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fin
Guest
interesting topic, i was also plannning ot have Gregorian Masses for a loved one.
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blessedstar
Guest
I didnāt really want to put it in these words but I am going to now. My beating about the bush has caused alot of confusion and I apologise to everyone for that, so now Iāll be direct.
For some reason or another a person may feel that someone who has died had during their lifetime sinned a great deal and because of this find little if no peace of the deceased persons salvation. They spend alot of time praying for the deceased person and find little if no peace. I would not like to see that happen to any of my brothers and sisters. I agree that there is nothing wrong with repetition, I go to Mass over and over again, of course I agree with repetition. What concerns me is entrenchment in repetition because someone is fearful, worried and not consoled of someoneās salvation, this can be damaging to the soul and such persons at some point have to come to an acceptance of Godās Mercy both for the deceased person and for themselves. It may be expedient for people struggling with the salvation of deceased loved ones to offer simply one Mass (as one mass is perfect to the Father) in great faith and trust in God, for their own benefit and for the benefit of their loved one. Such souls that struggle this way are relying on their own judgements and without as others have rightly said, knowing the mind of God in respect of the person who has died. It seems that because we do not know whether or not someone is in heaven we look to the negative and assume they are not in heaven, this allows no room for Godās Mercy.
I understand the use of the Sacred Scripture of the persistance of praying, this encourages us to be hopeful of Godās Mercy, but it does not call us to be entrenched and it does not call us to persist for our own will, but for Godās will. At some point we have to realise that what we may be asking for is not Godās will. At some point we must trust in Godās will for our loved ones who have died.
We are not slaves, we are free men and women in Christ Jesus, Jesus has prepared a place for everyone, not just for some and we trust that those who believe in Christ Jesus whatever their faith will be treated with His Mercy.
As in all things we are called to be moderate and there is something distinctly downcast about a continual petition in respect of the dead. We are Easter People, who trust in Godās plan for us and rejoice in His grace that restore us to Himself. Jesus did not wrought salvation for us for us to be continually doubtful of His Mercy, the Cross holds up His mercy for all to see.
Now I am not saying that all people by repetitive prayer for the deceased are entrenched, but there is a danger this can happen to some and there is the reality that people may lose their joy in Christ Jesus, affect their spiritual health and faith and have no peace in Christ Jesus.
If anyone is making a repetitive prayer for the deceased, especially a deceased loved one, they would be wisely advised to discuss it with their Priest or Spiritual Director and then follow in obedience their advice.
For some reason or another a person may feel that someone who has died had during their lifetime sinned a great deal and because of this find little if no peace of the deceased persons salvation. They spend alot of time praying for the deceased person and find little if no peace. I would not like to see that happen to any of my brothers and sisters. I agree that there is nothing wrong with repetition, I go to Mass over and over again, of course I agree with repetition. What concerns me is entrenchment in repetition because someone is fearful, worried and not consoled of someoneās salvation, this can be damaging to the soul and such persons at some point have to come to an acceptance of Godās Mercy both for the deceased person and for themselves. It may be expedient for people struggling with the salvation of deceased loved ones to offer simply one Mass (as one mass is perfect to the Father) in great faith and trust in God, for their own benefit and for the benefit of their loved one. Such souls that struggle this way are relying on their own judgements and without as others have rightly said, knowing the mind of God in respect of the person who has died. It seems that because we do not know whether or not someone is in heaven we look to the negative and assume they are not in heaven, this allows no room for Godās Mercy.
I understand the use of the Sacred Scripture of the persistance of praying, this encourages us to be hopeful of Godās Mercy, but it does not call us to be entrenched and it does not call us to persist for our own will, but for Godās will. At some point we have to realise that what we may be asking for is not Godās will. At some point we must trust in Godās will for our loved ones who have died.
We are not slaves, we are free men and women in Christ Jesus, Jesus has prepared a place for everyone, not just for some and we trust that those who believe in Christ Jesus whatever their faith will be treated with His Mercy.
As in all things we are called to be moderate and there is something distinctly downcast about a continual petition in respect of the dead. We are Easter People, who trust in Godās plan for us and rejoice in His grace that restore us to Himself. Jesus did not wrought salvation for us for us to be continually doubtful of His Mercy, the Cross holds up His mercy for all to see.
Now I am not saying that all people by repetitive prayer for the deceased are entrenched, but there is a danger this can happen to some and there is the reality that people may lose their joy in Christ Jesus, affect their spiritual health and faith and have no peace in Christ Jesus.
