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Lutheranteach
Guest
If I read one more time that protestants have no eucharist, I don’t know what I’ll do.
LutheranTeach…I suggest you look at the Apostolic churches. If Roman Catholicism is troubling there are 21 different Catholic churches to choose from; we’re smaller but just as Apostolic. If the affliation catholic bothers you go Orthodox. In truth an earlier poster is correct that we shouldn’t just follow Paul or Peter, or any one person or than Jesus. So go where you find him.
As a brother Lutheran, I have learned something from the poster GKC, who is Anglican, about this issue: The Catholic Church teaches our pastors do not have validity, and therefore cannot confect the Eucharist. It is what Rome teaches, and her members are bound to believe it. As a result, they claim it to be true. And we should expect no less from them.
Lutherans believe that our orders are valid (and Anglicans believe their’s are), and therefore our sacraments are. We accept the validity of Catholic Orders. We would very much like the Catholic Church to reciprocate in kind, but we do not require it to know that Christ’s body and blood are truly present in our Lutheran Eucharist.
And then there is this quote from Cr. Ratzinger, which leads me to believe there is hope for the future.
Jon
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lutherlic
Guest
Lutheranteach, I would just like to build on JonNC’s (always) excellent comments.
Catholic comments on this are generalizations about Protestants. Unlike Lutherans and Anglicans, most Protestants do not believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist or even receive communion as a routine part of their services.
Catholics often pray for the unity of all Christians too. Catholic unity with some Anglicans is happing now which is very exciting. Of all the other Protestant denominations, I see this more as a possibility with Lutherans someday (particularly LCMS).
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RedBert
Guest
You keep bring up the disagreement among Protestants.
There is a big elephant in the room that you are not discussing.
what about he disagreements among Catholics?
different beliefs under one roof vs.different beliefs under different roofs?
Eighty-five percent (85%) of Catholics believe Jesus rose from the dead along with 86% of Protestants and 97% of Evangelical Christians.
Eighty-nine percent (89%) of Catholics also think Jesus was the son of God. That view is shared by 90% of Protestants and 97% of Evangelical Christians.
Finally, 87% of Catholics, 95% of Protestants and all Evangelical Christians surveyed believe that Jesus Christ walked the earth.
rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/holidays/april_2009/79_believe_jesus_christ_rose_from_the_dead
The pollsters reported that:
"Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the Virgin Birth. Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth."
read that again it case you missed it.
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm
from a conservative Catholic April 2009
" Church-going Catholics are far more likely that Church-going non-Catholics (almost all Protestant) to accept immoral behavior.
I do not find this surprising. Other polls I have seen over the years reveal similar patterns.
Why?
The failure of catechesis over the past two generations is one of the principal reasons. Making felt banners does not help produce a reverence for God and the moral law. Catechesis may have improved in the schools, but fewer Catholic children are going to Catholics schools or to religious education classes. Instead they are picking up their attitudes from their poorly-catechized parents, among whom are prominent politicians.
But this still does not fully explain the difference. Why are Church-going Protestants better able to resist accepting prevalent secular attitudes to morality? Catholics once submitted to the teaching authority of the Church; many Catholics, even those who regularly attend church, have clearly rejected that, and have nothing to replace it except the standards of American society. Perhaps Protestantism, built upon a veneration of the Bible, has been better able to resist the moral acids of secularism. Catholics claim that the living authority of the magisterium is better able to meet moral challenges, but this does not in fact seem to be the case. Roma locuta est, but very few Catholics are listening. When the Bible speaks, (and it does speak clearly on many issues) many Protestants listen.-lee podles
podles.org/dialogue/183-183.htm
In EVERY survey or poll a protestant is more like to belive the essintial core Biblical truths (ie. diety of Christ, resurection , Virgin Birth) than a Catholic
for me and many others, I would rather sit next to a person in Church who shares my beliefs: apparently that is not a requirement in the Catholic Church.
look at table 2 hear at
harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
There is a big elephant in the room that you are not discussing.
what about he disagreements among Catholics?
different beliefs under one roof vs.different beliefs under different roofs?
Eighty-five percent (85%) of Catholics believe Jesus rose from the dead along with 86% of Protestants and 97% of Evangelical Christians.
Eighty-nine percent (89%) of Catholics also think Jesus was the son of God. That view is shared by 90% of Protestants and 97% of Evangelical Christians.
Finally, 87% of Catholics, 95% of Protestants and all Evangelical Christians surveyed believe that Jesus Christ walked the earth.
rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/holidays/april_2009/79_believe_jesus_christ_rose_from_the_dead
The pollsters reported that:
"Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the Virgin Birth. Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth."
read that again it case you missed it.
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm
from a conservative Catholic April 2009
" Church-going Catholics are far more likely that Church-going non-Catholics (almost all Protestant) to accept immoral behavior.
I do not find this surprising. Other polls I have seen over the years reveal similar patterns.
Why?
