A Question for Catholics

[Victorious]

A man know nothing about Bible vs. A man knows everything about Bible — Who goes to Heaven? … .we don’t know.

I guess if you have to know the Bible to get to heaven, that rules out all the earliest Christians who lived back before we got the Bible.

 

[Mummybee]

Perhaps your neighbor isn’t comfortable with these discussions (see all the suggested reasons above.) I invite you to attend a Catholic mass yourself to see just how much scripture he’s been getting. Then read the early church fathers and see that’s exactly how they worshipped, too. Nobody questions whether or not they made it to heaven.

 

[BOBKAT]

No! I believe that God gave us His Word to lead us to Jesus Christ and to guild us in our walk with Him. It is your responsibity to study the Bible and let it speak to us. Jereimiah said "thy Word is in my heart as a flaming fire: (20:9) We need to have Gods Word hid in your Hearts, Psalm 119;10 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. Knowing gods word helps us not sin. This is why we Baptist make memorizing scripture so important.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

You do realize that the bible was competed by Catholic Church and that everything we do within our faith as far as doctrine and dogma are concerned have their foundation rooted deep with in the bible. Faithful Catholics are feed on a weekly and sometimes daily basis the very Word made Flesh by the readings that come from the bible and Holy Communion. On the other note as far as that gentleman’s destination is concerned only God knows his heart and will judge him. From what I have read in your post he seems to like routine and that is childlike and how do we really get into heaven? By being childlike maybe we can learn something from his simpleness and his routine which for all we know are guided by his faith. “Blest are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” be very careful of your judgement of others. While we may judge actions we should never judge souls…

God Bless
Kathleen

 

[Golden]

My next door neighbor is a older man that is a widower and lives a quiet live be himself. He was raised Catholic and goes to mass every week. He believes that he is going to heaven because he was baptized and confirmed in the Catholic Church and goes to mass every week. However he knows nothing about what the Bible teaches. I have asked him what the Bible teaches about baptism or other doctrines of the of the Bible and he has no answers at all. In fact he does not even want to talk about Jesus Christ. So when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell?

forever Baptist
allischalmers

You are asking when he dies where will he go, heaven or hell? It is upto God because only God knows what that man really believe.
IMO, I would like to see him atleast in Limbo. Hey, but that’s my opinion and don’t ask me further Qs.

 

[Golden]

In my opinion, whether he discusses it or not, he only has to know and live two things: Love God and love his neighbor. Everything else is an attempt to teach us how to do that. Don’t get bogged down in intellectual details.

If he only has to know and live two things: Love God and love his neighbor, then would you like to define what is Loving God and loving your neighbor?

If he says to God “O God I love you so much” and then to his neighbor “O my beloved neighbor, I love you too very much” then do whatever he likes, then he will be in heaven? or he has to follow some commandments?

 

[Golden]

geezerbob,

What if his neighbor try to rob him, kill him and rape his daughters? Does he have a right to defend his belongings, life and daughters’ honor or he should give his property, life and allow his daughters to get raped by his neighbor in order to love his neighbor?

 

[inJESUS]

If he only has to know and live two things: Love God and love his neighbor, then would you like to define what is Loving God and loving your neighbor?

If he says to God “O God I love you so much” and then to his neighbor “O my beloved neighbor, I love you too very much” then do whatever he likes, then he will be in heaven? or he has to follow some commandments?

when you love God, you can’t do whatever you like and Jesus said that mere words will not take you anywhere.

 

[allischalmers]

God saved us all before we were baptized when Christ died upon the cross, but that doesn’t negate the need for baptism.

Does that mean that God has saved everyone that has ever lived including those that have never believed.

Your desire to love and serve him was a form of baptism–a baptism of desire that might have served you in God’s eyes if you had not been able to be baptized with water, as the Bible instructs us quite clearly to be.

Does that mean that I do not have to be baptized to be saved. If the Bible says that I must be baptized to be saved and I assume that this Gods instruction to us, has God changes the rules. But the Bible says the God is unchangiable.