If anyone is making a repetitive prayer for the deceased, especially a deceased loved one, they would be wisely advised to discuss it with their Priest or Spiritual Director and then follow in obedience their advice.
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nkelly
Guest
Dear blessedstar,
Iām currently reading a very interesting book called Charity for the Suffering Souls by Fr. John Nageleisen. Nowhere
in this book does it say that offering 1 mass is always sufficent. I relates several private apparitions of the deceased where they asked for multiple mass to be offered on their behalf. I donāt really understand the theology but not all of the graces contained in a mass are applied to those for whom the mass is offered. It also says that Holy Mass is more effective when offered for fewer people as opposed to several people.
I think Iād prefer not to take a chance and offer several masses instead of 1 in case the souls of our dear departed are further delayed on gaining entrance to the Glory of God.
So Iām siding with Sir Knight on this one!
God bless,
Noel.
Iām currently reading a very interesting book called Charity for the Suffering Souls by Fr. John Nageleisen. Nowhere
in this book does it say that offering 1 mass is always sufficent. I relates several private apparitions of the deceased where they asked for multiple mass to be offered on their behalf. I donāt really understand the theology but not all of the graces contained in a mass are applied to those for whom the mass is offered. It also says that Holy Mass is more effective when offered for fewer people as opposed to several people.
I think Iād prefer not to take a chance and offer several masses instead of 1 in case the souls of our dear departed are further delayed on gaining entrance to the Glory of God.
So Iām siding with Sir Knight on this one!
God bless,
Noel.
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blessedstar
Guest
Thatās fine Noel, each to their own in how they pray, I am a great advocate of that.Dear blessedstar,
Iām currently reading a very interesting book called Charity for the Suffering Souls by Fr. John Nageleisen. Nowhere
in this book does it say that offering 1 mass is always sufficent. I relates several private apparitions of the deceased where they asked for multiple mass to be offered on their behalf. I donāt really understand the theology but not all of the graces contained in a mass are applied to those for whom the mass is offered. It also says that Holy Mass is more effective when offered for fewer people as opposed to several people.
I think Iād prefer not to take a chance and offer several masses instead of 1 in case the souls of our dear departed are further delayed on gaining entrance to the Glory of God.
So Iām siding with Sir Knight on this one!
God bless,
Noel.
Would you mind reading my last post as to why I am advocating for some souls to offer one Mass. Note this especially :Now I am not saying that all people by repetitive prayer for the deceased are entrenched, but there is a danger this can happen to some and there is the reality that people may lose their joy in Christ Jesus, affect their spiritual health and faith and have no peace in Christ Jesus.
The grace of Godās Mercy is always available at Mass. Godās grace of Mercy is available always whether in Mass or outside of Mass.
Thank you for your reply
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nkelly
Guest
I understand your point of view but what if youāre wrong and it turns out that several Masses are indeed required and you COULD have saved souls from the torments of Purgatory by the offering of more Masses.Thatās fine Noel, each to their own in how they pray, I am a great advocate of that.
Would you mind reading my last post as to why I am advocating for some souls to offer one Mass.
The grace of Godās Mercy is always available at Mass.
Thank you for your reply
The offering of a Mass is never wasted. If the person for whom you are offering the Mass is already seeing the Beatific Vision, then that Mass will be applied to another soul.
Itās all about charity! We shouldnāt put a limit on our charity.
If Iām wrong, then all youāve done is release lots more souls than you realised!
May the Lord bless us and keep us from all evil and bring us to everlasting life!
Noel.
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blessedstar
Guest
I understand this Noel. What of charity to those who are bereaved also?
There is nothing stopping friends and relatives and even strangers praying for those on the Dead List and offering Mass. The private revelations encourage us not to forget the dead and to make an offering of prayer for them and also to know they pray for us and we are all linked eternally in Christ Jesus. These private revelations are not given to c ause us to continually worry about the spiritual state of the dead the other side of life, this does not trust in Godās Mercy. At every Mass during the Liturgy the dead are remembered and prayed for in the confidence of Godās Mercy.
What of also trusting in Godās Mercy?
At what point do you say enough Masses have been said to obtain Godās Mercy?
Jesus always said āYour faith has made you wellā. Isnāt it faith in Godās Mercy that obtains Mercy?
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nkelly
Guest
The suffering souls can do nothing to help themselves, theyāre relying on our Charity and on the Mercy of God. Remember Jesus said in Matthew 5:26
āAmen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.ā
As for Godās Mercy, yes Heās merciful as regards eternal punishment but we still have to ādo timeā for our sins after indulgences have been applied.
Eternal rest grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. Amen.
God bless,
Noel.