The failure of catechesis over the past two generations is one of the principal reasons. Making felt banners does not help produce a reverence for God and the moral law. Catechesis may have improved in the schools, but fewer Catholic children are going to Catholics schools or to religious education classes. Instead they are picking up their attitudes from their poorly-catechized parents, among whom are prominent politicians.
But this still does not fully explain the difference. Why are Church-going Protestants better able to resist accepting prevalent secular attitudes to morality? Catholics once submitted to the teaching authority of the Church; many Catholics, even those who regularly attend church, have clearly rejected that, and have nothing to replace it except the standards of American society. Perhaps Protestantism, built upon a veneration of the Bible, has been better able to resist the moral acids of secularism. Catholics claim that the living authority of the magisterium is better able to meet moral challenges, but this does not in fact seem to be the case. Roma locuta est, but very few Catholics are listening. When the Bible speaks, (and it does speak clearly on many issues) many Protestants listen.-lee podles
podles.org/dialogue/183-183.htm
In EVERY survey or poll a protestant is more like to belive the essintial core Biblical truths (ie. diety of Christ, resurection , Virgin Birth) than a Catholic
for me and many others, I would rather sit next to a person in Church who shares my beliefs: apparently that is not a requirement in the Catholic Church.
look at table 2 hear at
harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=982
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
What a skewed view and statement. There are over a billion Catholics worldwide. With the percentages shown, chances are greater of sitting next to like minded believers in the Catholic Church. Secondly, how can you judge what’s in the hearts of those sitting next to you, anywhere?
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RedBert
Guest
you are in denial: cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a044.htmlWhat a skewed view and statement. There are over a billion Catholics worldwide. With the percentages shown, chances are greater of sitting next to like minded believers in the Catholic Church. Secondly, how can you judge what’s in the hearts of those sitting next to you, anywhere?
By Archbishop Michael J. Sheehan
Only 30 percent of those surveyed believe they are actually receiving the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.
“As Archbishop, I am deeply concerned about the inaccurate and distorted views of the Eucharist apparently held by many of our people.”
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
I’m not in denial, and I’m not searching out on the ‘internet’ to find only those sources to support my view. You are merely attempting to ‘belittle’ Catholicism with your skewed view of numbers. Does this make your faith stronger?
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RedBert
Guest
It comes down to this:
If Protestants disagree on infant vs. believer baptism AND want to start a church where they are with “like minded believers”, well that just about the worst thing ever.
But you are willing to accept a 70% disbelief rate among Catholics about the Eucharist as long as they can be called Catholics.
If Protestants disagree on infant vs. believer baptism AND want to start a church where they are with “like minded believers”, well that just about the worst thing ever.
But you are willing to accept a 70% disbelief rate among Catholics about the Eucharist as long as they can be called Catholics.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
It’s not a matter of ‘acceptance’, as you seem determined to insinuate, again for the purposes of ‘bashing’ Catholicism.
I try not to be so self righteous as to know what I cannot see with the eye, especially for the purposes of pitting one Church against another.
Is your Church full of perfect people?
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RedBert
Guest
No , my church is filled with sinners:
The problem is they don’t know it.
A few years ago an “on fire for the Lord” associate pastor left to go to a new “non-denominational” denomination. Many of those who were deep in the faith left to go with him:
As I was just starting out in my walk ; I didn’t get it.
Now many years later: when I am trying to grow in my faith ;(loving the Lord with all my heart,strength and soul) I too am becoming frustrated with the “pew potatoes” on their “sit with Christ”…members just going through the motions , because that’s what “good” people do.
When I meet the members of the other Church, I see they are living “spirit filled lives (24x7) not 60 minutes once a week.
I desire to worship with people who love the Lord. I need to be with people who love the Lord.
If I knew that 70% of the members did not believe in the one of the most fundamental basics tenets of the faith, I would seek out another church, regardless of its name.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Would you leave Christ’s Church if many left Him and walked with Him no more?
Joh 6:66 (6:67) After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
I go to Church for what I believe and not what others may believe, or not believe.
J
Joshua27
Guest
Here’s a more interesting question I pose to everyone:
Would you leave Christianity if Christ himself (when he returns) walks away from it? Would you follow him and leave your church and your religion behind?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Christ is our religion, what we base our faith and hope in. He is the cornerstone, the head of the body, which is the Church He built. He cannot be divided.
J
Joshua27
Guest
Truly…he (the head) cannot be divided from His body. So again, if the God-man - once he returns - walks away from Christianity, would you follow Him and leave your religion (this isn’t just your question to answer…I’m interested in everyone else’s answer too)?
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
How do you suppose Christ to walk away from Christianity, which is belief in Him?
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RedBert
Guest
Christ’s Church is a group of belivers, not an organzation.
John 6: is about Faith and belief.
Worship is for God , not for me: however I still prefer to be with believers rather than people just going through the motions , or worse : actually NOT believing.
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RedBert
Guest
If the True Christ returns and walks away from all organized religions : I would follow.
Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
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