Actually, all our sins were washed away by the blood of Christ before we were born, but baptism brings the grace of Christ’s sacrifice to us personally, in our time and place.

But I received the grace of Christ sacrifice when I was born again before I was baptized when the Spirit of God witnessed to my spirit that I was a child of God. (Romans 8;16)

What you experienced is the redemptive love of Christ in an awakening to faith that can happen to anyone anywhere, but baptism does what the Bible says it does. It regenerates us and removes sin.

But I was regenerated and my sin were removed when I was born again before I was baptized.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Eden]

But I was regenerated and my sin were removed when I was born again before I was baptized.

You tradition is only 400 years old. Let’s look at what the *Bible *says about baptism as regenerative:

We Are Born Again in Water Baptism

First, look at John 1:32 and you will find that when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

Then read John 3:3,5 - where you will find that Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

Next turn to **John 3:22 **and you will read that after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

Now look at John 4:1 - You will see here another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Move on to **Acts 8:36 **and read about how the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Then in Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” The Bible always links water and baptism.

And in** Acts 22:16** – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Then you have** Titus 3:5-6,** in which Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Now move on to Heb. 10:22 where you will discover that the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

And next is Isaiah 44:3, where the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Finally refer to Ezek. 36:25-27 and see how the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Anima_Christi]

No! I believe that God gave us His Word to lead us to Jesus Christ and to guild us in our walk with Him. It is your responsibity to study the Bible and let it speak to us. Jereimiah said "thy Word is in my heart as a flaming fire: (20:9) We need to have Gods Word hid in your Hearts, Psalm 119;10 Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. Knowing gods word helps us not sin. This is why we Baptist make memorizing scripture so important.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

What makes you assume that “the Word” always refers to the written word of God?? And what about people who can’t even read, do they go to Hell?

 

[wcknight]

Fortunately, we will all be judged on ONE criteria only LOVE, did we love God above all else, and did we love our neighbors.

Answer yes, and you’re in.

Thank goodness, we will NOT have to repeat any Bible verses, magic formulas or phases, no secret handshakes, etc. You don’t even have to buy or have a Book if you don’t want to or can’t afford one. After all how did folks get to Heaven before the printing press ???

 

[allischalmers]

You tradition is only 400 years old. Let’s look at what the *Bible *says about baptism as regenerative:

We Are Born Again in Water Baptism

First, look at John 1:32 and you will find that when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.

Then read John 3:3,5 - where you will find that Jesus says, “Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” When Jesus said “water and the Spirit,” He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).

Next turn to **John 3:22 **and you will read that after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus’ teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.

Now look at John 4:1 - You will see here another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus’ baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.

Move on to **Acts 8:36 **and read about how the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

Then in Acts 10:47 - Peter says “can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people…?” The Bible always links water and baptism.

And in** Acts 22:16** – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

Then you have** Titus 3:5-6,** in which Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Now move on to Heb. 10:22 where you will discover that the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.

And next is Isaiah 44:3, where the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them.
Finally refer to Ezek. 36:25-27 and see how the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.

www.scripturecatholic.com

But I was born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit before I was Baptized How do I know, because I recieved the witness of the Spirit of God. (Romans 8;16)

forever Baptist
allischalmers

 

[Eden]

But I was born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit before I was Baptized How do I know, because I recieved the witness of the Spirit of God. (Romans 8;16)

Did you even read the passages that I provided?

Romans 8:16 does not negate the scriptural witness to the reality of regenerative baptism. It is a passage about the presence of grace in our lives as Christians. But Baptism gives you grace for the first time.

 

[allischalmers]

Did you even read the passages that I provided?

Romans 8:16 does not negate the scriptural witness to the reality of regenerative baptism. It is a passage about the presence of grace in our lives as Christians. But Baptism gives you grace for the first time.

Yes and I have read all othe other verses that say all one needs to do is believe o be saved

allischalmers

 

[jim1130]

Yes and I have read all othe other verses that say all one needs to do is believe o be saved

allischalmers

But you also said that to be saved one must be a member of a TRUE Baptist Church and be a TRUE Baptist. I am afraid I am getting too confused.

