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rossum
Guest
The reference for that verse is Shantideva, Bodhicaryavatara Chapter 8 v129.
Indeed.
rossum
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rossum
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billcu1
Guest
“St. Paul saith, “When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done
away.”6 Now mark what is “that which is perfect,” and “that which is in part.”
“That which is perfect” is a Being, who hath comprehended and included all things in
Himself and His own Substance, and without whom, and beside whom, there is no true
Substance, and in whom all things have their Substance. For He is the Substance of all things,
and is in Himself unchangeable and immoveable, and changeth and moveth all things else.
But “that which is in part,” or the Imperfect, is that which hath its source in, or springeth
from the Perfect; just as a brightness or a visible appearance floweth out from the sun or a
candle, and appeareth to be somewhat, this or that. And it is called a creature; and of all
these “things which are in part,” none is the Perfect. So also the Perfect is none of the things
which are in part. The things which are in part can be apprehended, known, and expressed;
but the Perfect cannot be apprehended, known, or expressed by any creature as creature.
Therefore we do not give a name to the Perfect, for it is none of these. The creature as
creature cannot know nor apprehend it, name nor conceive it.
“Now when that which is Perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
But when doth it come? I say, when as much as may be, it is known, felt and tasted of the
soul. For the lack lieth altogether in us, and not in it. In like manner the sun lighteth the
whole world, and is as near to one as another, yet a blind man seeth it not; but the fault
thereof lieth in the blind man, not in the sun. And like as the sun may not hide its brightness,
but must give light unto the earth (for heaven indeed draweth its light and heat from another
fountain), so also God, who is the highest Good, willeth not to hide Himself from any,
wheresoever He findeth a devout soul, that is thoroughly purified from all creatures. For in
what measure we put off the creature, in the same measure are we able to put on the Creator;
neither more nor less. For if mine eye is to see anything, it must be single, or else be purified
from all other things; and where heat and light enter in, cold and darkness must needs depart;
it cannot be otherwise.
But one might say, “Now since the Perfect cannot be known nor apprehended of any
creature, but the soul is a creature, how can it be known by the soul?” Answer: This is why
we say, “by the soul as a creature.” We mean it is impossible to the creature in virtue of its
creature-nature and qualities, that by which it saith “I” and “myself.” For in whatsoever
creature the Perfect shall be known, therein creature-nature, qualities, the I, the Self and the
like, must all be lost and done away. This is the meaning of that saying of St. Paul: “When
that which is perfect is come” (that is, when it is known), “then that which is in part” (to…”
Theologica Germanica
This seems to affirm what every other religious mysticism teaches.
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CrossofChrist
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This is saying that we know God by his grace and not because of our natural capabilities. Divinization or deification doesn’t mean we actually become the essence of God. philvaz.com/apologetics/a124.htm
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TempleofTheSoul
Guest
Thank you for posting the Karaniya Metta Sutta… it is simple yet most profound when trying to live it out.
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marywarfield
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I believe you are misinterpreting the great saint.
At no point did she dare propose that Catholics
become the actual essence of God. Her self emptying
involved making all oriented to His desires- not in actually
being Him. As a wife might be for her husband to order
all to his interests and preferences. But the wife does not
want to BE the husband. Catholics do not strive to BE God.
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billcu1
Guest
No one I believe here is saying anything about being God to my understanding. The point of mysticism is to become “co-creators” with God. Equal and completely like God in all ways. To eventually create worlds and to be the first mover, the prime mover. Like all the buddhas are now. As the buddha Sarasvati (which I am an emmanation of) is now. She is outside of time and sends her emmanations into the three times.Before this can happen Thomism’s “creature nature” What we all the self must be disposed or dispised. Same meaning. Karma is all that’s keeping us what we already are.
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billcu1
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I’m really not quite sure what to say. Then the church is in conflict with itself? I don’t think it’s so much that that Jesus said. “Give only so much to the babes and spare the meat for those mature” (initiated into the mysteries). I don’t think Theologica Germanica is saying we become the essence of God but that there is no other substance other than ours. And we have comprehended all into our substance. Are you asking where is God? Still there I guess and like Sarasvati. All things are her substance and there is no other substance than hers. Kind of mind boggling to the finite mind huh?
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billcu1
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Read the diamond and Heart sutras too.
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billcu1
Guest
“The Scripture and the Faith and the Truth say, Sin is nought else, but that the creature
turneth away from the unchangeable Good and betaketh itself to the changeable; that is to
say, that it turneth away from the Perfect to “that which is in part” and imperfect, and most
often to itself. Now mark: when the creature claimeth for its own anything good, such as
Substance, Life, Knowledge, Power, and in short whatever we should call good, as if it were
that, or possessed that, or that were itself, or that proceeded from it,—as often as this cometh
to pass, the creature goeth astray. What did the devil do else, or what was his going astray
and his fall else, but that he claimed for himself to be also somewhat, and would have it that
somewhat was his, and somewhat was due to him? This setting up of a claim and his I and
Me and Mine, these were his going astray, and his fall. And thus it is to this day.”
Very easy to understand. The key: “still the creature”
turneth away from the unchangeable Good and betaketh itself to the changeable; that is to
say, that it turneth away from the Perfect to “that which is in part” and imperfect, and most
often to itself. Now mark: when the creature claimeth for its own anything good, such as
Substance, Life, Knowledge, Power, and in short whatever we should call good, as if it were
that, or possessed that, or that were itself, or that proceeded from it,—as often as this cometh
to pass, the creature goeth astray. What did the devil do else, or what was his going astray
and his fall else, but that he claimed for himself to be also somewhat, and would have it that
somewhat was his, and somewhat was due to him? This setting up of a claim and his I and
Me and Mine, these were his going astray, and his fall. And thus it is to this day.”
