgotten that one of the major revelations of Catholic theology is that grace perfects nature. That right there meant that the body was also good and that sex could not be had without a marital commitment. That is a brief synopsis of the revelations I had that night while reading Mark Shea’s book. It was a beautiful time.

Anyway, my parents are comfortable with her staying over and especially since I am sleeping out on the couch. In general though, they have always been amazing at lending support, but letting me have my space to make my own decision or, at times, mistakes. They are the epitome of unconditional love, having never abandoned me no matter what I was going through and having always been there for me. Even when I knew they disagreed with something that I believed/did/thought/etc., I knew that they loved me and were proud of me. I love them very, very much and feel unbelievably blessed by God for them.

As for the difference between when we started dating and now, the major difference is that I now sleep out on the couch when she stays over. I agree, too, that if I felt as if the temptation might be too much it would not be a good idea, but, an maybe I am being too confident here, I do not in the least feel that this would present that sort of problem. I have always been the type that if I believe something to be wrong, then I will absolutely stay away from it. Before my problem was mainly a falling away from the fullness of the Church’s philosophical/theological/moral truth in her teachings. Other thoughts seemed so enlightened until I contemplated what our mother Church has been so academically developing for 2 millennium! (It’s amazing what just really listening to what the Church is saying will do, wouldn’t you say?)

Anyway, I think I’ve responded to all the questions and hopefully not too long-windedly! Lol! I tend to be quite loquacious.

 

[LindaSK]

I feel as though I have missed something here - which is not outside the realm of possibility!
I thought the question was more about ‘scandal’ than about whether or not his parents or her father were alright with their sleeping arrangements. As it has been explained to me by several priests, scandal is more about the ‘perception’ of others who might not want to be bothered by the ‘truth’ of a situation. I was directed to the CCC:
*II. Respect for the Dignity of Persons

Respect for the souls of others: scandal 

2284**
    Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.**

2285
    Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep's clothing.87

2286
    **Scandal can be provoked by** laws or institutions, by fashion or **opinion**.

    Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287
    **Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. **"Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90*

I am not doubting your honesty in that you are sleeping apart. You did say that you attend Mass together after spending the night under the same roof. My understanding of where there may be an occasion for scandal is that teenagers who observe this may feel that it is then OK for them to have similar arrangements with their boyfriends/girlfriends, which may turn out not to be so innocent. It is not for me or anyone else to judge, but such things are often the source of gossip, which also doesn’t always concern itself with the truth. That is just how ‘scandal’ was explained to me.