 

[dosdog]

Yes and I have read all othe other verses that say all one needs to do is believe o be saved

allischalmers

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FAWORKS.HTM
the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.
faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber( 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing)
Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).
Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses. According to Jesus (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

The objective redemtion is the work of earning a claim to all forgiveness and grace – we do not contribute to that at all, Christ did it for us. The subjective redemption is the process of giving out that forgiveness and grace thoughout all subsequent ages, even today. It is in that that we need to be like Christ to share in the claim He generated.

Our part in the subjective redemption is had by being like Christ in suffering and other things. God likes this as part of His love of good order. Summa I.19.5.c., paraphrased (literal is very crude) says: God in His love of good order likes to have one thing in place to serve as a reason or title for giving the second thing, even though that thing does not really move Him. Hence, in the objective redemption, He was pleased to use the Blessed Mother (whose ability to do anything came from her Son). In the subjective redemption, He uses her, the Saints, and us.

ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EARNSAL.TXT

our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift (James 1:22). But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves

 

[Mommyof02green]

The Catholic Faith is based on the WHOLE Bible.

Baptism according the Bible does not do one thing and one thing only. In Scripture we read that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit.

We know from Scripture that a person receives the Holy Spirit through Baptism.

I noticed that you quoted Romans 8:16
Romans 8:16:

The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God

Romans 8:16 show states that the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit. However the verse does not say WHEN you receive the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t say that this happens before baptism. It doesn’t say that this happened after baptism.

So Romans 8:16, does NOT PROVE that it is possible to receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. However it does NOT PROVE that happens after baptism. So in other words it doesn’t speak about “WHEN” a person receives the Holy Spirit, it just said they do receive the Holy Spirit and what the Holy Spirit does to a person. However it does not state when that happens.

Through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit:
Act 2:38:

Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you will receive the holy Spirit.”

Act 2:38, is very clear that not only will your baptism forgive your sins but you will receive the Holy Spirit. In this one verse we see that Baptism forgives sin and that we receive the Holy Spirit through baptism.

We also see from scripture that a person is saved by Baptism.
1 Peter 3:21:

This prefigured baptism, which saves you now.

We also see from scripture that a person becomes a member of the Body of Christ by Baptism.
1 Corinthians 12:13:

For in one Spirit, we were all baptized into one body

That is why the Catholic Church teaches that Baptism saves us; that Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ; that Baptism washes away sin; and that through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit. (It’s from Scripture)

Now is it possible for a person to receive the Holy Spirit in another way or ways? Yes.

Does Romans 8:16 prove that? In my opinion NO Romans 8:16 does not say when a person receives the Holy Spirit. It just states that the Spirit bears witness with our spirit and we are children of God.

Besides Baptism where does scripture say we receive the HOLY Spirit???
I’m sure you can find a verse that state when we receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eden]

Yes and I have read all othe other verses that say all one needs to do is believe o be saved

allischalmers

So, you are claiming that the Bible contradicts itself? I don’t understand how you can believe that.

And I only see one quote that you provided, Romans 8:16, which does not say that all one needs to do is to believe to be saved. So, can you please provide “all the other verses”?

 

[sandmountainsli]

So, you are claiming that the Bible contradicts itself? I don’t understand how you can believe that.

And I only see one quote that you provided, Romans 8:16, which does not say that all one needs to do is to believe to be saved. So, can you please provide “all the other verses”?

John 3:16
WP

 

[allischalmers]

So, you are claiming that the Bible contradicts itself? I don’t understand how you can believe that.

And I only see one quote that you provided, Romans 8:16, which does not say that all one needs to do is to believe to be saved. So, can you please provide “all the other verses”?

Sure; how about Acts 16;31"and they said,Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be SAVE
Then there is John 20;31 , Acts 13;38, Romans 10;9, 1 Cor 1;21, Heb. 10;39, John 5;24 and John 6;40.

However I want you to understand that I am not debating scripture, I am just stating that fact that I was saved by the power of the Gospel, I was born again by the washing of the water of the Word (Eph 5;26) and the Spirit BEFORE is was baptized.

forever Baptist
allischalmers