Very easy to understand. The key: “still the creature”
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CrossofChrist
Guest
How is the Church in conflict with herself?
No, it’s in becoming little that we know more.
You’d have to elaborate on what you mean, because the statement implies some form of pantheism (which isn’t Catholic).
From the Catechism:
*296 We believe that God needs no pre-existent thing or any help in order to create, nor is creation any sort of necessary emanation from the divine substance.144 God creates freely “out of nothing”:145
If God had drawn the world from pre-existent matter, what would be so extraordinary in that? A human artisan makes from a given material whatever he wants, while God shows his power by starting from nothing to make all he wants.146*
and again a little later on:
*God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens."156 Indeed, God’s “greatness is unsearchable”.157 *
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CrossofChrist
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We can never be the first mover or the prime mover. By definition that can only be God who is pure actualitas, the One who is Act and upholds all things. At least according to Catholic teaching.
The First Vatican Council taught: “Holy Church believes and confesses that there is one only living and true God, creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect, will, and in every perfection; who being one single spiritual substance, absolutely simple and immutable, must be proclaimed as really and essentially distinct from the world, in himself and of himself most blessed, and ineffably supreme over all things that are outside of himself or that are conceivable”
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marywarfield
Guest
I know of no Catholics now or ever that strove to be
equal to God. Again I believe you misinterpret our saints
Zero would be horrified to have that attributed to them.
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marywarfield
Guest
To elaborate further the only fully human being equal to
God is Jesus Christ. Even His own Mother is not equal to Himself.
Simply because His Divine nature and human soul were entirely
formed by the Holy Spirit and through no action of man.
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billcu1
Guest
Creation yes. The buddhas are beyond creation nor are they a part of it. Catholicism doesn’t get into the real meat of things. It wasn’t meant too. Heaven for example is not the end all but just the beginning. A place where we perfect ourselves more and grow into greater.
“There are no absolutes. Only very skillful means.”
Trust in God. The sacraments help too us catholic/buddhists know this. It helps me that’s for sure. You just have to seek. I don’t know it all. But I strive to do the best I can. Thanks for following.
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billcu1
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When you’re no longer a part of creation you are pure actual without potential as our philosopher said. This is really stepping out there. I don’t expect you to understand. All I can say is seek. As Jesus said “He who seeks will find. And when he finds he will become troubled, then astounded and reign over the entirety.” The church is part of the body. All are not called to this. All you are saying is pure catholicism and as a catholic I cannot argue with that. As a buddhist and seeker I see much more.We can never be the first mover or the prime mover. By definition that can only be God who is pure actualitas, the One who is Act and upholds all things. At least according to Catholic teaching.
The First Vatican Council taught: “Holy Church believes and confesses that there is one only living and true God, creator and Lord of heaven and earth, omnipotent, eternal, immense, incomprehensible, infinite in intellect, will, and in every perfection; who being one single spiritual substance, absolutely simple and immutable, must be proclaimed as really and essentially distinct from the world, in himself and of himself most blessed, and ineffably supreme over all things that are outside of himself or that are conceivable”
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billcu1
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No I didn’t mean the church is in conflict with it’s self it isn’t. What I meant is that Theologica is a Catholic text. Popularized in Martin Luther’s day by him. To use Theologica against church teachings would be using a Catholic text against the church. I’m sure if either of us are wrong, it’s in our interpretation. Not the church and certainly not Jesus.
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billcu1
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I think this page tells what we all should be striving for. I will post the URL is any are interested.
www2.fodian.net/world/be_bodsv.html
www2.fodian.net/world/be_bodsv.html
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marywarfield
Guest
Again this makes no sense. As a Catholic you mustWhen you’re no longer a part of creation you are pure actual without potential as our philosopher said. This is really stepping out there. I don’t expect you to understand. All I can say is seek. As Jesus said “He who seeks will find. And when he finds he will become troubled, then astounded and reign over the entirety.” The church is part of the body. All are not called to this. All you are saying is pure catholicism and as a catholic I cannot argue with that. As a buddhist and seeker I see much more.
have accepted that the Church’s teachings ARE the fullness
of truth and all there is. Yet as a Buddhist you must seek more?
I also do not understand how you entertain both religions
at once as the Church specifically disallows that.
And again you yourself will never be equal to the
Holy Trinity. That is not possible.
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billcu1
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If one is living the life that the Buddha taught one is living exactly what Jesus wants and taught. There is no discrepancy except that which we create. I don’t know really how to explain it. I sounds to me like your doing fine. Forgiveness of sins is certainly a gift. Check out post #59. If that makes sense Great! That’s what Jesus wants. If not maybe your getting a little sidetracked and making things more complicated than they need to be; the church tends to do that sometimes. But that’s not for me to decide. We look at ourselves from within.
God Bless
Oh yes I believe if I’m correct that the Pontiff said that the church is not the end all way of possible salvation. But to understand that one might need to be part of the magisterium.
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marywarfield
Guest
I’m sorry. You would have to provide a valid reference for
the last statement as it is patently false application of the quote.
He never stated the Church did not contain all that is
necessary.
The reason is, you as a Catholic professing her fullness, if the Church, containing within her womb,
the Real Presence of Christ, is somehow deficient and is
NOt the end/be all of salvation, it is a direct accusation
that Christ Himself is somehow deficient as well.
Now why do you suppose a Buddhist would waste his
time becoming equal to a deficient God? Doesn’t that
defeat your purpose? And if as a professing Catholic that the Church
contains all that is necessary, why be Buddhist?
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
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