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blessedstar
Guest
You do not know how much purgatory was served here on earth. How many farthings were paid here.
God is not like that, He is not going to reject love and faith. God is merciful and very few perceive Him as such. A short examination of our own consciences tell us we deserve nothing yet He has given us everything, even His own Kingdom now on earth and Himself. Jesus did not say to the Good Thief, go and repay every farthing, because in his death on the cross which symbolised the death of his āselfā and his rising in Christ Jesus and his love of and faith in Jesus, Jesus was merciful. The crux here is that the Good Thief was merciful to Jesus and then said āRemember meā and Jesus told Him that that very day, not in a few days or a hundred years, but that very day āHe would be with Him in Paradiseā. Those who have no mercy to others in their sufferings whatever they may be and put heavy tasks and laws on others that they themselves are guilty of committing will find it difficult to obtain mercy but even for these should they repent at the last minute and plead for Godās mercy will obtain mercy and the faith of those who have faith in Godās mercy will obtain Godās mercy for them.
So then you pray for them, this is just, but have mercy on those who are bereaved and may be struggling a great deal with worry over where there loved ones are, this is equally just. For those I would advocate trusting in Godās great and infinite Mercy.
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InLight247
Guest
In our daily life, we repeatedly tell our loved ones āI love you,ā even though they know we love them.
Persistently praying for someone or offer Mass for someone is like to keep on saying āI love you,ā in a spiritual sense. Just because we repeatedly offer Mass to a deceased person does not mean we are tortured by lack of trust or worry. Neither does it mean that praying for the alive are neglected.
Since no one knows for sure how it really works for the souls to be released from purgatory, it is always good to offer multiple Masses for the deceased loved one as long as we have love, trust, and peace in our hearts.
Persistently praying for someone or offer Mass for someone is like to keep on saying āI love you,ā in a spiritual sense. Just because we repeatedly offer Mass to a deceased person does not mean we are tortured by lack of trust or worry. Neither does it mean that praying for the alive are neglected.
Since no one knows for sure how it really works for the souls to be released from purgatory, it is always good to offer multiple Masses for the deceased loved one as long as we have love, trust, and peace in our hearts.
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blessedstar
Guest
Since no one knows for sure how it really works for the souls to be released from purgatory, it is always good to offer multiple Masses for the deceased loved one** as long as we have love, trust, and peace in our hearts./**QUOTE]
Very well said!
S
Sir_Knight
Guest
More than a year after his death, I still offer up Rosaries for JPII.
With the pious life that he led, one would think that he would have gone straight to heaven and if he didnāt, with all of the prayers and masses offered for his intention, one would think that he would have made it out of purgatory in record time.
But to BE ON THE SAFE SIDE, I still continue to pray for his soul confident that if he is already in heaven, those prayers will be applied to where ever they are most needed.
With the pious life that he led, one would think that he would have gone straight to heaven and if he didnāt, with all of the prayers and masses offered for his intention, one would think that he would have made it out of purgatory in record time.
But to BE ON THE SAFE SIDE, I still continue to pray for his soul confident that if he is already in heaven, those prayers will be applied to where ever they are most needed.
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daniel87
Guest
you can and should offer holy Masses and pray for anyone Catholic or non-Catholics who died, but we can never be sure without Divine help to know if they have reached Heaven so we must continue and presevere, because even to offer the holy Mass with its infinite value cannot assure that they have instantly reached Heaven, as Gods mercy cannot be in conflict with His justice,
As regards the intervention of Our Lady, we have the word of the saints, and it should be enough to refer to the revelations of Saint Alphonsus Liguori:
A holy religious, he tells us, called Sister Catherine of Saint Augustine, had the beautiful habit of praying for the Holy Souls, both known and unknown to her. However, in the town where she lived, there was a woman known for her bad conduct. Her name was Mary. When this woman died, everybody presumed that she was damned; and as a result her funeral was less than edifying. Not only this, but not even Sister Catherine bothered to pray for her, for she, too, assumed that she was lost.
