A Question for both Catholics and Protestants

[TriuneUnity]

Oh please. It’s the INTERNET. Let’s not pretend the problem is in any way something unique to CAF.

It’s not…it’s a plague of internet forums in general. Just pointing out humorously that one shouldn’t be surprised by goofiness when it’s seen on a post. Nothing serious, play through

 

[LutheranDK]

And I have not once tried to convert anyone here who is not Jewish away from Catholicism. Judaism does not seek converts, I have only said that a million times.

Well, not entirely true

There are, as you no doubt are aware, loads of Rabbinical Jewish organisations outthere, to convert Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews to rabbinic Judaism.

And, if one goes back long enough (say to the time of the NT), Judaism was also prozelytizing among heathens.

 

[Sepharad]

Well, not entirely true

There are, as you no doubt are aware, loads of Rabbinical Jewish organisations outthere, to convert Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews to rabbinic Judaism.

And, if one goes back long enough (say to the time of the NT), Judaism was also prozelytizing among heathens.

Well, that’s because we do not see “Hebrew Christians” or “Messianic Jews” as truly Christian. If they were born Jewish or born of a Jewish mother, then they are Jews and if they return to the practice of the faith they were born into, they do not even have to go through any re-entry ceremony (just as a former Catholic choosing to return to Catholicism only has to go to confession.)

For example: there was a man named Stephen Dubner, who parents were Jewish converts to Catholicism during WW2. He was their 8th child, and when he was older and began learning of his family background, he decided to return to his people. Today he is an Orthodox Jew, married to a Jewish woman, raising Jewish children. (Of his parents’ 8 children, only one of them remains a practicing Catholic.) To learn more, see stephenjdubner.com So you see, he had never been a practicing Jew, yet to become one all he had to do was study on what his parents did not teach him.

Likewise, David Gresham (one of Joy Gresham’s two sons) is, today, a Chasidic Jew in Israel…in case you don’t know who she was, she was the wife of Christian writer C. S. Lewis…she was Jewish but became a Christian under his influence. David Gresham did not have to go through any re-entry to be a religious Jew, because it was considered as if was always one, despite what his mother did. There are many cases like this.

Yes, Judaism did proselytize before the advent of Christianity. The rabbis decreed that this was no longer to be done, because the state church (after Constantine) began punishing and harming Jews who tried to convert others to the Jewish faith. So the reason we gave it up was because Christianity persecuted us if we did not do so.

And since conversion to Judaism was not a matter of salvation for us (only Christianity and Islam see it that way), it was alright for us to give it up. Now, we wait for Gentiles to come to us.

 

[LutheranDK]

Well, that’s because we do not see “Hebrew Christians” or “Messianic Jews” as truly Christian. If they were born Jewish or born of a Jewish mother, then they are Jews and if they return to the practice of the faith they were born into, they do not even have to go through any re-entry ceremony (just as a former Catholic choosing to return to Catholicism only has to go to confession.)

…

And since conversion to Judaism was not a matter of salvation for us (only Christianity and Islam see it that way), it was alright for us to give it up. Now, we wait for Gentiles to come to us.

Before I begin: I DID read the two stories you posted, and thank you. But my reply is to the paragraphs I’ve quoted.

1: Interesting distinction. I did know of the halachic definition of who’s a Jew (= if your mother’s Jewish - you are), but the main objection to Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians I’ve heard from Rabbinical Jewish sources is that if one becomes a Christian (“Hebrew Christians” and “Messianic Jews” both included), one is not only an apostate, but one is no longer a Jew. How can this be, if Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians are still considered “fair game” for prozelytizing?

2: Just to make sure I didn’t misunderstood what you wrote (probably did - since English is, as you know, not my mother tongue ):
Are you saying that conversion to Judaism is not a matter of salvation for Jews (the “…for us”-part?) or are you saying that Gentiles don’t need to convert to Judaism to be saved?

The latter would fit my understanding of what Rabbinical Judaism teaches better than the former, but I’ve been known to be mistaken, and I’ve heard that where 10 Jews are gathered, 11 opinions are voiced

 

[Sepharad]

Before I begin: I DID read the two stories you posted, and thank you. But my reply is to the paragraphs I’ve quoted.

1: Interesting distinction. I did know of the halachic definition of who’s a Jew (= if your mother’s Jewish - you are), but the main objection to Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians I’ve heard from Rabbinical Jewish sources is that if one becomes a Christian (“Hebrew Christians” and “Messianic Jews” both included), one is not only an apostate, but one is no longer a Jew. How can this be, if Messianic Jews and Hebrew Christians are still considered “fair game” for prozelytizing?

2: Just to make sure I didn’t misunderstood what you wrote (probably did - since English is, as you know, not my mother tongue ):
Are you saying that conversion to Judaism is not a matter of salvation for Jews (the “…for us”-part?) or are you saying that Gentiles don’t need to convert to Judaism to be saved?