Four years passed. One day the pious nun saw a soul from Purgatory who said to her: āSister Catherine, you have had the pious habit of praying for the dead. Do not make an exception in my case.ā
āWho are you?ā, asked the sister. āI am poor Mary who died all abandoned.ā āBut what do you mean? Are you saved?ā āYes,ā she answered. "I have been saved, thanks to the intercession of Our Lady. I realized I was about to die alone and without assistance, so I turned to the Madonna. I said: āO my Queen! You are the refuge of sinners and of the abandoned. Look on my state of complete abandonment at this moment and help me.ā
āThe most holy Virgin heard my prayer and came to my aid and obtained for me the grace of an act of perfect contrition so that I was saved on my death-bed. But the divine motherās mercy wasnāt limited to this. When I was before the Judge, she obtained from her Son the grace that my time in Purgatory be noticeably shortened. And because Godās justice cannot be in conflict with His rights, I suffer more intensely, but for a shorter period, in order that my debt be paid. At this moment I am in need of nothing other than some Masses. As soon as these are celebrated, I shall be released from my suffering. Please be merciful toward me and have them said for my intention. I promise that I shall not cease to pray to God and the holy Virgin for you.ā [Footnote: LOUVET P., Il Purgatorio secondo le rivelazioni dei santi, pp. 23-25]
Sister Catherine hurried to have the Masses celebrated, and a few days later she saw her ascend to Heaven and thank her for her charity.
(The Holy Souls: āViva Padre Pioā, āPadre Pio of Pietrelcinaā Editions, 1994, by Fr. Alessio Parente O.F.M. Cap., pp. 52-53)
holy Mass can be offered for the deseased, (Purgatory) both Catholics and Non-Catholics, because even if they have died you can pray and offer for their conversion before their death, even if they died in the past, as time does not exist for God, so prayers and offerings in the future (to us, as we at the moment are subject to time, not having entered eternity yet) can benefit people now and hopefully help non believers or sinners not willing to make reparation to be perfectly contrite before their death, even if it seems they are lost, because to say they were would be uncharitable and would doubt Gods mercy, but we should not presume on His mercy, so always pray and offer for the holy souls in purgatory and the conversion of sinners and you will be rewarded graciously.
Could any Priests or theologians please confirm or correct these views , I also would like more information if anyone is willing to post more. God bless you
As regards the intervention of Our Lady, we have the word of the saints, and it should be enough to refer to the revelations of Saint Alphonsus Liguori:
A holy religious, he tells us, called Sister Catherine of Saint Augustine, had the beautiful habit of praying for the Holy Souls, both known and unknown to her. However, in the town where she lived, there was a woman known for her bad conduct. Her name was Mary. When this woman died, everybody presumed that she was damned; and as a result her funeral was less than edifying. Not only this, but not even Sister Catherine bothered to pray for her, for she, too, assumed that she was lost.
Four years passed. One day the pious nun saw a soul from Purgatory who said to her: āSister Catherine, you have had the pious habit of praying for the dead. Do not make an exception in my case.ā
āWho are you?ā, asked the sister. āI am poor Mary who died all abandoned.ā āBut what do you mean? Are you saved?ā āYes,ā she answered. "I have been saved, thanks to the intercession of Our Lady. I realized I was about to die alone and without assistance, so I turned to the Madonna. I said: āO my Queen! You are the refuge of sinners and of the abandoned. Look on my state of complete abandonment at this moment and help me.ā
āThe most holy Virgin heard my prayer and came to my aid and obtained for me the grace of an act of perfect contrition so that I was saved on my death-bed. But the divine motherās mercy wasnāt limited to this. When I was before the Judge, she obtained from her Son the grace that my time in Purgatory be noticeably shortened. And because Godās justice cannot be in conflict with His rights, I suffer more intensely, but for a shorter period, in order that my debt be paid. At this moment I am in need of nothing other than some Masses. As soon as these are celebrated, I shall be released from my suffering. Please be merciful toward me and have them said for my intention. I promise that I shall not cease to pray to God and the holy Virgin for you.ā [Footnote: LOUVET P., Il Purgatorio secondo le rivelazioni dei santi, pp. 23-25]
Sister Catherine hurried to have the Masses celebrated, and a few days later she saw her ascend to Heaven and thank her for her charity.
(The Holy Souls: āViva Padre Pioā, āPadre Pio of Pietrelcinaā Editions, 1994, by Fr. Alessio Parente O.F.M. Cap., pp. 52-53)
holy Mass can be offered for the deseased, (Purgatory) both Catholics and Non-Catholics, because even if they have died you can pray and offer for their conversion before their death, even if they died in the past, as time does not exist for God, so prayers and offerings in the future (to us, as we at the moment are subject to time, not having entered eternity yet) can benefit people now and hopefully help non believers or sinners not willing to make reparation to be perfectly contrite before their death, even if it seems they are lost, because to say they were would be uncharitable and would doubt Gods mercy, but we should not presume on His mercy, so always pray and offer for the holy souls in purgatory and the conversion of sinners and you will be rewarded graciously.
Could any Priests or theologians please confirm or correct these views , I also would like more information if anyone is willing to post more. God bless you
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