The latter would fit my understanding of what Rabbinical Judaism teaches better than the former, but I’ve been known to be mistaken, and I’ve heard that where 10 Jews are gathered, 11 opinions are voiced

In the Talmud, it states (Sanhedrin 44a), “The Jew who sins remains a Jew”. That has usually been understood to mean just what it says.

There are three sins that a Jew is supposed to be willing to die rather than commit, and conversion to another religion is one of them. But if a Jew sins even in that way, he can always return if he repents of the sin and chooses to keep Torah again.

It is not true that a Jew who apostasizes is no longer a Jew, but he cannot practice as a Jew. It is comparable to a hockey player in the penalty box.

He is still a hockey player, but for the time being, he cannot play. He is excommunicated from Judaism, just as an excommunicated Catholic remains a Catholic, but cannot receive the sacraments, etc

Jews do not believe in “salvation” the same way Christians do. We do not believe people “go to hell” for not believing as we do. we hold that the righteous of ALL nations have a share in the World to Come. This is also why we do not feel it is necessary for us to convert others…but JEWS ARE required to keep Torah in order to please God.

 

[LutheranDK]

In the Talmud, it states (Sanhedrin 44a), “The Jew who sins remains a Jew”. That has usually been understood to mean just what it says.

There are three sins that a Jew is supposed to be willing to die rather than commit, and conversion to another religion is one of them. But if a Jew sins even in that way, he can always return if he repents of the sin and chooses to keep Torah again.

It is not true that a Jew who apostasizes is no longer a Jew, but he cannot practice as a Jew. It is comparable to a hockey player in the penalty box.

He is still a hockey player, but for the time being, he cannot play. He is excommunicated from Judaism, just as an excommunicated Catholic remains a Catholic, but cannot receive the sacraments, etc

Jews do not believe in “salvation” the same way Christians do. We do not believe people “go to hell” for not believing as we do. we hold that the righteous of ALL nations have a share in the World to Come. This is also why we do not feel it is necessary for us to convert others…but JEWS ARE required to keep Torah in order to please God.

Ok. Can you then explain to me the commonly expressed opinion that Messianic Jews are not only apostates, but has become non-Jews? I’m not saying that it’s your view, I’m saying that it’s the view I’ve encountered most often

But how is it determined who’s righteous, and who’s not, if not from the level of observance of Torah? (which I believe already Rabbi Hillel summed up as Jesus did: With the Shma Israel and “Love thy neighbor as thyself” - or is my memory playing tricks on me?)
What I mean is: If Gentiles are not subject to the Torah, then how is it determined who’s righteous amongst us, and who aren’t?

On another note: What are the two other sins that a Jew is supposed to die before commiting?

A second question, which I’ve thought about for a long time, and whose answer has eluded me:
From a rabbinical Jewish perspective, how can a perfect God demand less than perfection? How can God say on the Last Day:

“Well, you did this and this and this… that was evil, but this and this and this … that was good, and the good outweighs the evil - so the scale tips in the right direction. Enter the Kingdom”?
Because that must be what you say, and my question is: Can a God who is Holy tolerate evil? Or rather: Can evil exist in Paradise, as the case must be if the Christian doctrine of the neccessity of having your sins forgiven is untrue?

Looking forward to your reply

Mark

 

[Sepharad]

I have to try to make this brief, because I have very pressing family concerns offline right now.

I don’t know why some Jews will say that anyone who apostasizes is no longer a Jew. Maybe an incorrect understanding of Jewish law, or maybe they are tired of apostate Jews going around still claiming to be Jews when they obviously have left the religion (but by claiming to be Jews, are giving people the false idea that they are religiously JewISH).

I only know what Jewish law says, that a Jew who sins remains a Jew, just not one in good standing. Just as a Catholic who is excommunicated remains a baptized Catholic, and can always return if they repent, but for the time being, as long as they stay in that state, they are not allowed to receive the sacraments and will go to hell if they die in that state.

The same holds true in traditional Judaism, this is why if an apostate Jew repents and returns, there is no re-entry ceremony in most cases. But they are excommunicated…they cannot be buried in a Jewish cemetery, cannot be married by a rabbi, cannot marry a Jew, cannot be called up for honors to the Torah, etc. And if they die in that state, they will not enter the Olam Ha’Ba (what Christians call heaven).

Jewish apostates are also not trusted. In our long history, some of our worst enemies have been Jews who converted to other religions, esp. those who went to Christianity and then used their new religion’s leaders to enact revenge on the Jewish people for imagined slights. One of the most recent in history was the former chief rabbi of Rome, Israel Zoller. He is reported to have said that if the Jewish community of Rome did not give him his former job back (as chief rabbi), “they would pay for that”.

A few weeks later, he converted to Catholicism. I’m just in the midst of reading a book about it, called, “The Pope’s Jews”.

There have also been other apostates who turned against the Jewish people: Pablo Cristiani, Solomon of Burgos, even Tomas de Torquemada was a a Jewish convert.